Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

[Popiel]

Overall (16h in, trying to do everything I can because that's how I roll) I can confirm what was already stated in this thread many times - this game has flashes of wasted potential, like three times too much prose, and companions are 80% shit. Dump everything into Int, just like the old days, and a lot of win buttons will be given unto you. Because of initiative mechanics battles are basically broken in my opinion.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Dropping mage duels, harsh counters and overpowered items in PoE is not sticking to the original formula.

Eh, there's plenty of seriously overpowered items in PoE. Not many hard counters perhaps, but having items that boost defense vs an ailment by +30 is pretty damn good and should generally be enough.
Mage duels are indeed notably absent.

Nothing like Gram the sword of grief, which drains one level per hit Or Aslyferund Elven Chain which makes you completely immune to unenchanted weapons is in BG2 is in PoE.

Gram: Pretty neat, though the enemies still have to fail the death save. Wonder how often that happens at the Throne of Bhaal levels when you get the level draining effect.
Aslyferund Elven Chain: Immune to mundane. Really? Too bad almost noone uses unenchanted weapons when you get it. Still a good armor for a mage or bard.

Meanwhile in PoE we have among others:
Stormcaller: A fast hunting bow which has a 10% chance to cast Returning Storm on hit when wielded by a Ranger, which does good damage and stuns enemies in a large radius AND attacks with this bow lower enemy resistance to Shock AND it deals Pierce/Shock damage, whichever the enemies resist less. This item is considered unfair by many and some shun using it in their games, since it stunlocks entire crowds indefinitely, while dealing high damage.
Cipher and Chanter also get strong Shock spells from their respective spellbooks on hit.

Steadfast: a sword that grants Outmanouvering passive to Fighters, Chanters and Wizards. Making them target enemy Willpower rather then Deflection (AC), if it's lower. It also gives immunity to Fear.
For other classes it may cast Sunlance on Hit, Champion's Boon (+10 Might, +10 Per & +5DR) on kill or Restore Major Endurance.

Shod-In-Faith: Boots that cast Consecrated Ground when Critically Hit: a powerful aoe heal-over-time, which mostly eliminates the need for individual healing spells.

Armor, Cloak, Shield which grant Retaliate (which stack).

The Unlabored Blade: a dagger with a small chance to cast a powerfull offensive bouncing spell Firebug on Crit. Crits happen very often though, especially for a barbarian who attacks in a huge aoe. Also +20% attack speed, some other spells per rest, up to Mythic quality.

Ryona's Breastplate: Various powerful defensive buffs

St. Ydwen's Redeemer: already mentioned, kills Vessels (undead) on hit. May also cast Pillar of Faith for a Fighter (damage+knockdown), Divine Mark for a Paladin (damage + AC debuff) or Despondent Blows (ToHit debuff) for Barbarians. Plus Revive 1/rest.

Abydon's Hammer: kills Eyeless on crit and many other powers.

Forgemaster's Gloves: Summons Firebrand 3x per rest. Firebrand is a flaming sword which deals purely Fire damage, has much higher base damage and +0,5 Crit damage modifier. Makes a Barbarian's aoe Carnage explode with each attack, like a human fireball. Is buffed by Scion of Flame. Note it was nerfed, because at launch the sword targeted enemy Reflex defence, rather then Deflection (AC), so was completly overpowered vs most enemies.

Many "regular" artifacts Prone on Crit, Stun on Crit and do other nasty stuff. Note Crits are much easier to achiever in PoE then in IE games. You can buff accuracy in relation to enemy (lowered) deflection by roughly 60 pts. And you have effects with 20-30% Hit to Crit conversion.
So I could list many other items that are VERY strong. But I think that's enough for now.

Some of the soulbound stuff's highlight is %age chance to cast spell on hit BG2 has lot more interesting itemization due to hard counters.
just refer mikes rpg center he lists pretty much every equipment in bg2. The 2 i mentioned are just from the top of my head.

Also the highlight of BG2 was the mage duels. Spell Triggers Contingencies and Sequencers anyone? Compared that to neutered spells in PoE. sheesh.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I've got a Planescape: Torment retrospective PDF in my rewards now.

A compilation of stories, design insights and experiences from key members of the Planescape: Torment development team. Features the following contributors:

• Chris Avellone – Lead Designer
• Colin McComb – Designer
• Feargus Urquhart – President
• Scott Warner – Designer
• Tim Donley – Lead Artist & Art Director
• Aaron Meyers – Artist
• Eric Campanella – Artist
• Brian Menze – Artist
• Dan Spitzley – Lead Programmer
• Scott Everts – Technical Designer
• Adam Heine – Scripter
• Dennis Presnell – QA

Do you have anything else about the game you want to call out or talk about?

