Company News Troika Demise Confirmation

[Volourn]

Half those companies I don't evenr ecoginze... i guess I ain't hardcore enough..

 

[Stark]

Flintligin, here's an example where it could still be good news: They found a publisher that accepted their post apocalyptic game idea and they are waiting for the deal to fully go through before posting on the status of Troika. Then they can start hiring talent as needed to start actually creating the game. They might not want to comment too early for fear of screwing the pooch.

that sounds too good to be true. if that's the case they wouldn't be needing to sell off the furnitures and computers, but hold out until the deal is confirmed/rejected.

 

[Kuato]

Responsibilty for running a sucessful company goes to management

Responsibilty for running a company out of business goes to mismanagement

The People in charge have to be held accountable thats what they get paid big $$$ for

As cold as it may sound is that so hard to accept?

Ha, and there is no luck involved? I have started two companies, and I know better than that. One backstabbing customer or lawsuit or dry spell and it is game over in the software world.

It is different to run a business when the industry is in an upswing than when it is practically dying.

I never said anything about how hard or easy it is to run a company, and luck does not run a company... people ...run companies they make hard choices and tough decisions and sometimes they are good and sometimes they are bad, there are always risks and things can and will go bad but there also exists something called good business management to be prepared for when things will get tough. If your talking about opportunity Troika has had some of the best to get the projects it did and that wasn't good luck They founded the company to be an rpg maker and completely capitalized on being The makers of Fallout for all that it was worth. now Arcanum, TOEE and Vampire all had great potential but not one them is going to see a sequel. As noble as cause as the company has to stay afloat it has to make money.

They had three Golden Opportunities thats 2 more than most get and if they were still struggling to hold the company together after three big projects is it really just bad luck.

Having Bad luck on one project ok Ill give you that

Having Bad Luck On all three projects Maybe Im all alone here but Im not buying it

Luck is a poor excuse to dodge major responsibilites

I have respect for a person who accepts responsiblity and learns from mistakes and none for a person who will put more effort into covering up mistakes than correcting them

 

[Vault Dweller]

...there also exists something called good business management to be prepared for when things will get tough.

I'm curious, have you ever run a company and thus speak from experience or do you talk about things you don't fully understand? I have, and all that speech about people, hard choices, and tough decisions sounds like a lot of naive bullshit to me.

Example A: Troika makes Arcanum, Sierra decides to sit on it for 6 months (or what was it?) and localize the fuck out of it while everyone is pirating the game. As a result, both the flagship title and the company are fucked. One can say that that's where the downfall of Troika has begun.

If your talking about opportunity Troika has had some of the best to get the projects it did and that wasn't good luck

Some of the best? Like what? 1.5 years to make ToEE when an average dev time for a decent game is 2-3 years? Activision not paying them? Wow, great opportunities. If Troika survives, that would be "despite of" not "because of "

They founded the company to be an rpg maker and completely capitalized on being The makers of Fallout for all that it was worth.

Capitalized? How about using words you actually understand?

They had three Golden Opportunities thats 2 more than most get and if they were still struggling to hold the company together after three big projects is it really just bad luck.

More bullshit.

 

[Fintilgin]

Flintligin, here's an example where it could still be good news: They found a publisher that accepted their post apocalyptic game idea and they are waiting for the deal to fully go through before posting on the status of Troika. Then they can start hiring talent as needed to start actually creating the game. They might not want to comment too early for fear of screwing the pooch.

That'd be great, huh? :D

But I have a hard time seeing it if the fire-sale e-mail is real. They'd lose a lot of money if they had to repurchase all their equipment. I suppose they might just be scaling back their operations to a single team, selling excess stuff and moving to smaller digs, but then there's the whole:

LIQUIDATION SALE

After 7 exciting years, and 3 published games, Troika Games is closing its doors forever!

I'm a preaty optimistic fellow, but even I'm having a hard time finding the silver lining there.

 

[Fez]

People were coming onto the offical Arcanum boards and asking for technical and walkthrough help with the game, months before it was released.

That was one of the many stupid mistakes that have made those publishers famous. After a start like that, it must have been badly crippled.

Saint will probably remember more of that insanity, I remember he posted there.

 

[Volourn]

The bottom line here in spite of the bullshit is that it is Troika's rrsposnibilty they are having problems and seemingly are on their way out. Period. Fanboys like VD cna make exuses all he wants; nothing changes the fact that the responsibilty for Troika's success or failure lies on Troika.

