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Game News Ultima and Gold Box inspired RPG Code of the Savage is now on Kickstarter

V_K

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So far I have been developing the game under the assumption that the main character has a set name and appearance (A male called Naracus), Having said that, I am on the fence about whether or not to allow character customisation. If there is a demand for that, I't definitely something I can add. The only problem I foresee in that regard, is if the player is able to choose the characters gender, it may complicate certain interactions with NPCs...
I'm not talking about this fluff, I'm talking about there being barely any stats/skills (unless I missed something).
 

Jinn

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I'm not talking about this fluff, I'm talking about there being barely any stats/skills (unless I missed something).

This is unfortunately what has been keeping me from pledging too. Love the looks of pretty much everything, but there seems to be a lack of depth when it comes to stats and mechanics. Is this something that you plan on fleshing out more during development time?
 

Shilandra

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This is the game I would love to play.
I would love to contribute something however, why is the money necessary to completing this project? Can anyone shed light on this?

I will add this to the Kickstarter page soon. This is certainly something I neglected, and shouldn't have. But to give you a brief overview: A large chunk of the money will be taken in taxes, and another big chunk will go into marketing. I'd love to be able to hire a professional to create flashy videos for the game for marketing purposes; which include professional voice overs/actors. This is an area where my skills are woefully lacking (as you can see from the KS video), and it is not something I can do without backing. I struggle to make ends meet as it is :P

I wonder what part of this was influenced by the Gold Box games. I didn't really see anything reminiscent of them in the video.

The gold box games were not so much the inspiration game play, rather the fact that they were what got me into the fantasy genre. The old Eye of The Beholder games were largely the influence for the character portraits (although they don't look too similar). Also there is gold in the game, and boxes.

Yeah, I was thinking it might be the visual size and posture of the characters.
The game also reminds me a bit of SSI's Dark Sun RPGs (that font)

Dark sun is def an inspiration to me. Particularly the setting.

I get the desire to make a proper Ultima clone, but why did he decide to copy the worst parts of it as well (e.g. the next-to-nonexistent character system)?

So far I have been developing the game under the assumption that the main character has a set name and appearance (A male called Naracus), Having said that, I am on the fence about whether or not to allow character customisation. If there is a demand for that, I't definitely something I can add. The only problem I foresee in that regard, is if the player is able to choose the characters gender, it may complicate certain interactions with NPCs...

Is the video the only example of combat out there for the game right now? The system looks kinda classless right now. What does leveling up and growing stronger look like?

As for character customization you should totally go for it! And if being able to choose your gender changes how you interact with certain npcs then that's great. Even more reactivity for players to experience along with the customization. Lord knows gender based reactivity isn't used nearly enough even back in the day so take the complications and turn it to your advantage. Im sure there are plenty of people who would look forward to that.
 

Geoff Jones

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Don't sell yourself short, I've seen far worse. The video does a good job of telling you everything you need to know about the game. It's actually the text part of the Kickstarter pitch that's a bit weak, but the video largely compensates for that.

Thanks and understood. Ill work on it :)

There's a lot I see here that I like.
However I'm likely going to pass due to this: Deep and disturbing quandaries underpin the driving force of the game.
A lot of cRPG gamers love that stuff and more power to them.
I'm personally somewhat turned off by it these days. Everyone talks about the great games of the 80s and 90s, etc. One of things about most of those games that appealed to me was the clarity of purpose on behalf of the heroes. I read and game, etc. to escape the real world. I don't mind clearly defined good and evil in entertainment., or having good actions taken with clear motives not resulting in some "gotcha" moment because the heroes are too dense to understand consequences.

I'm with you there. I like playing those types of games as well. While the player does have a clear purpose; For this game I did want to stay away from the obvious and overtly good and evil. It's the one thing that I can't compromise on, so I understand if you are not keen on it. Hopefully when the game is released you can reevaluate whether or not its something you might be interested in.

I'm not talking about this fluff, I'm talking about there being barely any stats/skills (unless I missed something).
This is unfortunately what has been keeping me from pledging too. Love the looks of pretty much everything, but there seems to be a lack of depth when it comes to stats and mechanics. Is this something that you plan on fleshing out more during development time?

Totally agree that the stats are a little thin at the moment. Admittedly the stats system has seen the least development time so far, and its definitely something I will be fleshing out and expanding on. I'm very open to suggestions into what people would like to see in that department.

