Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Blaine]

you get me wrong. Im not saying to stab with spear. Im talking 3str and having huge penalties to melee with a stick. But str requirements do not matter when throwing it! Hence there is only 1 viable choice: tungsten winged spear!

No, I understand you entirely. I read your previous posts also, with the screenshots of huge-number crits and all that jazz.

You've misunderstood me—which is understandable. The Spear Throw nerf touched me in a bad place, so using Spear Throw in any capacity will always remind me of it. Spear Throw may be great when used as you describe, but the nerf reduced it to utter mediocrity when used to complement an actual melee spear-stabbing build. We can reasonably assume that Spear Throw was originally intended by Styg to complement melee spear-stabbing builds, so what you've done is repurpose it and make it great again.

I suspect that Spear Throw's potential to be used in YOUR way is what prompted Styg to nerf it, because it went from working just fine with a melee spear build to being extremely janky and somewhat subpar with a melee spear build.

Not only I, but also Parabalus, ItsChon, and others were annoyed by the Spear Throw nerf, and some avoided the relevant update for a while because of it.

 

[Parabalus]

Think you linked the wrong one, this is a gun build?

Oops.

https://underrail.info/build/?HgMQB...AbFlHDk15cL1hAKcKzdj7io7EF4qi6BOKouwLivY4E378

But if you have traps skill you don't need PER, to detect traps either trap detection from trap skill or normal detection is used.

You're largely correct, although I seem to recall that if you have high PER, it's slightly hybridized and your Trap Detection will be a bit higher than with Traps alone.

If I were to dump PER entirely, I could drop to 6 INT and go 10 AGI. But then where to fit Blitz and/or Strider?

You should def dump PER to 3. Dunno about the hybridization, but with 50 SP in Traps (and max DEX) I haven't stepped on a trap yet. I'm currently running a build with the same attribute spread, but stabbing knife instead of throwing.


You can drop like 50 points from Mercantile (and easily some from Persuade) and put them into traps, drop Trap Expert? Not sure how much skill you need to keep your traps invisible, I never liked setting traps.

 

[jackofshadows]

So guys is trade restock via cheat engine working with the current version? If so, what do I need for that aside from the installed cheat engine itself?

 

[Blaine]

You can drop like 50 points from Mercantile (and easily some from Persuade) and put them into traps, drop Trap Expert? Not sure how much skill you need to keep your traps invisible, I never liked setting traps.

Yeah, for sure. I'm also 100% sure that (humanoid) enemies are better at avoiding traps now, as the gangsters in Drop Zone all detoured around an entire line of bear traps in my current game (few dozen points in the skill).

Revised build. If I'm gonna have this many skill points, might as well invest in Dodge and Uncanny Dodge. Would be nice to have Nimble, but just having a stiff Uncanny Dodge and a bit of reduced hit rate in melee might be worthwhile enough.

https://underrail.info/build/?HgMQC...lHDk15cQS9AKcKzdj7DjuKjsQXiqLoE4qi7AuK9jgTfvw

________________________________________


Another build I'm working on:

https://underrail.info/build/?HgMMB...CZhwpEzFlYCSynChcK1wqRAw4zio7EF4rK6BeKyuwXfvw

This one employs everyone's favorite, Ambush, and again, it's Throwing and Traps, except this is a chem pistol build. The idea is to have enough DEX to get off spec'd Cooked Shot (hopefully with Ambush crit), Aimed Shot (also with a chemical pistol, or energy pistol if and when necessary), throw a magnesium grenade, then retreat and rely on the blob traps I've placed. Next turn, while Cooked Shot is still on cooldown, Ambush (with the help of the magnesium grenade) and Opportunist (for enemies caught in traps) will bolster regular chemical pistol attacks. Quick Tinkering and Grenadier do what Quick Tinkering and Grenadier do.

Sure Step is there for Depot A sanity, to avoid one's own puddles, and also to be able to use caltrops with impunity. Caltrops are heavy, but that's why you use them liberally—and they needn't occupy a utility slot after they've been spread. You prepare the battlefield stealthily, then re-fill your slots. On my Spec Ops build that had Sure Step, the ability to run back over my own ocean of caltrops was fantastic, at least until the SMG got super-OP.

