Warhammer Total War: Warhammer III

[Raghar]

Well, they jumped shark when they simplified game and map. Do you remember Empire total war? Not only fighting around cities, but also fighting around town and stuff. In WHI they tried hard to make interesting mechanics. For example Vampire Counts could recruit Banshee in towns not only in province capitals, and that created interesting dynamics when players actually discovered Banshee are OP. (And considering massive problems Vampire counts have with walled cities and artillery, banshee are quite important.)

Assassinations in WHI were art of beauty. Experienced agents could get hordes of interesting helpers and tools. And yea, assassinating general before battle was risky but not impossible. Nowadays? They simply gives resurgence to all agents and lords at level 20. So legendary lords are no longer unique by ability to survive assassination attempt out of commission but for short term... normal lords can do it as well. Lords and agents are no longer have only chance to get new one new in rooster per turn (and replace old one), nowadays when you hire all in the rooster, next turn rooster is filled again. So you are no longer in trouble when you go trough agents and lords too fast.
In old game an interesting tactics was to hire a lord in town with walls that was about to be besieged. Even if he didn't manage to recuit new units he could coordinate battle and be MASSIVE help. Then you put him into reserve to save upkeep and have him when needed. Nowadays, tier 3 defense comes with HERO WITHOUT UPKEEP anyway.

From game developer, point of view WH massively devolved during last decade. Devolved both in simulationistic and gamistic parts.

From what I seen in WH3, it's tower defense game, you add a slow tower. You add a lighting tower. You add... They at least tried to create a proper CHAOS WASTELAND in WHI. Nowadays it's quickly colonised by Skaven.

 

[Lacrymas]

Can you really squeeze out 2 different playthroughs and playstyles with any of the demon factions?

No, out of 90% of them definitely not.

But there are close to a hundred of them, so why would you even? That's approaching >1000h territory.

I should've specified that by "faction" I meant race most of the time. Once you've played one high elf, you've played them all and that goes for most races. Even if we are being unreasonably generous and say faction instead of race, this still has massive implications. For one, why is there a tech tree? This is a very good question that I can't answer for myself in the current context of the game. It feels like just a button to press when the UI says it's time to press the tech tree button. Why are there lord skill trees? Same problem as the tech tree, they feel inconsequential. It seems as if this sandbox game is actually pre-planned and you can't deviate from the developer-approved path. Maybe it's just what has unintentionally happened due to the haphazard design philosophy and how the game works consequently, but it feels limiting and stifling.

As for the "just don't use archers" thing, it's really not so simple. The game fights you at every step when trying to use any units besides monsters and archers, it always feels like a compromise and a self-imposed restriction rather than a legit and purposeful playstyle that is supported by the underlying systems.

 

[Sunri]

Preloading right now at least they compressed the game only 65gb, I hope it will at least work.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Assassinations in WHI were art of beauty.

The single most hated mechanic in the history of TW was a thing of beauty? Come on, dawg. Let's not pretend everyone here started with TWW2.

Are you actually recalling the true experience of TWWH1 1.0? Your generals getting wasted by AI agents every single turn was definitely a sort of beautiful thing. The kind of beautiful Nurgle would appreciate. For a long time the most popular WH1 mod was 'Stupid Agents', which was used so that players wouldn't be crying tears of frustration for most of a campaign. The AI would unambiguously beeline for the player, in terms of agent targets, and would make your experience miserable. They would ignore local threats just to fuck with you, specifically. Abominable.

It's not different, that's a huge problem with the WH series in general.

What's the goal? ~20 asymmetrical playstyles? I'm not aware of any strategy game that even attempts this, let alone accomplishes it (CA games most definitely don't), making the critique a bit neither here nor there. Sure, it would be nice, but is it realistic to ask for?

Often with CA games it's not the details, but how they come together that makes or breaks them. Shogun has one playstyle, in truth. In fact, the whole Shogun franchise had the same exact playstyle for every faction, outside of very specific nuances (emphasis on guerrilla units, or siege warfare, for example). Ditto for Empire. Rome 2 has - arguably - two playstyles (settled/nomadic). Medieval 2 more or less the same. It's pretty unquestionable that for faction diversity and playstyle asymmetry TWW2/3 are unparalleled.

Could they have had more or been better? Of course. But these folks have been working for three years (half under Covid lockdowns) and you can tell they've had to cut corners. The Chaos Warrior situation, for example, clearly comes to mind.

With CA and TWWH, specifically, I trust that they're going to make the game far better as it progresses its lifespan. Each faction will get new mechanics, units and sub-factions. The bugs will get ironed out. They've shown as much with TWW2 and they've earned a degree of trust.

Now, if you didn't like TWW2 for the same reasons as TWW3 is being criticized, then chances are you're not going to have your mind changed by the third game and should probably not bother.