Is the video the only example of combat out there for the game right now? The system looks kinda classless right now. What does levelling up and growing stronger look like?
As for character customization you should totally go for it! And if being able to choose your gender changes how you interact with certain npcs then that's great. Even more reactivity for players to experience along with the customization. Lord knows gender based reactivity isn't used nearly enough even back in the day so take the complications and turn it to your advantage. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would look forward to that.

Yes and the moment it's the only example and it does need a lot of work. Currently the levelling system is fairly standard. Gain experience , reach the next xp tier, gain a level, get 3 stat points to distribute, which will effect player damage, dodge ability, attack speed, mana points and mana regeneration. I plan on adding a separate stats window that is switchable between the paperdoll and the stats report. This will contain far more detail about the player, stats and current condition such as hunger level, buffs and debuffs etc.
 
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How about the fonts / UI? To my taste they are a bit hipster(?) indie game looking rather than oldschool. Is there a possibility to reskin it?
 

V_K

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Totally agree that the stats are a little thin at the moment. Admittedly the stats system has seen the least development time so far, and its definitely something I will be fleshing out and expanding on. I'm very open to suggestions into what people would like to see in that department.
Well, at the very least you could add an Ultima Underworld-like skill system.
 

Max Edge

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Why that all "spiritual successors" looks like cheesy rip-made by poor, autistic child?
 

Infinitron

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IMO making a systems-light "adventure RPG" is a legitimate design choice. Common phenomenon: Grognards demand super-complex systems and then complain that gameplay is tedious and their choices don't really matter.

You might want to check out Unknown Realm, a more distinctly retro project but one with a similar vision to yours: https://www.kickstarter.com/project...wn-realm-an-8bit-rpg-for-pc-and-commodore-64/

They're doing some interesting things with their character system while still keeping it fairly simple.
 

Infinitron

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IMO making a systems-light "adventure RPG" is a legitimate design choice. Common phenomenon: Grognards demand super-complex systems and then complain that gameplay is tedious and their choices don't really matter.
Black-and-white thinking much? Grognardy and nonexistent aren't the only options out there.

That is of course true. But it seems that Geoff hasn't thought much about character systems (to the point that he initially assumed people were talking about visual customization when the term was mentioned) and that he's primarily an Ultima fan for whom complex character systems aren't really part of the vision.

Which means that there's a danger of going down the road of mindless cargo cult design if he just tries to cram in a bunch of stats. So I think arguing for caution is warranted, and looking at what other similar games are doing would be a good idea.
 

sstacks

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Regardles of whether I'm personally interested in this game or not, I would like to see it made because a) dev is not asking for much via KS and 2) it woudl be a good addition to the current Kickstarter Age of cRPGs. I promoted on social media, brought it to the attention of Matt Barton, etc.

Good luck dev.
 

SausageInYourFace

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People should also remember that Ultima had barely any character system in place either, I can't remember ever paying any attention to the numbers other than HP in like four games I played. Didn't much hurt my enjoyment.
 

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SausageInYourFace

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What do you think of the lightweight character system in the early M&Ms, V_K? I understand you like those games too.

Early Ultima felt very similar to those games for me. A complex character system (or any system, really) to my mind isn't a good in itself, it depends on what the games want to achieve and how it interacts with the other systems of the game. If early M&Ms and Ultima would have had complex character systems (and presumably as a result longer drawn out battles) it would've distraced from the core of the games which in both cases is exploration. In fact, Ultima was dangerously close to that, hence why I always say that the combat continously improved from 4 to 7, because even turn based combat is not inherently a good in itself. In the same vein, I just disagree with the notion that the character system was the worst part of Ultima, it was what it needed to be. (same for M&M)

In any case, if this game wants to achieve to feel like the early Ultimas I'd find not only unneccessary but possibly counterproductive to slap complex systems on top of it that might just distract from the core gameplay.
 

Strange Fellow

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
In any case, if this game wants to achieve to feel like the early Ultimas I'd find not only unneccessary but possibly counterproductive to slap complex systems on top of it that might just distract from the core gameplay.
The game clearly isn't going for the early Ultima feel, though, but rather VII (and to a lesser degree VI). I'll take the combat in V over the one in VII any day of the week.
 