The temptation to work in Nimble and mix up some combination of unique anti-bio damage gear (Chemical Assault Unit armor, Biohazard Boots, Grey Spec Ops, etc.) to also wade imperviously through clouds of bio gas is a great temptation with a build like this, but any attempt to do so erodes the effectiveness of Ambush. Still, gas grenades can be used away from your main engagement zone, or you can wear an anti-bio suit for specific engagements and simply accept that Ambush and stealth will be lower.

 

[ItsChon]

you get me wrong. Im not saying to stab with spear. Im talking 3str and having huge penalties to melee with a stick. But str requirements do not matter when throwing it! Hence there is only 1 viable choice: tungsten winged spear!

No, I understand you entirely. I read your previous posts also, with the screenshots of huge-number crits and all that jazz.

You've misunderstood me—which is understandable. The Spear Throw nerf touched me in a bad place, so using Spear Throw in any capacity will always remind me of it. Spear Throw may be great when used as you describe, but the nerf reduced it to utter mediocrity when used to complement an actual melee spear-stabbing build. We can reasonably assume that Spear Throw was originally intended by Styg to complement melee spear-stabbing builds, so what you've done is repurpose it and make it great again.

I suspect that Spear Throw's potential to be used in YOUR way is what prompted Styg to nerf it, because it went from working just fine with a melee spear build to being extremely janky and somewhat subpar with a melee spear build.

Not only I, but also Parabalus, ItsChon, and others were annoyed by the Spear Throw nerf, and some avoided the relevant update for a while because of it.

I mean, I didn't love the nerf, but it still works absolutely fine with a melee spear build. The power spike comes in later at level 18 and you're forced to use TiChrome spears and/or tabis, but it's still my favorite build for a reason and I think you're exaggerating how "janky" or "bad" it is by a lot.

 

[Blaine]

I mean, I didn't love the nerf, but it still works absolutely fine with a melee spear build. The power spike comes in later at level 18 and you're forced to use TiChrome spears and/or tabis, but it's still my favorite build for a reason and I think you're exaggerating how "janky" or "bad" it is by a lot.

Your tune has changed a lot since the nerf first dropped. You were absolutely indignant back then.

The main reason I don't like the nerf is that you now have to min-max your equipment in that highly specific way, one that we both immediately thought of. He tuned Spear Throw to precisely peak only with the most AP-conservative equipment combo; without it, your attacks don't "fit" into the available AP. I absolutely hate that Styg designs the game that way. From his own statements, he seems to consider an entire category of potential builds as a sort of gestalt; he posted something like "Sniper rifles are probably even more powerful than before" when he implemented the Spearhead nerf. Yet he doesn't seem to fully consider how individual builds will actually be tuned within that broad category after his whack-a-mole alterations.

Not for the first time, I posit that he's far too close to his own creation to be objective or to maintain the proper perspective in these matters, but that is inherent to all creators and not a fault per se.

 

[ItsChon]

I mean, I didn't love the nerf, but it still works absolutely fine with a melee spear build. The power spike comes in later at level 18 and you're forced to use TiChrome spears and/or tabis, but it's still my favorite build for a reason and I think you're exaggerating how "janky" or "bad" it is by a lot.

Your tune has changed a lot since the nerf first dropped. You were absolutely indignant back then.

The main reason I don't like the nerf is that you now have to min-max your equipment in that highly specific way, one that we both immediately thought of. He tuned Spear Throw to precisely peak only with the most AP-conservative equipment combo; without it, your attacks don't "fit" into the available AP. I absolutely hate that Styg designs the game that way. From his own statements, he seems to consider an entire category of potential builds as a sort of gestalt; he posted something like "Sniper rifles are probably even more powerful than before" when he implemented the Spearhead nerf. Yet he doesn't seem to fully consider how individual builds will actually be tuned within that broad category after his whack-a-mole alterations.

Not for the first time, I posit that he's far too close to his own creation to be objective or to maintain the proper perspective in these matters, but that is inherent to all creators and not a fault per se.

Yeah I don't disagree with any of that. It seems clear to me that as long as something is still playable and good, I'm really not too bothered by things, while you refuse to play/do certain things as a matter of principle. Everything you said is true, but melee spears are still really strong despite the fact that you have to use a TiChrome spear (if you're wearing tabis, you have enough AP to chuck a spear throw, stab with a TiChrome spear, and your last stab can be with any kind of spear. Worth mentioning I think), and they're still really fun, so I just don't understand why you refuse to play these builds when you could still enjoy them even if you disagree with the changes that were made.