 

[Mitleser2020]

As for the "just don't use archers" thing, it's really not so simple. The game fights you at every step when trying to use any units besides monsters and archers, it always feels like a compromise and a self-imposed restriction rather than a legit and purposeful playstyle that is supported by the underlying systems.

High Elves do rely on archers and monsters (for damage dealing), but also have many different types of archers and monsters with each subfactions favoring different army compositions*.
My last Heroic Victory was achieved with an archer army, archers on chariots aka Tiranoc Chariots which was very different from a normal archer-centric army.

*Yes, I know. Fucking Sisters of Avelorn. Use Unit caps to make them less convenient.

 

[Lacrymas]

What's the goal? ~20 asymmetrical playstyles? I'm not aware of any strategy game that even attempts this, let alone accomplishes it (CA games most definitely don't), making the critique a bit neither here nor there. Sure, it would be nice, but is it realistic to ask for?

20 asymmetrical playstyles would be great, yes. A little bit more customization within each race would also be great. You know, having input as a player? As it stands now, half the races are practically unnecessary and don't bring anything new to the table. There aren't enough campaign mechanics to support new races too. Why didn't they port over Troy's resources and administration? Why aren't we seeing more stuff to do on the campaign map itself? Why haven't they expanded the tech tree functionality? Why is city building still so one dimensional? (Well, I can answer that - it's because there's only a single resource type for most races) Why is there global recruitment? A lot of the mechanics which are there actively contradict or cancel each other out.

 

[Lone Wolf]

You know, having input as a player? As it stands now, half the races are practically unnecessary and don't bring anything new to the table. There aren't enough campaign mechanics to support new races too. Why didn't they port over Troy's resources and administration? Why aren't we seeing more stuff to do on the campaign map itself? Why haven't they expanded the tech tree functionality? Why is city building still so one dimensional? (Well, I can answer that - it's because there's only a single resource type for most races) Why is there global recruitment? A lot of the mechanics which are there actively contradict or cancel each other out.

I understood your critique, but I reiterate: I think you're asking for more than they can give, realistically, given development time and scope. WH1 was less ambitious than WH2. WH2 was less ambitious than WH3. There are things they don't have to change as they iterate (underlying engine and toolset, to an extent), but an absolute fuckton does change. Honestly, I've never felt cheated as a paying player by what they're pushing out. I've played every CA TW game since Shogun 1 and the TWWH franchise has been the absolute best value for money. By hour 200 with Rome, you've already seen every major playstyle and faction and are replaying campaigns for proficiency. By hour 200 with TWWH2, you might be done with 4-5/20 factions on offer. It's a project of immense, monumental scope, which is something that Mandalore, specifically, has marveled at in both the TWWH2 and 3 reviews.

In terms of your critique, you're asking for a total, ground-up redesign of the entire game (resource models, tech tree, campaign map gameplay) for twenty separate major factions (and their manifold subfactions, to further differentiate them).

It would absolutely be nice, but I'm not faulting them for not meeting that expectation. It's a huge ask. Do you know of any game that has actually achieved the level of differentiation you're suggesting?

 

[Parabalus]

It feels like just a button to press when the UI says it's time to press the tech tree button. Why are there lord skill trees? Same problem as the tech tree, they feel inconsequential.

Pretty big difference in gameplay depending on how you skill up your LL.

Sure, at level 40 they will converge, but in the early gameplay every skill has a noticeable impact on battles.

As for the "just don't use archers" thing, it's really not so simple. The game fights you at every step when trying to use any units besides monsters and archers, it always feels like a compromise and a self-imposed restriction rather than a legit and purposeful playstyle that is supported by the underlying systems.

Nothing wrong with the occasional all monster army. The also AI does it.

In old game an interesting tactics was to hire a lord in town with walls that was about to be besieged. Even if he didn't manage to recuit new units he could coordinate battle and be MASSIVE help. Then you put him into reserve to save upkeep and have him when needed. Nowadays, tier 3 defense comes with HERO WITHOUT UPKEEP anyway.

You often do this in WH too. WH lords are even more impactful than previous ones.

 

[Average Manatee]

They nerfed the supply lines penalty so having more, weaker armies will be viable as opposed to doomstacks.

 

[Fedora Master]

 

[Lacrymas]

The map in the prologue looks amazing, not gonna lie. A massive upgrade over WH2 and even a slight upgrade over Troy. Is there a way to remove the terrible outlines when selecting characters?

 

[Average Manatee]

Man, campaign map performance is shit. 20 FPS on medium while in battles I get a decent 40. Granted I'm using a 6 year old graphics card at 2k, but still. Game needs separate graphical settings for campaign and battle.

 

[Fedora Master]

 

[Fedora Master]

Observations from the start: Campaign map runs worse somehow. Cavalry and doggies have a much better chance to disengage from melee now. There seems to be something up with the hit boxes for single units and lords, they are hard to finish off even when routing.

