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Moonspeak Undertale - friendship/genocide RPG

Karwelas

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Codex Year of the Donut I helped put crap in Monomyth
Oh and by the way, if anyone want some more Toby games, try Earthbound halloween hack. It is pretty great, Toby make his first music tracks connected to that project. (Megalovania is his 'sign'. In any game or anything else that he make, there is supposed to be little part of it or remixed track)
 

Jasede

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
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Karwelas

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Codex Year of the Donut I helped put crap in Monomyth
Yep, some of fanart pictures are actually amazing. I saw comics somewhere, don't have link, but check spoiler to read a joke inside of it.
Toriel crying and talking with Sans.
T: I still miss my ex...
But my aim gets better!
 

Murk

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Jan 17, 2008
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13,459
I really wasn't expecting this game to be what it was. Holy shit some of the music is hauntingly good.

The meta-humor is played really well. The "...but no one came" hit me like a fucking brick to the face.
 
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Naveen

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I fell for the hype, the universally good reviews (even here), but played an hour and I hated it immediately. I understand what the game is trying to pull, but I'm not sure it works.

Let me get this straight: I'm playing as a kid armed with a stick or a toy sword, which means I should be as dangerous as a turd, and I'm being attacked by giant vegetables, some sort of frog-like creature, depressed animals and... I don't even know what was that pudding thing. For some reason, I'm supposed to show mercy to these hysterical mobs that just jump at me and try to kill me, although they sometimes say things, which means communication should be possible. And how does the game represents this "mercy" thing? By talking checks, stealth, charisma, non-lethal attacks? Nah, by dodging shit until the enemy gets tired or you beat them a little or, oddly enough, you cheer them while they are trying to kill you. One enemy, the vegetable, requires me to dodge aubergines but catch the green one because kids should eat veggies or something. Am I to take this whole thing seriously as some sort of subversion of the RPG genre or some philosophical take on the Otherness of enemies in PC games? Am I missing some sort of deep meaning or there is a great revelation later that explains how any of this makes sense (something that isn't "everything is a dream", "parallel dimension" or "time travel", please?)? I hate the whole damn thing, but I'm willing to try it again if there is something else waiting for me.

I mean, this game has like a 97% Metacritic and universally good reviews... everywhere! Some people on Steam reviews are accusing naysayers of being "psychopaths" for not understanding the message or being dead inside. I expect a lot from something like that.
 

Jasede

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
I think calling it a subversion or, rather, a deconstruction of the jRPG genre is pretty much on the mark.

This is to a jRPG like Neon Genesis Evangelion is to mecha, Utena is to shoujo and Madoka is to the magical girl genre. If you don't know anime, another good example is NieR, which is also a deconstruction of the jRPG genre, or Drakengard, which deconstructs the whatever genre Dynasty Warriors is by making your party grow more and more psychopathic as you travel alongside a pedophile, a kid and a kid-eating elf...

I wish I could explain deconstruction a little better, but the only really good examples for them I know are the ones above, they're hard to pull off because you have to be very familiar with the source material.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
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Drakengard, which deconstructs the whatever genre Dynasty Warriors is by making your party grow more and more psychopathic as you travel alongside a pedophile, a kid and a kid-eating elf...
Apparently this is a thing I need to play.

Edit: Another example of a well known/recieved deconstruction is the sharp turn sitcoms took in the 90's - they went from being weird sappy shit with stepford wives to things like Married with Children or The Simpsons, with nagging wives, bratty children, and generally broken households.

Edit2: That said, I think 'take this seriously' might be going a step too far. If you don't get a chuckle out of things like like the rock getting huffy when you try to move him, or the sad 'puzzles' you can't fail, you're probably not going to enjoy the game enough for it to be a worthwhile experience. The game has some serious/heavy parts, but a big chunk of what makes it enjoyable is just chilling in between those parts giggling at the jokes. There's also a lot of neat little easter eggs to find in the way enemies behave and different ways of doing things, and the bullet 'hell' (it really isn't with the exception of a couple bosses on the hard route) keeps adding neat little gimmicks to keep it fresh enough considering how little combat there really needs to be.
 
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lightbane

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Dec 27, 2008
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Since the game is built around multiple playthroughs, it's fine if you play it however you want and you butcher defend yourself from the increasingly zany enemies. However, the game does explain why the enemies attack you and why a "small kid with a stick" is seen by the monsters as a dangerous thing.
However, if past the Ruins you still don't like what you see, the rest of the game won't mean much for you.