Game over. Until the next fanboy tries to blame anyone BUT Troika.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm not a fanboy, Volly. The trend from Arcanum to a DnD module to a first person action RPG is not something to be excited about. If Troika survives, I doubt they would be willing to make a hardcore RPG like Arcanum in the near future.

However, acting like a moron and blaming Troika EXCLUSIVELY is fucking stupid and you know or should know it.

 

[Taoreich]

Some of the best? Like what? 1.5 years to make ToEE when an average dev time for a decent game is 2-3 years? Activision not paying them? Wow, great opportunities. If Troika survives, that would be "despite of" not "because of "
.

Partially true. Your statement suggests that it would be "in spite of" a series of unforuntate events (to borrow a phrase). but your example, the ToEE timeline, was not a scenario in which Troika was some defenseless pawn. From all accounts, it did not happen that Atari and Troika agreed to create and distribute a D&D game, with Troika only later discovering that the evil wizard Atari had surreptitiously added a "it must be done in 18 months" clause in the contract. I believe it was more like; Atari said "would you like to make a D&D game in 18 months?" and Troika said "hell yeah!" As for the Activision non-pay issue, it has still yet to be reported by anyone whether this is true, and if so, what the circumstances surrounding it are.

Troika may not be regarded as the whore that Bio is, but it is more than disengenuous to try and portray them as some hapless victim. There's plenty of blood on their hands, most of it their own.

 

[Taoreich]

However, acting like a moron and blaming Troika EXCLUSIVELY is fucking stupid

The above notwithstanding, if this is your position, then we're not too far apart in our views

 

[Vault Dweller]

From all accounts, it did not happen that Atari and Troika agreed to create and distribute a D&D game, with Troika only later discovering that the evil wizard Atari had surreptitiously added a "it must be done in 18 months" clause in the contract. I believe it was more like; Atari said "would you like to make a D&D game in 18 months?" and Troika said "hell yeah!"

The real question is "was Troika in position to turn down the offer?". I don't think that anyone doubts that given a choice and enough time from the start they would have preferred to make a different game.

As for the Activision non-pay issue, it has still yet to be reported by anyone whether this is true, and if so, what the circumstances surrounding it are.

Well, one fact seems to be true - everyone was laid off. Bloodlines got decent reviews overall, so I doubt that it tanked. The only explanation is that Activision is not paying them. The only questions that matter at this point are when did they stop paying and would they pay the royalties as they are supposed to in the near future.

Troika may not be regarded as the whore that Bio is, but it is more than disengenuous to try and portray them as some hapless victim. There's plenty of blood on their hands, most of it their own.

They won't be the first company killed/screwed by publishers, that's for sure.

The above notwithstanding, if this is your position, then we're not too far apart in our views

It is my position.

 

[Volourn]

"However, acting like a moron and blaming Troika EXCLUSIVELY is fucking stupid and you know or should know it."

Only a fanboy would try to blame others for thier object of effections' mistakes. Troika is SOLELY to blame for their problems. Everything that went wrong (or right for that matter) is 100% based on THEIR decisions. Period.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Volly, you are embarrassing yourself.

 

[Volourn]

No. The fanboys are. Trying to blame others for Troika's mistakes.

Atari, Activiision, and others have made mistakes; but they are their mistakes. Troika is responsible for their own mistakes. It's only the crybabies like you who think otherwise. But, hey, keep spinning, I'm sure there's enough people guillible enough to believe that there was some conspiracy by the three publishers to bring down the Troikian Gods.


R00fles!

 

[Vault Dweller]

Atari, Activiision, and others have made mistakes; but they are their mistakes. Troika is responsible for their own mistakes.

True, but every game is a ... dig this!... combined product of both developer and publisher. Success/failure of a game depends on both developers and publishers, and it affects both developers and publishers. I'm surprised I have to explain that to you.

 

[DarkSign]

Having run a company myself (more than one at the same time actually) I can say that the responsibilty is by far on the shoulders on the shoulders of Troika.

I see where VD is going by saying that reliances on business partners and market forces can have an effect on the company. That cant be denied by anyone who has witnessed a business tank based on the shifting of the market winds alone.

