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Underrail is mediocre (imo)

Agesilaus

Antiquity Studio
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Developer
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
4,223
Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014
Good luck explaining how Tchort is some inherently evil monster. Tchort is a good boy, he dindu nuffin, he just hangs out in the underground lab and helps the Tchortists with their science projects.
That one unique named tchortling got dialogue added in one of the recent updates. He doesn't seem very happy about being a tchortling. Bit rude of Tchort to do that to him.

I haven't seen that updated dialogue, but if Tchort did something bad to him then he probably deserved it. Also, no Tchort is beyond redemption, I'm not going to attack Tchort for hurting one man when I'm supposed to forgive the faceless mutants for rampaging across the entire map.
And i am not going against a queen of some Latin America country who wanted to make it strong and truly independent and who's husband, clearly on CIA payroll, hired me to kill her. I want to go against the agency.

Ok, putting aside the ridiculousness of comparing Tchort to some Latin American tyrant, why'd you take the contract and accept money to kill her? The game would be better if you could make a decision about which side to back, but the reality is that the game puts you on a side from very the beginning. It is then made obvious that the crazy lady just wants you dead. There's no decision to be made; the game isn't forcing you away from a path that you've invested in.

Underrail is not like that. You don't even know about Tchort in the beginning, but later you learn more and can become a Tchortist. Eventually, you might terraform the planet and live happily ever after on the surface. However, the game suddenly railroads you into betraying your principles and comrades in favour of loathsome blood-thirsty mutants who have the power of infinite respawns.
There is nothing ridiculous about comparing them. Both are "bad guys" of computer game of the genre rpg. I agree it would nice to have two campaigns, one against Deidranna and one fighting the insurrection on her side. Would be fun. As would be having more options in Underrail, being able to choose the preferred bad guy for yourself. My point however is that it is ridiculous claiming that a bad guy in a game isn't one. He is that by definition, that is his role in the game. The reason behind his/her/their action might be more or less sensible, might be more or less nuanced but it doesn't change its function. It is to be the "bad guy" and be defeated at the end by the player. "Bad" in "bad guy" doesn't have to mean "evil" at all. It just means "the final boss or goal of the game". I'm not sure if i'm clear, i'm sorry for that.

I see the issue: you are an NPC with no appreciation for the broader story, no sense of morality or personal desire, no particular place beyond wherever some game dev places you. My mistake, I thought you understood that "bad guy" should mean more than just "guy game dev told you to attack". Carry on.
 

Stavrophore

Kalin was right all along.
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Vatnik
Joined
Aug 17, 2016
Messages
6,632
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don't identify with EU-NPC land
Strap Yourselves In
Tchortism is kinda like an unholy child of synthesis of Klaus Schwab and Yuval Noah Harari ideas with biotranshumanism, lack of will, and one AI[psychic] driven organism guided by tchortists/biocorp. The only enticing thing is their promise[probably false] about guiding evolution to make humans enhanced to whitstand living condition on surface[which no one has seen for years, so everything they presume might be false]. From RP perspective, sure that Underrail should allow us to side with tchort. But then how would styg end the whole mystery cube quest, with tanner teleporting to deep caverns and fighting us there? Idk.
 

Serus

Arcane
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Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
5,543
Location
Small but great planet of Potatohole
Good luck explaining how Tchort is some inherently evil monster. Tchort is a good boy, he dindu nuffin, he just hangs out in the underground lab and helps the Tchortists with their science projects.
That one unique named tchortling got dialogue added in one of the recent updates. He doesn't seem very happy about being a tchortling. Bit rude of Tchort to do that to him.

I haven't seen that updated dialogue, but if Tchort did something bad to him then he probably deserved it. Also, no Tchort is beyond redemption, I'm not going to attack Tchort for hurting one man when I'm supposed to forgive the faceless mutants for rampaging across the entire map.
And i am not going against a queen of some Latin America country who wanted to make it strong and truly independent and who's husband, clearly on CIA payroll, hired me to kill her. I want to go against the agency.