 

[Jason Liang]

... just take Versatility for crissakes.

 

[Parabalus]

Another build I'm working on:

https://underrail.info/build/?HgMMB...CZhwpEzFlYCSynChcK1wqRAw4zio7EF4rK6BeKyuwXfvw

This one employs everyone's favorite, Ambush, and again, it's Throwing and Traps, except this is a chem pistol build. The idea is to have enough DEX to get off spec'd Cooked Shot (hopefully with Ambush crit), Aimed Shot (also with a chemical pistol, or energy pistol if and when necessary), throw a magnesium grenade, then retreat and rely on the blob traps I've placed. Next turn, while Cooked Shot is still on cooldown, Ambush (with the help of the magnesium grenade) and Opportunist (for enemies caught in traps) will bolster regular chemical pistol attacks. Quick Tinkering and Grenadier do what Quick Tinkering and Grenadier do.

Sure Step is there for Depot A sanity, to avoid one's own puddles, and also to be able to use caltrops with impunity. Caltrops are heavy, but that's why you use them liberally—and they needn't occupy a utility slot after they've been spread. You prepare the battlefield stealthily, then re-fill your slots. On my Spec Ops build that had Sure Step, the ability to run back over my own ocean of caltrops was fantastic, at least until the SMG got super-OP.

The temptation to work in Nimble and mix up some combination of unique anti-bio damage gear (Chemical Assault Unit armor, Biohazard Boots, Grey Spec Ops, etc.) to also wade imperviously through clouds of bio gas is a great temptation with a build like this, but any attempt to do so erodes the effectiveness of Ambush. Still, gas grenades can be used away from your main engagement zone, or you can wear an anti-bio suit for specific engagements and simply accept that Ambush and stealth will be lower.

I don't think you'll have much trouble with this build, but if you want something different, you can drop PER to to 6 for Ambush, max DEX to 18, then use Versatility with max melee.

You could then combine it with your above throwing build, works great.

There's new headgear specially for breathing in gas https://stygiansoftware.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tchortist_Bioscrubber, available immediately after Depot A, the new Phreak questline.

 

[Blaine]

My biggest question when contemplating Versatility DEXers with no CON or Detection is always, "What about crawlers?".

Though to be fair, I can't even spot the tougher variants reliably with 13 PER and Detection goggles, at least not yet. I'll probably have to wait until level 20+ and motion-tracking level 100%+.

They cheat... they cheat. I can only cling to my memories of my riot shield spearman blocking all their shit.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

My biggest question when contemplating Versatility DEXers with no CON or Detection is always, "What about crawlers?".

savescumming, duh.

 

[Jason Liang]

My biggest question when contemplating Versatility DEXers with no CON or Detection is always, "What about crawlers?".

Though to be fair, I can't even spot the tougher variants reliably with 13 PER and Detection goggles, at least not yet. I'll probably have to wait until level 20+ and motion-tracking level 100%+.

They cheat... they cheat. I can only cling to my memories of my riot shield spearman blocking all their shit.

... you could just max PER, and have minimum DEX for the melee feats you want (the only one to actually consider is Cheap Shots). All DEX really does is save you skill points (which the game showers you with anyway) reduce AP for light weapons (which is useless if you aren't using a light weapon) and crit rate for melee, which really doesn't change the battle tactically, and increase Initiative (which is almost never used since you begin most fights stealthed). Its a poo-poo platter of minor abilities. If you compare to STR for carrying capacity and gear requirements, or PER for detecting crawlers and the cool ranged weapon feats, either have a greater direct effect on your capabilities.

 

[Parabalus]

My biggest question when contemplating Versatility DEXers with no CON or Detection is always, "What about crawlers?".

Though to be fair, I can't even spot the tougher variants reliably with 13 PER and Detection goggles, at least not yet. I'll probably have to wait until level 20+ and motion-tracking level 100%+.

They cheat... they cheat. I can only cling to my memories of my riot shield spearman blocking all their shit.

If you have a ton of movement points you can reliably kite death stalkers, their AI will always try to restealth if out of your LoS and you can run towards them to reveal them by bumping.