Changing the topic, I don't think NieR deconstructs anything. It's a fine action-adventure game (except for the typical "fuck you player" Cavia moments). At most the novelty is that it shows why people with good intentions can end up being way more dangerous than moustache-twirling villains.
 

Jasede

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
I feel as if Nier subverts a lot of tropes. You're destroying the world, not saving it. You're helping your daughter, not saving the world. And the meta commentary - the game makes fun of you for doing stupid, tedious quests.
 
Self-Ejected

Bubbles

I'm forever blowing
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By the way, is it true that the Codex is doing an oficial review, Bubbles? What about other games like PoE's expansion (along with other reviews stating how the first one is totally wrong), Serpent in the Staglands, Shadowrun: HK, Bedlam and the other rpgs? I would have assumed these were going to receive a review as well.

Hong Kong will be reviewed shortly, but the reviews for the other games are still far off (if they'll ever happen at all). They're simply too niche and too limited compared to a game like Undertale, which has the potential to be the Codex RPG of the year.
 

lightbane

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Dec 27, 2008
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Ok, I'll wait and see then.

Also, Jasede, while what you say is true, the game's gameplay is still a standard action-adventure jrpg. Also, all of the bad stuff happens because the player knows what's going on, unlike the characters. In that game everyone had good intentions, but the extremes they go to do so is what seals their fate. They never become aware of what they're doing (and the only one who does so doesn't care at all because he/she's half crazy). The stuff about side-quest was brilliant IMO, which also worked as yet another way for Cavia to troll players (especially completionists).

Anyway, here's more fanstuff I found which I believe it is worth sharing. Watch out for possible spoilers:



Hopefully Toby does release more content for this game at some point.
 

Talby

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Codex USB, 2014
If he does add more content for the game, I hope there's a way to
finally give Asriel a happy ending.
 

Siveon

Bot
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Jul 13, 2013
Messages
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Just bought it today from the dev's website, I played the demo a year or so back and I knew it was going to be something cool. I was right, and I completed both the Neutral and Pacifist endings on the same day. I know not everyone will like this game, since it's geared toward a certain audience. That particular audience is just very vocal on the internet, so it's no doubt that it seems like everyone and their mother likes this game.

As a guy who likes JRPGs, (some forms of) anime, even bullet hell games, it's pretty much top notch. It's not a perfect match for codexian tastes, due to the aforementioned weeb undertones, so don't expect CRPG stuff (Naveen) or anything particularly grounded.

Well, I had fun at least.

Though yeah, still a bittersweet "True" ending. Fuck that flower in his...stem though.

I'm also too much of a pansy to do the genocide stuff. :oops:
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
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Terra da Garoa
I'm writing the Codex review, but gotta say, it's quite hard to talk about it without spoiling it... I went in with zero expectations, got tricked by Flowey the Flower and felt great. Don't want to spoil that. :/
 

Siveon

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Well, you could make a spoiler-full analysis and and a no-spoiler review. It's short, so you might be able to split the discussion up a bit but still only have to work out one full "review".

Not like the rest of the Codex will take that much interest, though.
 

lightbane

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Dec 27, 2008
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Yeah, the Codexers who loathe anything which seems remotely Japanese will definitively not like this game. Same for those who dislike dogs (shame on them). But then again it wasn't mean to please everyone.

Anyway, I didn't want to post more fanart of this game to not to clog this page, but these are worth a look (some are kinda spoilery, as usual):

CQmM8kLVEAAfOeh.jpg:large

That's what I imagined when I connected the dots during the game :lol:

tumblr_nw0h6qgzHt1rz0anso1_1280.jpg

Good representation. I kind of wonder how would the Metatton and the True Final boss look like though.

http://sevenshores.tumblr.com/post/130556361743/i-gave-up-trying-to-go-back-a-long-time-ago

Stuff about Gaster (who's still puzzling the fans and will continue to do so until Toby says otherwise).

What really happened during that flashback sequence where the monsters explain that event to you:
tumblr_nvw5ut5FEE1ry1axyo2_r1_540.png

Next one is just too cruel:
dAU0Av3.jpg


Finally, last but not least, for those who thought the game as not bullet-hell enough:


I'll try to make these the last fanart I post.
 
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rrc2soft

Educated
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May 6, 2012
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44
Serpent in the Staglands Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
I am going to break the "should not post more fan art rule" because this is a continuation from the previous "battle representation fanart" posted by lightbane. Is really cool.

tumblr_nw4jkhWnio1rz0anso1_1280.jpg
 

Jasede

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
OFF is certainly worth playing, and very short. It's a game like Yume Nikki or Undertale, using the "walk around jRPG-style" to tell a story. Its story is very dark but very much worth experiencing.
 