Ok, putting aside the ridiculousness of comparing Tchort to some Latin American tyrant, why'd you take the contract and accept money to kill her? The game would be better if you could make a decision about which side to back, but the reality is that the game puts you on a side from very the beginning. It is then made obvious that the crazy lady just wants you dead. There's no decision to be made; the game isn't forcing you away from a path that you've invested in.

Underrail is not like that. You don't even know about Tchort in the beginning, but later you learn more and can become a Tchortist. Eventually, you might terraform the planet and live happily ever after on the surface. However, the game suddenly railroads you into betraying your principles and comrades in favour of loathsome blood-thirsty mutants who have the power of infinite respawns.
There is nothing ridiculous about comparing them. Both are "bad guys" of computer game of the genre rpg. I agree it would nice to have two campaigns, one against Deidranna and one fighting the insurrection on her side. Would be fun. As would be having more options in Underrail, being able to choose the preferred bad guy for yourself. My point however is that it is ridiculous claiming that a bad guy in a game isn't one. He is that by definition, that is his role in the game. The reason behind his/her/their action might be more or less sensible, might be more or less nuanced but it doesn't change its function. It is to be the "bad guy" and be defeated at the end by the player. "Bad" in "bad guy" doesn't have to mean "evil" at all. It just means "the final boss or goal of the game". I'm not sure if i'm clear, i'm sorry for that.

I see the issue: you are an NPC with no appreciation for the broader story, no sense of morality or personal desire, no particular place beyond wherever some game dev places you. My mistake, I thought you understood that "bad guy" should mean more than just "guy game dev told you to attack". Carry on.
I'm not a storyfag, no, if that's what you want to say. I also don't believe that computer games are a medium suited for nuanced adult themes about things like morality, at all. I also think that they never deliver in that regard even when, needlessly, they try. Unless we talk about a 12 years old - literally or mentally - the kind who, after playing Planescape : Torment found its writing deep and intellectually stimulating.
One more thing, no need to get personal, mister "sense of morality".
 

Trashos

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3,218
I hear the complaints about being railroaded against Tchortism eventually. I would argue that being a pawn in schemes bigger than you is part of the Underrail experience.

Am I confident that the reason for this (being railroaded against Tchort) was not just because of resource limitations? No, I am not confident. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. But think about it, you grow stronger and are gradually able to take on armies of enemies, but at no point do you feel you are in control of Underrail. You never have all the information, you never know everyone's motivations, things keep happening out of sight, and all you get to see is a fresh dead body in the sewers.

So to me it is part of the experience, and it works. It is a valid discussion, however, and it is just unfortunate that it is part of a thread with such a stupid title.
 

Agesilaus

Antiquity Studio
Patron
Developer
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
4,223
Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014
Tchort was robbed of his chance to shine, and the wicked game dev tried to force us into being an accomplice. For me, the game ends with your character heroically holding back the tide of Faceless. I hope the sequel will recognise this as canon.
 
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Rabbity_Thing

Arcane
Wumao
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Messages
2,141
d4uxWHV.jpg
 

PorkaMorka

Arcane
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
5,090
So what? You are aware that the same applies to Fallout 1/2 for example?

Yes, the same issue applies to all games that follow the Fallout formula, long single character CRPGs with arbitrary home brew systems where you are locked into a very specific build from day one. You are stuck with some build you chose at the start out of ignorance for 40 to 70 hours and you are expected to replay the entire game (including boring plot and fetch quest segments) if you want to make a better build.

However, the issue was less apparent in Fallout games, because they were kind of casual and shallow and optimization was unnecessary. Fallout had a bad character building system, but it was more of a background element, where Underrail is more of a "build porn" game.

Underrail's design decisions cater to people who repeatedly replay long, plot based single character CRPG. However, the trade off is that it's less fun for people doing only one playthrough.