 

[Blaine]

If you have a ton of movement points you can reliably kite death stalkers, their AI will always try to restealth if out of your LoS and you can run towards them to reveal them by bumping.

Oh, I know. Lemme just load up my old SMG Spec Ops save. What is he wearing? Is it Grey Spec Ops armor? A black overcoat?

Cave hoppers win again.

Never invest in Nimble, Dodge, or Evasion. Scooting around like Sanic Hegehog is the best defense.

 

[Tacgnol]

How are spears as a melee build these days? Might be interesting to do something melee for the next playthrough.

 

[Blaine]

How are spears as a melee build these days? Might be interesting to do something melee for the next playthrough.

They were great when I played them, even after the nerf.

They have a little extra reach, which can sometimes make a difference. Pair with riot armor, a shield, and blocking feats to make melee enemies (including Death Stalkers) cry, energy shield for the ranged. Unlike in a tin can, you can retain quite decent mobility and still enjoy respectable protection if itemized correctly. Nimble always makes sense here, despite (probably) not investing in Dodge or Evasion.

Spear Throw is good. You can even go stealthier if desired and still not be super-squishy, especially now that tabi are more the way to go if min-maxing Spear Throw usage, although you'll likely never achieve extreme stealth.

Basically, it's the first fully viable hoplite option. The somewhat increased weapon versatility, strong melee counter, and added mobility compensate for a thinner can.

 

[thesecret1]

I just carry like 50 flares on me in case of meeting crawlers

 

[Blaine]

Al Fabet confirmed for best merchant in the game. This is my first time speaking to him this playthrough.

Also, I collect brains.

I just carry like 50 flares on me in case of meeting crawlers

Works great until none of them land properly and you get stabbed anyway, or it works but they win the initiative roll....

I've often used flares against them, but it's never anywhere close to surefire.

 

[thesecret1]

Fun fact - if you pickpocket all those hearts from Al Fabet, he stops being overencumbered.

As for crawlers and flares - if you discover them with the flare, its automatically your turn I think. Or you need to first enter combat mode and then throw it. And if they manage to get to you anyway, either be heavy armored enough to just tank their attacks, or die and try again I guess.

 

[lukaszek]

if you hate crawlers - invest in yell

 

[Parabalus]

What I dislike about the Crawler AI is when they miss you, either into Uncanny or Mirror Images, and still run away as if waiting 2 turns for you to be stunned. Extremely annoying.

Also fun how usually the first place you see regular crawlers is the West Wing at the University.

 

[jackofshadows]

Yeah, the merc refresh script is working, thanks and I've no fucking idea how I've been playing without it. I mean, I did play around the system, were purchasing stuff in advance etc but even with this cheat I just spent almost 40 mins with Constantine after cheesing through the game until 13 lvl pretty much w/o gear.

 

[Blaine]

Yeah, the merc refresh script is working, thanks and I've no fucking idea how I've been playing without it. I mean, I did play around the system, were purchasing stuff in advance etc but even with this cheat I just spent almost 40 mins with Constantine after cheesing through the game until 13 lvl pretty much w/o gear.

At this point, even with The Juice, the merchant meta has gotten completely and totally out of fucking control. We need a fucking emergency phone with a vacuum chute later on in the game that just automatically dials up every merchant and lets you access their dialogue and inventory.

BUT THAT WOULD ALLOW PLAYERS TO AL FABET FROM THE COMFORT OF HOME! Oh no, oh lawd Jeezis Crimis, who gives a shit? At that point, it doesn't even matter.

You can do a complete circuit of the entire Underrail Wholesalers and Merchants Convocation and come out of it with one fucking image intensifier tube—if you're lucky. Also, the Mercantile feats don't do shit except allow you to sell more stuff (to be fair, the skill opens up special inventories, so Mercantile is now close to mandatory for crafting).

You want to see luck? Shit, look at this, I couldn't believe it:

It took the entire game up to near level 20 for me to obtain a grand total of four image intensifier tubes, and these were half of them. I'd purchased or looted four complete NVGs of each type long before then.

Not to mention, many of the more coveted firearm and crossbow attachments are near-invisible in the inventory UI.

 

[Parabalus]

Instead of refreshing Merchants you can clone the items, same result but faster.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

bunch of disgusting cheaters