Chris Avellone:
It's great to see Tides of Numenera pick up the torch - and I wouldn't mind seeing Torment itself continue in the original Planescape universe. Who knows? Maybe there's hope.

Fuck you, man. Fuck you! You know the right words to say to make a guy excited and then just kill it when he wakes up and realizes that no, there's no hope. None. Never was.

P.S. sea sucks at PDF formatting, even more than he sucks at UIs.

 

[Hellion]

Yeah, slogging through this fapping-with-keyboard-think'n-we-are-Planescape shit, and...

Spoiler

I've met the Changing God himself. That was a disaster.

This game is ridiculous. It bores me to no end with descriptions of every single one average Joe and Jane and Xeromorph-whatever-genderless-SJW-shit, but when it comes to meeting with

Spoiler

THE CHANGING GOD

it offers something along the lines of O hai, well, nice meetin' ya I guess, and some random, short questions/aswers? This is... stupid.

This game...

Indeed, was that anti-climactic or what.

It felt like playing Fallout, going to a general store, selling your stuff and then the shopkeeper casually remarks "oh by the way I am the Master of the Mutant Army, would you like to join the Unity?".

 

[Lacrymas]

No, PS:T was focused on you, your tragic condition and the suspicion that something terrible has happened to you one hundred times. Your past memories are about you and your past choices. The game it’s all about the past, because the past contains the key to understand your curse. The problem of ToN is that the main character is weak, and there is no sense of urgency to decipher your past because everything is handed to you on a platter. No matter how you want to present yourself (“I’m the falling star”, etc.), you are just one of the many castoffs, a regular dude. You are practically banal in ToN. That's what ruined the premise.

Well, duh. The memories are just pushing the story forward, it's still all about your choices now. It was good that some of the companions knew your past incarnations, but they were still interested what you were going to do now. Otherwise they wouldn't be with you. There is no way around this, no matter how they try to spin it. We, as humans, can not act from the past or the future, we also can't perceive them. This is why it's impossible to detach yourself from the current state the protagonist is in.

 

[Lurker King]

What bothers me the fucking most is that IT'S 2017. It's been 18 years since Planescape: Torment. And conversations still flow pretty much the same: ask, ask, ask, ask. But NPCs almost never demand answers from you. So it really isn't a conversation, it's basically an interrogation. Two. fucking. decades.

That's a great post. It's idiotic the way they handle not just dialogues, but conversation in general. There are so many innovations at disposal. And the first developer who has the balls to take the opportunity will profit. Think about FO, for instance. What’s the innovation it brings to the table? The use of skill checks. So simple, but makes all the difference in the world. There are so many possibilities in the use of dialogue systems in the way you interact with NPCs and the environment. How about conversation with more than interlocutors at the same time?

 

[Bleed the Man]

Yeah, slogging through this fapping-with-keyboard-think'n-we-are-Planescape shit, and...

Spoiler

I've met the Changing God himself. That was a disaster.

This game is ridiculous. It bores me to no end with descriptions of every single one average Joe and Jane and Xeromorph-whatever-genderless-SJW-shit, but when it comes to meeting with

Spoiler

THE CHANGING GOD

it offers something along the lines of O hai, well, nice meetin' ya I guess, and some random, short questions/aswers? This is... stupid.

This game...

Well, I wouldn't have put it this way, but yeah, all the interactions with the major characters lack any sort of impact. The climax is even worse.

The storyline is incredibly dissapointing, doubly so for a game with Torment in the title.

 

[alkeides 2.0]

Is there any way to go from the Bloom back to the city? Some dialogue seems to imply you can by reference to missing party members but I haven't found a way.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Some of the soulbound stuff's highlight is %age chance to cast spell on hit

Like most of the unique weapons in IWD.

 

[Sigourn]

Four hours into the game, still haven't made it out of the Circus whatever it is called. I'm done with this. It isn't fun. This isn't a game. This isn't a proper novel. It's something that has Torment in the title. It is a setting with a wasted potential, much better suited to a Fallout: New Vegas type of game than this crap we got.

I feel sorry for the people who paid for this, and even more for those who backed it.

 

[Lurker King]

Well, duh. The memories are just pushing the story forward, it's still all about your choices now. It was good that some of the companions knew your past incarnations, but they were still interested what you were going to do now. Otherwise they wouldn't be with you. There is no way around this, no matter how they try to spin it. We, as humans, can not act from the past or the future, we also can't perceive them. This is why it's impossible to detach yourself from the current state the protagonist is in.

But what makes the game special is not your choices now, it’s what they reveal about the past and your enigma. You can act on the present, but what gives meaning and purpose to your present is the past or the future. In this particular case, you don’t have any plans regarding the future beyond knowing your past, because only then you will know who you are in the present. You are actions in the present are just a mean to unveil the past. It’s what is underneath that counts, the constant paranoia and suspicion caused by your ignorance about your past. Your mindset is governed by past events that you can control, but you need to discover.