Many / most of the recommended builds are extremely weird and not something I would ever think to try starting out on my own, because they're so limited, boring and not in line with fictional archetypes.

This character can only use crossbows and traps, have fun doing that for 70 hours.
 

Alphons

Cipher
Joined
Nov 20, 2019
Messages
1,944
There's no need to autistically specialize your character unless you're playing on Hard or Dominating.

As long as you don't try to develop 5 weapon skills at the same time and don't pick melee feats while only using guns, Normal allows you to pretty much roll with any build.

And there's always Easy difficulty.
 
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Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
7,823
It's overrated cause of rpg drought, nothing to play and it was more than good enough. When it comes to indies it's one of the best, better than last vogel games, considerably better than eschalon when it comes to isometric rpg. With the DLC it's getting better in my opinion and remember all of it was extremely cheap. We are reaching the limit of what indies can do, utimately they are unsatisfying . Classics like fallout had bigger team and budget even if small . RPG are a stagnating genre not evolving much in 30 years , no one investing in yet, even some hedge fund complained lately hasbro do not put enough money into D&D. Only recently i can see projects improving over the classics, like BG3 ,solasta to a lesser extent, or some ufo like KOTC2. Dream RPG would be stig or pierre begue having large team and budget to direct, now we would get truly great rpgs , not average to mediocre ones.
 

Serus

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Jul 16, 2005
Messages
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Small but great planet of Potatohole
It's overrated cause of rpg drought, nothing to play and it was more than good enough. When it comes to indies it's one of the best, better than last vogel games, considerably better than eschalon when it comes to isometric rpg. With the DLC it's getting better in my opinion and remember all of it was extremely cheap. We are reaching the limit of what indies can do, utimately they are unsatisfying . Classics like fallout had bigger team and budget even if small . RPG are a stagnating genre not evolving much in 30 years , no one investing in yet, even some hedge fund complained lately hasbro do not put enough money into D&D. Only recently i can see projects improving over the classics, like BG3 ,solasta to a lesser extent, or some ufo like KOTC2. Dream RPG would be stig or pierre begue having large team and budget to direct, now we would get truly great rpgs , not average to mediocre ones.
When it comes to indie = when it comes to the best games in the genre.

What a large team would bring to games like Underrail or KotC2 compared to what we have now?
Better graphics (possibly in bad style but technically certainly better)
Better music (again, good taste is not a given but certainly more)
Higher system requirements
Simplified mechanics (very likely Underail)
Easier overall and worse AI (very likely KotC 2)
Increased chance of woke bullshit
else?

Certainly not something that makes "average to mediocre" into "best in the genre". I'd even risk to say - the opposite is true. Not my dream at all.
 

wishbonetail

Learned
Joined
Oct 18, 2021
Messages
533
Underrail seemed like my genre, fallout-style, single character, tb combat, post-apoc/wasteland setting but somehow i couldn't get into it. I've had several tries over the years around ~10 hours each but still failed to keep an interest. I've tried to find a reason why. Maybe, it's because of my boring melee bulids, wich didn't required any crafting or tactics on Hard. Or maybe, it is because of the graphics from early 90's, while i was expecting some late 90's, seeing as it has been compared to Fallout. Or ugly Ui, which i couldn't help but compare to Fallout's. Or maybe, because of the general lack of music and sounds, which are supposed to create atmosphere. Maybe, because of the samey environments, caves, caves and caves again. Or maybe, because of the lack of engaging main plot, sub-plots and side stories i would give a damn to, or interesting dialogue, or characters. I don't remember a single character or quest from this game. Overall, it all adds up to a pretty boring experience, with me trudging around corridors, whacking rats or someshit in a face, then bandits, then again.
Now, with all the DLCs final completed ultimate version of Underrail, I will give it one final try. I will use crafting and theorybuilding ya'll been raving about, promise.
 