However...the vast majority of the problem comes from the management most of the time.
Either they didnt diversify enough to be safe, they didnt have enough projects coming in or in the pipeline, they didnt have enough startup capital /it wasnt managed right, or ...in the event they got screwed by a partner they didnt handle their legal issues correctly.

Im going to miss Troika, but management is in place for a reason.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Either they didnt diversify enough to be safe

It's not a coffee house that should have served tea too, it's a game developer and developing a game takes many people, a lot of time, and a lot of money. Also, Troika did try to diversify, they've made 3 very different games. They've tried an original setting - Arcanum, Sierra fucked it. Then they've tried a safer and more popular DnD game, then they've got a popular FP engine and a somewhat popular license. You can't blame them for not trying different things.

they didnt have enough projects coming in or in the pipeline

Depends on publishers, not developers. They did made a new engine for that PA game.

they didnt have enough startup capital

Yeah, those stupid bastards. I would never understand why anyone who isn't a billionaire would think of running a business :shock:

 

[Taoreich]

Yeah, those stupid bastards. I would never understand why anyone who isn't a billionaire would think of running a business :shock:

Now you're just being silly, or an apologist. Capital Investment, Profit & Loss, these things are basic principals of business. In order to succeed, one must have the foresight/ability to coordinate the appropriate amount of start-up funds (either through independant means, private investors, CI firms) and then manage P&L accordingly. Neglecting either constitutes a deliberate increase in risk of the failure of the business plan which equates to increased responsibility on the part of the company's principals ; not less, as you seem to describe.

In other words, if Troika gambled the fate of the company on these projects, regardless of their circumstances, the vast majority (if not all) of the onus of the result of the gamble falls upon them, not the publishers. Don't blame Vegas if you lose your shirt at the roulette wheel

 

[DarkSign]

It's not a coffee house that should have served tea too, it's a game developer and developing a game takes many people, a lot of time, and a lot of money. Also, Troika did try to diversify, they've made 3 very different games. They've tried an original setting - Arcanum, Sierra fucked it. Then they've tried a safer and more popular DnD game, then they've got a popular FP engine and a somewhat popular license. You can't blame them for not trying different things.

Still they didnt diversify enough or pick the right instruments/genres to diversify into. Hell I put people into zero coupon bonds when the bond market is low-yield. Thats because I know how to make the counter-intuitive choice. No one is saying its easy...but its still the job of management.

Depends on publishers, not developers. They did made a new engine for that PA game.

And Troika has no sales department? Just out of the blue they get development deals? 100% bullshit. Its their job to keep money coming in the door. Its their job to go drum up business or the doors close.

Yeah, those stupid bastards. I would never understand why anyone who isn't a billionaire would think of running a business :shock:

Thats a bullshit comment and you know it. At least you should know it. I see corporate finance deals where people think they can get by with as little money as possible all the time. They think...oh I dont want to go too much in debt so I wont ask for too much money. I can get a second round of financing. But it never happens. Im not saying everyone gets to start with unlimited funds. Its just a fact of life that it takes money to make money. We live in a finite world. Perhaps the amount of money that the funded the business just wasnt enough to sustain them over the long haul.

Quit taking cheap shots. Im going to miss Troika as much as anyone...and Ive even admitted that market forces/business partners can have an effect on business. But management takes the fall. Sorry.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Now you're just being silly, or an apologist.

My point was that it's silly to blame them for not having enough money to survive.

Capital Investment, Profit & Loss, these things are basic principals of business. In order to succeed, one must have the foresight/ability to coordinate the appropriate amount of start-up funds (either through independant means, private investors, CI firms) and then manage P&L accordingly. Neglecting either constitutes a deliberate increase in risk of the failure of the business plan which equates to increased responsibility on the part of the company's principals ; not less, as you seem to describe.

It's not like someone would refuse money or investments. In fact, that's what publishing is all about - short term investments into developers. Sometimes the start up capital is abysmal or not available. That doesn't mean that people shouldn't try or should be blamed for failing if they did. Overall though, Troika has been in business for 7 years and made 3 games that despite all the criticism are much better than most of the garbage we see on the shelves.

In other words, if Troika gambled the fate of the company on these projects...

That's just how it goes, that's the nature of business. Any business. You start a business, offer some products or services, and hope that people will buy them. If they don't, you are pretty much out of business.