E:

 

[Twiglard]

Just having a campaign map where you go around conquering stuff without a retarded gimmick is too much to ask I guess.

Shogun has one playstyle, in truth. In fact, the whole Shogun franchise had the same exact playstyle for every faction, outside of very specific nuances (emphasis on guerrilla units, or siege warfare, for example). Ditto for Empire. Rome 2 has - arguably - two playstyles (settled/nomadic). Medieval 2 more or less the same. It's pretty unquestionable that for faction diversity and playstyle asymmetry TWW2/3 are unparalleled.

Just play Attila with factions you haven't played already FFS. The game has one gimmick common for all European factions: the Huns. When you're WRE, you have an immense border to hold all across Germania, Britain and some Pannonia. So you have to scout it against the g*rm vermin and keep an army or two there, prevent Britain from being captured by the subhumans that could let them launch even more attacks across an even wider area. If the Huns come through Pannonia, it's getting full WRE stacks damaged through the OP horse archers and cavalry. Forget about just using pila throwers as against everything else. Then come reconquer the African coast and some of the lost ERE territory. You can also abandon Pannonia for good to reduce the attack surface against g*rms and Huns. Hell, in that case you might even end up in a WRE/ERE/Hun alliance like I did.

And defending sieges with garrisons is actually tense and fun. There's an achievement for getting 1k kills with a single unit. Who's gonna get it? The most lowly, yet heroic Scout Equites cavalry during siege battles. Then there are naval garrisons that can also save the day in a pinch.

Then you have factions like the Saxons of Franks. The Huns will come for you, so conquer Britain and some of the coast a couple hundred years early. You can chill there. Try getting a decent, rich thunk of Hispania at that, too.

With the ERE you can cheese it by abandoning Constantinople and get the whole of Africa instead, leaving you largely unmolested. Or just hold it all through the power of (((banking))), like it should be done.

Add to that the punitive public order, sanitation and food mechanics (seasons + each region has to produce food) and it gets even better than just spamming buildings in the optimal order.

So not only is this metagame varied while being derived from very few fundamental mechanics, but it's also very close to what happened in the 5th century. CA has never reached that level since.

 

[Aemar]

 

[Lacrymas]

In terms of your critique, you're asking for a total, ground-up redesign of the entire game (resource models, tech tree, campaign map gameplay) for twenty separate major factions (and their manifold subfactions, to further differentiate them).

Well, not really. Only kind of. I wanted to see more done with the factions in WH3 at least. After Troy, the factions here feel barebones and they contradict the established-by-this-game lore. The Mings, Elsa, and Rasputin are at odds with each other, yet you don't see that mechanically at all, which not only leads to ludonarrative dissonance it also leads to bland mechanics. Why does Rasputin have access to the Ice Court which he hates to the bone and considers heretics? Why aren't the Mings fighting over the Xu Wing compass? This lack of tension is lame.

 

[Fedora Master]

Just having a campaign map where you go around conquering stuff without a retarded gimmick is too much to ask I guess.

Shogun has one playstyle, in truth. In fact, the whole Shogun franchise had the same exact playstyle for every faction, outside of very specific nuances (emphasis on guerrilla units, or siege warfare, for example). Ditto for Empire. Rome 2 has - arguably - two playstyles (settled/nomadic). Medieval 2 more or less the same. It's pretty unquestionable that for faction diversity and playstyle asymmetry TWW2/3 are unparalleled.

Just play Attila

 

[zapotec]

Trying ogre kingdom, i think the gameplay of this total war series is getting old fast for me. Probably refund soon.

 

[Twiglard]

Until the new ME gets released and the game gets solidly patched, this is strictly worse than WH2 with yet another factions. I have multiple yet unplayed WH2 factions so no point in buying WH3 now.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

So uh, does Warhammer 3 really need 120 gigs space? Because that's ludicrous even by today's standards.

 

[Fedora Master]

So the Demon Prince gets minor versions of all the god's features. My guy can use teleport stance, plagues that give vanguard deployment (!) and the more battles = more power thing from Khorne.

e:

That's some deep lore. Im surprised they even use the guy, fairly certain he belongs to the same guy who came up with Malal

 

[Mitleser2020]

So uh, does Warhammer 3 really need 120 gigs space? Because that's ludicrous even by today's standards.

Blame Immortal Empires.

192 provinces/508 settlements are in the game file of TWW3, according to reddit.
Sounds too good to be true, as it means a proper Lustria/Southlands like in the Vortex map.

Spoiler

 

[Fedora Master]

There absolutely is something wrong with the campaign map performance. I'm getting sub 30 FPS for no reason. Battles run fine though.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Denuvo maybe? Warhammer 2 had that and it also had some horrendous perfomance issues.