 

[Bleed the Man]

Is there any way to go from the Bloom back to the city? Some dialogue seems to imply you can by reference to missing party members but I haven't found a way.

No, every previous location gets blocked after leaving, and you don't return. The Bloom is also the last location of the game, you won't return to Sagus after it, or any other place for that matter.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

That's a great post. It's idiotic the way they handle not just dialogues, but conversation in general. There are so many innovations at disposal. And the first developer who has the balls to take the opportunity will profit.

You have literally just spent previous 10 pages raging that developers absolutely can't change the original formula. Now apparently that they're not innovating enough. If you keep doing 180s at this rate you will generate enough electricity to power a small city.

 

[Lurker King]

You have literally just spent previous 10 pages raging that developers absolutely can't change the original formula. Now apparently that they're not innovating enough. If you keep doing 180s at this rate you will generate enough electricity to power a small city.

I guess that expecting nuanced posters that don’t take things personally on the internet is like expecting developers to trying different things on dialogue system. I criticized ToN for trying to be a spiritual successor of PS:T while ignoring the things that made PS:T special in the first place, but I praised the use of skills in dialogues such as scan thoughts. I criticized PoE for trying to be a spiritual successor of IE games (read “BG2 clone”), while ignoring the things that made fans enjoy BG2 in the first place, namely, mage duels, hard counters and imaginative items because the smart ass on the helm wanted to streamline everything because he thought he knew best. Innovations are like everything else. If they are interesting, they are welcome. Spiritual successors must be judged by a specific standard, i.e., how much they manage to simulate the same experiences of previous games. You can’t just take millions in funding promising this and then dismissing the criticisms saying that you are making another game.

 

[Lacrymas]

Just got the focus (the silver tongue one, obviously) and it was very anti-climactic. Fixing the clock was anti-climactic, mostly because it was too easy.

 

[Fairfax]

I've got a Planescape: Torment retrospective PDF in my rewards now.

A compilation of stories, design insights and experiences from key members of the Planescape: Torment development team. Features the following contributors:

• Chris Avellone – Lead Designer
• Colin McComb – Designer
• Feargus Urquhart – President
• Scott Warner – Designer
• Tim Donley – Lead Artist & Art Director
• Aaron Meyers – Artist
• Eric Campanella – Artist
• Brian Menze – Artist
• Dan Spitzley – Lead Programmer
• Scott Everts – Technical Designer
• Adam Heine – Scripter
• Dennis Presnell – QA

Do you have anything else about the game you want to call out or talk about?

Chris Avellone:
It's great to see Tides of Numenera pick up the torch - and I wouldn't mind seeing Torment itself continue in the original Planescape universe. Who knows? Maybe there's hope.

Fuck you, man. Fuck you! You know the right words to say to make a guy excited and then just kill it when he wakes up and realizes that no, there's no hope. None. Never was.

P.S. sea sucks at PDF formatting, even more than he sucks at UIs.

Not surprised he's still suggesting that. He said in one of his presentations that Numenera didn't offer as much creative freedom as he'd hoped.

And the WOTC folks said they're open to licensing Planescape, they just didn't want to deal with Fargo again:

"We would absolutely consider licensing out Planescape, or any of our other great D&D IPs, if we were approached with a proposal," Wizards of the Coast told us through its presumably bushy beard.

"We often get proposals and are actively pursuing opportunities to make great digital D&D experiences.

"Brian [Fargo] suggested Baldur's Gate 3 had proven difficult in the past before we regained our digital rights, so, that probably didn't help the situation."

Fargo was already gone when they lost the D&D license and BG3 was cancelled for unpaid royalties, but BG3 and DA games were already part of a settlement from a previous lawsuit for unpaid royalties, and Interplay handed NWN publishing rights over to Atari for the same reason.

Maybe with Avalon Studios MCA can pitch one of the sequels he had in mind.

A long time ago, I did kick around the idea of two sequels. One was "Lost Souls," an adventure that allowed the player to experience the events surrounding Torment (both past and future) but the Nameless One wouldn't be in it - it would, however, feature Deionarra, some of the members of the player's first party (Xachariah), Fall-From-Grace, Ravel, Trias, and other major characters and see the Planescape universe from a different perspective. This didn't go much beyond a one-page vision statement, though, and I never submitted it for serious consideration.

One I felt less strongly about (but still liked) was "Planescape: Pariah", which allowed the player to take on the role of Dak'kon and try to unify the githzerai and githyanki, but again, that never went past the vision doc stage.

 

[Sizzle]

That's a great post. It's idiotic the way they handle not just dialogues, but conversation in general. There are so many innovations at disposal. And the first developer who has the balls to take the opportunity will profit.

