Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Fallout Underwhelmed by Fallout :(

Gnidrologist

CONDUCTOR
Joined
Aug 30, 2005
Messages
20,913
Location
is cold
Yes, it does. And there are other things. Like people turning into fucking supermutants and ghouls from radiation and abandoned research facilities guarded by angry robots would be the first thing that comes to mind. You cherry pick the most kitschy things from F2, while ignoring that the other 95% of the game is great and arguably better (quests, writing), while conveniently ignoring stupid shit from F1.
 
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
4,317
My thoughs about the OP

2urwnmg.jpg
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Yes, it does. And there are other things. Like people turning into fucking supermutants and ghouls from radiation and abandoned research facilities guarded by angry robots would be the first thing that comes to mind. You cherry pick the most kitschy things from F2, while ignoring that the other 95% of the game is great and arguably better (quests, writing), while conveniently ignoring stupid shit from F1.

This so much.
:bro:

No I haven't, his example is just shitty and in no way does it correspond to this:

Yes you completely missed the point. The point wasn't if it was bad or anything, it was just an illustration that FO 1 had it's whacky stuff there too. The example given is a clear reference to Robin Hood and the whole scenario was obviously meant to be taken lightheartedly.
 

Darkzone

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Messages
2,323
Speaking for myself, I was none of those before and am still not a post apoc fan, even now. If its good, whatever the genre, I'll take it.
That is good and open minded. To be a fan of a certain genre makes one tend to accept things faster of a special topic and also more to forgive the flaws concerning things within this genre. Nothing more, nothing less.
 

Carrion

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 30, 2011
Messages
3,648
Location
Lost in Necropolis
Like people turning into fucking supermutants and ghouls from radiation
Somebody always seems to bring this up, even though radiation doesn't actually turn people into mutants in Fallout 1, it kills them. The devs specifically came up with the FEV to explain the mutations, which maybe isn't a "realistic" explanation but fits the 50's science fiction approach of the game. If anything, that aspect shows that they still cared for internal consistency and weren't so willing to introduce wacky stuff just for lulz.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
99,049
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I don't think Fallout 2 fans should argue that the game's setting was no wackier than Fallout 1's. The game is pretty obviously different in that respect, there's no way around it.

The argument I'd make in favor of Fallout 2's setting and lore, if I had to, is that Fallout 1 was such an embryonic, minimalistic game, that the direction Fallout 2 took with the setting is just as legitimate as any other.

But overall I just don't really care.
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
I don't think Fallout 2 fans should argue that the game's setting was no wackier than Fallout 1's. The game is pretty obviously different in that respect, there's no way around it.

The argument I'd make in favor of Fallout 2's setting and lore, if I had to, is that Fallout 1 was such an embryonic, minimalistic game, that the direction Fallout 2 took with the setting is just as legitimate as any other.

But overall I just don't really care.

I am a big fan of both games who likes both about equally much and have done multiple playthroughs/near playthroughs in both games. I just hate it when some people think because they are over 25 and have played FO 1 when it came out it entitles them to bash Fallout 2 on mostly baseless arguments.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,039
Yes, it does. And there are other things. Like people turning into fucking supermutants and ghouls from radiation and abandoned research facilities guarded by angry robots would be the first thing that comes to mind.
Fallout is set in the 50s retro future. FEV and radiation mutations, retro-future looking robots guarding old research facilities fit that future. Gangsters straight out from the 30s, kung-fu fighters, yakuza with ninja swords, ghosts, scientologists do not.

Some people care about settings, some don't. Those who don't, who see the setting in the most generic terms (like post-apocalyptic America - anything goes!) would always prefer FO2 to FO1 because the former offers more content and scope. Those who care about the setting and consistency would prefer FO1. Both are very good games.

I am a big fan of both games who likes both about equally much and have done multiple playthroughs/near playthroughs in both games. I just hate it when some people think because they are over 25 and have played FO 1 when it came out it entitles them to bash Fallout 2 on mostly baseless arguments.
FO2 developers took way too many liberties with the setting. It's a fact. The only question here is whether or not you give a fuck about such things. Clearly, you don't which doesn't mean the argument is baseless.
 

Goral

Arcane
Patron
The Real Fanboy
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
3,563
Location
Poland
(...) The point wasn't if it was bad or anything, it was just an illustration that FO 1 had it's whacky stuff there too. The example given is a clear reference to Robin Hood and the whole scenario was obviously meant to be taken lightheartedly.
And my point is that a thief with British accent <> Robin Hood. How is it whacky? Not to mention that he was hiding (which for a thief shouldn't be surprising) and it wasn't that easy getting to him. Compare it to guys with suits and armed with tommy guns being exposed all over Reno.
 