 

[dojoteef]

I have to side with Volourn again on this issue... What the hell is happening to me? Vault Dweller, you are definitely making excuses on Troika's behalf based on unfounded assumptions. When someone points out that Troika made mistakes you say yeah, but that's not what caused their situation, it was the publisher's fault.

For every excuse you make up there is also a perfectly valid alternative that puts the blame squarely on Troika's shoulders. We can debate this all day, but without hard evidence there can be no resolution.

I'd just like to state the reasons for the assumptions I make. If anything these are what you should try to refute, because the assumptions I've made based on these facts are very probable. So without further ado:

• The idea that the publisher pulled funding is a bit bogus. The publisher is not going to open itself to legal action for breach of contract. Thus something else must have happened.
  • A likely possiblity: Troika ran low on funding during the project and ended up asking for more funding to finish the project, thus when the project ended they weren't paid for the final milestone because they had already recieved the money set forth in the contract.
• The fact that Troika has supposedly been screwed over by three different publishers is a very dubious claim. Is it more likely that Troika has goofed or that every publisher Troika has worked with has screwed them over?
  • A likely possibility: Troika negotiated the terms of the contract with each publisher, but had difficulty keeping it's end of the bargain due to not correctly estimating the time, money, etc that was needed to complete the project. Whether or not the terms of the contracts were fair or not, ultimately Troika accepted those terms. They should have modified the projects to fit the terms accordingly.
• Troika has stated on a number of occassions that they did have feature creep. This is a big blunder on Troika's part especially coupled with the fact that two of their products have been characterized as buggy. Should they have been adding more features to the initial project specification or should they instead have used that time to try to discover and squash bugs?
• I'm not even going to go into the fact that after ToEE was released in such a buggy state, that they should have fixed those bugs as quickly as possible, even without monetary compensation if needed in order to save face with the gamer community. The point being, games that are either exceptionally well made or particularly poorly made get noted in a player's mind, while those that are just okay don't tend to stand out. As a gamer, most people will note the names on the box and associate that with a poor product. That doesn't mean just the publisher, that means all the names on the box. And for those that read reviews, reviewers don't tend to gloss over those sorts of facts. All this leads to potentially lower sales.

So what do you say Vault Dweller? Do you care to comment on these points that I have enumerated?

 

[Volourn]

"So what do you say Vault Dweller? Do you care to comment on these points that I have enumerated?"

VD's cumback: It wans't Troika's fault. It was the Big Bad Darth Publisher's fault.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Still they didnt diversify enough or pick the right instruments/genres to diversify into.

It's easy to sit and bitch. They are an RPG developer. They made 3 very different games. Sierra fucked them with Arcanum, and it looks like Activision fucked them with Bloodlines. Doesn't seem to be a question of diversity to me.

And Troika has no sales department? Just out of the blue they get development deals? 100% bullshit. Its their job to keep money coming in the door. Its their job to go drum up business or the doors close.

Don't you make it sound a little too easy? "You! Get off your lazy ass and keep money coming in the door! You! Hold the door wide open!" Like I said, they did get 3 contracts, and it looks like they were fucked in 2 cases, which is enough to put them either on hold or out of business. Your comment would have been valid if they were open for 7 years and failed to get a single contract.

Its just a fact of life that it takes money to make money.

And have I disputed that fact? It does take money and in gaming industry this money comes from publishers. Now, I'm neither a banker, nor a developer, so honestly I have no idea how easy it is for a game developer to get an independent financing. If you know, not if you can guess or heard, but know for a fact, then tell me, and I'll take your word for it, and maybe even learn something. Otherwise....

The only fact I know is that there aren't too many independent developers out there. Everyone depends on publishers, and there's got to be a reason for that.

But management takes the fall. Sorry.

You would have to prove that with something other than "maybe they fucked up somewhere".

 

[Briosafreak]

Vault Dweller, you are definitely making excuses on Troika's behalf based on unfounded assumptions.

The problem here is that you are ALL making excuses or acusions based on unfounded assumptions.

 

[dojoteef]

The problem here is that you are ALL making excuses or acusions based on unfounded assumptions.

Not true. I'm basing my on the facts that I mentioned. True they are not provable without further information, and I stated that in my post. I told Vault Dweller to then weigh in with his opinion on the different points that I set forth and show me where he gets his conclusions from. That's much different than basing claims on an assumptions such as "Activision screwed Troika over".