V_K

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What do you think of the lightweight character system in the early M&Ms, V_K? I understand you like those games too.
If you mean M&M1-2, I haven't played those. If you mean M&M3-5, they're more in the "good for what it is" category for me. I think the character system is ok (though could do with less bloat), but I don't like the level and quest design.
If early M&Ms and Ultima would have had complex character systems (and presumably as a result longer drawn out battles) it would've distraced from the core of the games which in both cases is exploration.
See, for me, a good character system (and a good RPG in general) is not about crunching numbers in combat but about facilitating different playstyles - which naturally extends to exploration aspects. And in a party-based games, it's also about defining the roles of party members. M&M took care of the latter by having a class system in place, while in most Ultimas the Avatar (and essentially companions as well) was a jack of all trades. It was still kinda ok, since the interactivity of the gameworld allowed for some creative approaches, but I somehow doubt Code of the Savage will have the same level of interactivity. But generally, you need a little bit of numbers to define your character's role and how he will interact with the gameworld.
 

SausageInYourFace

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I'll take the combat in V over the one in VII any day of the week.

I don't understand why people keep saying that even though I recognize I am in the minority here. Combat was slow and easy and non-tactival (precisely as a result of the shallow character system, actually) and as a result it was boring and distracted from what made the game actually fun. It was an improvement over U4 because it speeded things up through the ability to deactivate characters, which again only shows that the combat was actually pretty pointless for most of the game. I take the gain in speed U6 and U7 offered. Much like I take M&Ms (3-5) 'press A to win' combat without feeling the need to ask for anything more complex.

The mistake I made in the above argument is probably that I conflated the character system and the combat system. Of course there could be skills outside of combat that do not necessarily distract from the core gameplay.

See, for me, a good character system (and a good RPG in general) is not about crunching numbers in combat but about facilitating different playstyles - which naturally extends to exploration aspects. And in a party-based games, it's also about defining the roles of party members. M&M took care of the latter by having a class system in place, while in most Ultimas the Avatar (and essentially companions as well) was a jack of all trades. It was still kinda ok, since the interactivity of the gameworld allowed for some creative approaches, but I somehow doubt Code of the Savage will have the same level of interactivity. But generally, you need a little bit of numbers to define your character's role and how he will interact with the gameworld.

Fair enough.
 

Infinitron

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The character system in Ultima was bad, but it's not really the reason the games' turn-based combat was boring. The reason is that Garriott never figured out the concept of movement points (letting you move multiple squares per turn).
 

SausageInYourFace

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Its not just that. It was also boring because all characters could to was to attack anyway. Positioning was relatively irrelevant. Casting spells in combat was also slow and usually not necessary because the combat was easy. I discovered the most high level spells in U5 only in late game when they were actualy necessary for me to finish the last dungeon which was also the only time combat was a bit fun. Those early Ultimas would have been improved if they ditched the tactical combat altogether and just had fast paced blobber combat, as the dungeons were first person already anyway.
 

Strange Fellow

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I agree that a weakness of V's combat is that it doesn't incentivise you to make use of the spell system more often. But as you note the combat was fun in the final dungeon, while VII was never fun, and spells were more trouble than they were worth much more often in VII than in V. Which is a shame, as I like the reagent-based spellcasting. Infinitron has it right of course, the biggest problem of IV and V was the lack of movement points.
Those early Ultimas would have been improved if they ditched the tactical combat altogether and just had fast paced blobber combat, as the dungeons were first person already anyway.
Maybe so, but VII's combat would be improved by nearly anything.
 

SausageInYourFace

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while VII was never fun

And yet, as opposed to U4 & U5, it also wasn't annoying and got in the way.

Arguably, the clusterfuck combat of U7 could be pretty fun(ny) particularly once you got the demonic instagib sword.

You are probably right about the spells, though, can't remember a lot of spellcasting in my playthrough.
 

Strange Fellow

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Different strokes, I suppose. I hate clusterfucks.
As for M&M, I think 3-5 would have been better games if they'd had the combat of 1, and people say 2 is even better. Blobber combat is as quick as you can think and press buttons, anyway, so making it more complex wouldn't necessarily compromise the exploration/combat balance.
 

yellowking

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while VII was never fun

Arguably, the clusterfuck combat of U7 could be pretty fun(ny) particularly once you got the demonic instagib sword.

"Release the hounds" is the best way to describe Ultima 7 combat. I remember hitting C to start combat against a drake or dragon, and just seeing the party swarm it and it was gone. It was funny, but not interesting at all. I'll agree with the others who support U5 combat. Tactical combat always beats mediocre real time.
 

aratuk

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Better for this to exist than not to. It's definitely worth giving it a shot. Backed.
 

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