Crooked Bee

(no longer) a wide-wandering bee
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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
I'm writing the Codex review, but gotta say, it's quite hard to talk about it without spoiling it... I went in with zero expectations, got tricked by Flowey the Flower and felt great. Don't want to spoil that. :/

You should just mention it in a vague way, like "NPCs are rarely what they seem" (I haven't played the game yet so I'm just going by what people have been saying ITT) and give a couple of examples without giving away all the details or too many specifics. Those who wanted to played the game unspoiled have already done so anyway. Mention the different routes, too, and the way the game enjoys surprising the player. Explain why this is more than just a gimmick. Those kinds of things.

From reading this thread, I get the impression Undertale is something like the subversive JRPG edition of The Age of Decadence. :M I'm probably way off the mark though.
 

Shadenuat

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Russia
I'm writing the Codex review, but gotta say, it's quite hard to talk about it without spoiling it... I went in with zero expectations, got tricked by Flowey the Flower and felt great. Don't want to spoil that. :/
Why not divide the review in two parts, one being regular overview and other an analysis on why plot is good with all the spoilers you need? Or maybe tell at least one story of many others.

Nowadays many games can't be reviewed without spoilers because story ends up being the only interesting part, since mechanics rarely are innovative. Who cared about gunplay in Bioshock or classes in Mass Effect? Everyone made videos about time travel and 3-colored endings.
If the most unique part of the game is the story, you probably should review the story. Meaning spoilers. Or not review the game at all. I know it sounds a bit unorthodox WHAT THE FUCK SPOILERS IN REVIEW JOURNALISM BETRAYARA DIE FAGGET, but I find that reviewer more often than not shoots himself in the leg and ruins article more by completely avoiding spoilers than spoiling something.
 
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Durandal

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May 13, 2015
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New Eden
My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
I wish I could explain deconstruction a little better, but the only really good examples for them I know are the ones above, they're hard to pull off because you have to be very familiar with the source material.
Usually a deconstruction is targeted at a certain genre. A genre will always have its own set of tropes, which over time tend to be blindly upheld by anyone who makes another entry in that genre, like RPG portraits, killing stuff for XP and gold, magic girl transformations, and humans in general.

A deconstruction takes these tropes, and asks why. Kind of like how a philosopher questions everything in and outside life. Rather than the player going about his business as usual, he's presented with the (unintended) consequences of his actions, everything the player took for granted could fall apart, and the end result is that the game feels 'unusual'.

In games, a common theme amongst deconstructions seem to be that of murder. We murder to get past an obstacle, we murder for a greater cause, we murder to increase arbitrary values, we murder for better equipment to materialize on the opponent's corpse, we murder because the other person was an asshat, we murder for competition, and we murder for fun. There's no way around it, players love to murder. In the current society of real life this would be considered barbaric, but hey, it's just a video game, man. Murder in games is one of the most popular subjects for deconstruction, as to win a game you must usually pass some kind of obstacle, usually in the form of a big mean ork wielding a giant axe or a friendly blue slime, which we then vanquish through might or magic.

So what happens when someone looks at all the murdering we do, and asks why? The first case in videogames for someone to do that would probably be Lord British's Ultima IV, where rather than the player being crowned a hero on top of a pile of corpses, the player must act as a paragon of virtue to be crowned a hero, which does not include being a bloodthirsty mass murderer. (Older) RPGs would give the player options to pass an obstacle without having to resort to a fight, but that does not necessarily make them a deconstruction of their genre, neither does having the main villain say: "YOU ENJOY ALL THE KILLING, DON'T YOU?" in an attempt to make the player feel guilty. Sure, Ultima IV's virtues could be considered a morality system (which hasn't been trumped by any other game to this very day), but it was groundbreaking and unheard of when it was released.

Just having a morality system does not really deconstruct the genre. There's more to deconstruction than just painting a line where your avatar is evil and good. This is also not to be confused with innovation, where you add entirely new elements to the design, deconstruction is more about subverting that which is already established, as its name implies. In Ultima IV, the virtues would drastically change the way you played. In Undertale, the difference between FIGHT and MERCY would greatly change many aspects of the game. But the most important thing is that deconstructions never took their tropes for granted. The last word one would use to describe a deconstruction would be 'generic', because a deconstruction does not nicely play along with its genre.
 

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