You have literally just spent previous 10 pages raging that developers absolutely can't change the original formula. Now apparently that they're not innovating enough. If you keep doing 180s at this rate you will generate enough electricity to power a small city.

I know, right? It's almost like Lurker King is a moron who knows jack shit about debating (and games in general... or at least ones that aren't AoD ) and can't make a well-thought-out argument (when he's not regurgitating what VD said, that is) to save his life :D

 

[Ivan]

does this game have a YOU SUCK! moment?

 

[Zed]

does this game have a YOU SUCK! moment?

yeah when you launch it

 

[ArchAngel]

That was to be expected since 3/4 of WL2 conversation text was this.

Arguably one could defend WL2 claiming that you role play as an officer of the law, they tend to be pretty inquisitive

In Numa Numa you're just a vaguely brown hobo with a bad haircut

Only if you are also a historian, a stalker and collector of random useless info.

 

[ArchAngel]

What bothers me the fucking most is that IT'S 2017. It's been 18 years since Planescape: Torment. And conversations still flow pretty much the same: ask, ask, ask, ask. But NPCs almost never demand answers from you. So it really isn't a conversation, it's basically an interrogation. Two. fucking. decades.

That's a great post. It's idiotic the way they handle not just dialogues, but conversation in general. There are so many innovations at disposal. And the first developer who has the balls to take the opportunity will profit. Think about FO, for instance. What’s the innovation it brings to the table? The use of skill checks. So simple, but makes all the difference in the world. There are so many possibilities in the use of dialogue systems in the way you interact with NPCs and the environment. How about conversation with more than interlocutors at the same time?

Underrail had situations where they would tell you to fuck off, that they are not here to answer your questions

 

[ArchAngel]

Anyone that is super disappointed with TToN, don't feel to bad, at least No Truce with Furies is coming this year.
In year of PoE we didn't have another IE like to drown our tears (SitS does not count, it is barely IE).

 

[prodigydancer]

read “BG2 clone”

They never said "BG2 clone" even if it's what you wanted to hear. Bashing inXile for cutting their own stretch goals isn't the same as bashing Obsidian for not living up to your false assumptions.

 

[MRY]

This feels a little tangential from the topic though, since there are literally hundreds of adventure games and thousands of RPGs with well defined boundaries between the two....

The obsession about boundaries to the nth degree being what divides the old batch being industry leaders from a bulk of the new badge following foot steps.

Really? If anything, the majority of mainstream games are blurring, rather than adhering to, strong genre lines -- RPG elements have bled into almost every other genre, and the gap between a cinematic FPS with light RPG elements and Mass Effect 2 is much smaller than the gap between RPGs and FPSs in the 90s. Adventure games like the new King's Quest or Dreamfall incorporate console-style platform-adventure elements, Tell Tale's games have abandoned most of the gameplay of adventures, MOBAs blur RPGs and RTS, etc.

Of course, at the same time the early games were blurring boundaries not because developers were doing so deliberately but because the boundaries simply weren't clear. Early adventure games and early RPGs crossed over quite a bit more (crpgaddict has documented lots of this on his blog).

Ultimately, my own view on labels isn't that of Procrustes -- you shouldn't say, "Because this is an RPG, it shall have X and it shall not have Y."* But once the game is complete, if you're looking to categorize it, the best way to do that is to provide a shorthand to give the player some notion of what he's getting. Calling something a "narrative RPG" or an "action RPG" or a "horror adventure" is totally fine -- there's no reason not to heap on modifiers. But saying something is sui generis isn't that helpful to people trying to grasp the game, and I don't think PS:T is truly sui generis -- it's just the greatest of all time in a couple categories and excellent in others, and for that reason stands above other games in its genre.

Anyway, I don't feel particularly dogmatic about it, notwithstanding my many posts. I think flagging for people that PS:T is different from Baldur's Gate is a good thing, I just don't think saying it's an adventure game is the way to do it.

 

[GloomFrost]

What bothers me the fucking most is that IT'S 2017. It's been 18 years since Planescape: Torment. And conversations still flow pretty much the same: ask, ask, ask, ask. But NPCs almost never demand answers from you. So it really isn't a conversation, it's basically an interrogation. Two. fucking. decades.

That's a great post. It's idiotic the way they handle not just dialogues, but conversation in general. There are so many innovations at disposal. And the first developer who has the balls to take the opportunity will profit. Think about FO, for instance. What’s the innovation it brings to the table? The use of skill checks. So simple, but makes all the difference in the world. There are so many possibilities in the use of dialogue systems in the way you interact with NPCs and the environment. How about conversation with more than interlocutors at the same time?

RPG with proper "real" dialogues and conversations already exists. Its called Alpha Protocol. But no Obsidian did not "profit" from it.