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
7,823
It's overrated cause of rpg drought, nothing to play and it was more than good enough. When it comes to indies it's one of the best, better than last vogel games, considerably better than eschalon when it comes to isometric rpg. With the DLC it's getting better in my opinion and remember all of it was extremely cheap. We are reaching the limit of what indies can do, utimately they are unsatisfying . Classics like fallout had bigger team and budget even if small . RPG are a stagnating genre not evolving much in 30 years , no one investing in yet, even some hedge fund complained lately hasbro do not put enough money into D&D. Only recently i can see projects improving over the classics, like BG3 ,solasta to a lesser extent, or some ufo like KOTC2. Dream RPG would be stig or pierre begue having large team and budget to direct, now we would get truly great rpgs , not average to mediocre ones.
When it comes to indie = when it comes to the best games in the genre.

What a large team would bring to games like Underrail or KotC2 compared to what we have now?
Better graphics (possibly in bad style but technically certainly better)
Better music (again, good taste is not a given but certainly more)
Higher system requirements
Simplified mechanics (very likely Underail)
Easier overall and worse AI (very likely KotC 2)
Increased chance of woke bullshit
else?

Certainly not something that makes "average to mediocre" into "best in the genre". I'd even risk to say - the opposite is true. Not my dream at all.

Best games in the genre yes cause no one is interested by that genre. A large team would get us considerably better games.

KOTC2 with a big budget ? First an official license will all the perks and classes, pierre system is ok but the official pathfinder books(or anything famous) would be better. Then hire good writers, why not avelonne , a great story a great plot, lore, would do wonder, in kotc2 there's nothing like that. Then hire very good artists to commision gorgeous 2D artwork. Musicians for orchestral symphony , great music add a lot to a game atmosphere. Hire some more guys for the level designs, imagine something like Rappan athuk megadungeon converted into kotc 2 with all the bestiary ,and superb dungeon tiles . This is not extremely costly to do , but a few millions and much more than the indie budget. A lone guy cant have enough time to do that either.
Till then you can only satisfy yourself with something still far from the tabletop experience, rarely good , most often average to mediocre.
 

Whisper

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
4,069
See, in a traditional RPG like Fallout, you can create characters fully developed in speech skills without putting points in combat but in Underrail you can't.
This post explains it in details:
Persuasion is good for lore and earlier Oculus, but otherwise, most of its meaningful checks can be completely skipped by doing certain quests/actions beforehand. [...] With Intimidation you either leave it at 0 and use items to boost the value and pass some checks, or max it when you have Yell/Brutality.

https://stygiansoftware.com/forums/index.php?topic=8647.0
While other skills are absolutely necessary.

You need to finish game before to know how to skip this checks. There are very specific paths you want to take to skip Persuasion checks, you wont know about them in first run.
So for first time game run, you really want Persuasion.

Also Mercantile is very important, it is not about prices, but about unlocking better items from traders.
 

Sarathiour

Cipher
Joined
Jun 7, 2020
Messages
1,330
See, in a traditional RPG like Fallout, you can create characters fully developed in speech skills without putting points in combat but in Underrail you can't.
This post explains it in details:

Where did the developers promised that the game allows you a truly pacifist build? The speech skills helps you to make your combat easier, not remove it completely. And i'm fine with that, the underrail is dangerous place and allowing you to finish game without firing a shot would be a complete farce.

Fucking seriously. If I could brofist, I would.

Well, I'll lend you mine
 

agris

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
5,478
Cave wizard is pretty fun but it's also the build people tell you not to play because it's too easy, so go figure.
Not everyone rolled high natural ability scores; for some, easy is the only way
 

Trashos

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3,218
In my experience, the easiest builds PRACTICALLY are the ones you are enjoying the most (as long as the build is not very very weak). If a certain build gives you, say, 5 different tactical approaches to every situation, and you don't care about using 3 of them, then you are not necessarily going to do very well.

I do better with my fist builds than with psi, not because they are stronger builds, but I enjoy them so much that I utilize their resources better.
 
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