Darkzone

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Messages
2,323
Somebody always seems to bring this up, even though radiation doesn't actually turn people into mutants in Fallout 1, it kills them. The devs specifically came up with the FEV to explain the mutations, which maybe isn't a "realistic" explanation but fits the 50's science fiction approach of the game. If anything, that aspect shows that they still cared for internal consistency and weren't so willing to introduce wacky stuff just for lulz.
Which by the way is not only a 50's explanation, but very new hightech apporach for new gen therapies. It still just lacks the controll, but perhaps in 20 years it will be normal.

I am a big fan of both games who likes both about equally much and have done multiple playthroughs/near playthroughs in both games. I just hate it when some people think because they are over 25 and have played FO 1 when it came out it entitles them to bash Fallout 2 on mostly baseless arguments.
I wouldn't call VD arguments baseless, in my opinion he is certainly right about the atmosphere and setting. But does it make it a bad game? No. In FO:2 you had much better mechanics like the party options, where your party members were not just dead meat after a certain lv. I love both games, despite my memories are much better concerning FO:1, but sadly i miss the atmosphere from FO:1 in FO:2. If they would have kept the setting from FO:1 and only added the tribal things, then some opinions would be different.
 

hiver

Guest
Some people care about settings, some don't. Those who don't, who see the setting in the most generic terms (like post-apocalyptic America - anything goes!) would always prefer FO2 to FO1 because the former offers more content and scope. Those who care about the setting and consistency would prefer FO1.
You are really going on my fucking nerves with these baseless blind generic accusations.

That you just keep repeating even though they were factually dismantled and negated, which you just ignore and then few posts later just repeat all over again.


FO2 developers took way too many liberties with the setting. It's a fact. The only question here is whether or not you give a fuck about such things.

Here are actual FACTS:


Now, since you are so fond of FACTS tell me how many of these locations are completely DESTROYED BY what you call "no care for the setting" and lulz or whatever.



guys with suits and armed with tommy guns being exposed all over Reno.

All over eh? Screenshots or STFU, please.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,039
You are really going on my fucking nerves with these baseless blind generic accusations.
:gasp:

That you just keep repeating even though they were factually dismantled and negated, which you just ignore and then few posts later just repeat all over again.
Factually dismantled? Must have missed the whole 'dismantlening' business. Care to copy-paste some?

Here are actual FACTS:
All capitals? Sheeee-it.

Now, since you are so fond of FACTS tell me how many of these locations are completely DESTROYED BY what you call "no care for the setting" and lulz or whatever.
Um, cupcake, sorry to piss on your parade but when did I claim that the aforementioned liberties have COMPLETELY DESTROYED these locations?

The argument is that the 'liberties' affected the atmosphere, consistency, and suspension of disbelief. For example, Fallout says "listen, so there is this world where huge vaults were built to save people in case of a war (which is a very 50s thing, paranoia and all), the war did come and destroyed almost everything...". A certain image of this world is formed in your mind. "So you live in this vault but the waterchip is kaput so you need to get out and travel to another vault and see if they have a replacement".

Fallout 2 says "Vaults? Paranoia? People seeking shelter before the war? lolwut? It was all a social experiment, man. Conducted by the US government! The government's been behind it from day one! Which one you got? The one with the waterchip? Oh man, that must have sucked! That too was an experiment, btw. This data is very important in a post-apocalyptic environment. You'd think that ensuring that as many people as possible survive would be a priority, but doing retarded social experiments is way more important. Funny too! Speaking of the US government... It's still around. Has a president and all. Yes, I know it's been 160 years since the war and the world was destroyed, but the game needs an evil organization bent on destroying the world - again - and who's more evil than the United States' government?"


 

Gnidrologist

CONDUCTOR
Joined
Aug 30, 2005
Messages
20,913
Location
is cold
Indeed. Most areas in F2 perfectly fit the setting. Only Sanfran and Oil Rig seems a bit out of place, but not by THAT much. Why would surviving chinamen abandon their martial arts tradition after apocalypse? If anything, it would be very handy in this harsh environment. Why wouldn't there be cults? Desperate people are even more inclined to crave for some kind of religious consolation. Also, i could argue that BoS is completely out of place in F1. Especially so soon after the war. They didn't fit post-apo setting as well. Everyone is living in mud huts, but they somehow are more advanced than pre-war people, wearing robot armor and wielding laser miniguns huh.

Even places that had some wacky shit like NR, Redding and that place with talking deathclaw were mostly fitting. Besides, how is talking beast more idiotic than giant mutant orcs and rotten people emanating radiation? Before you say muh 50s sci-fi, there is nothing that would prevent to include talking monster in that setting and they certainly had aliens in them, while i don't think it ever included irradiated undead or muty orcs. I'm not 50s sci-fi specialist, but neither are you so stfu about that.
Continuously ignoring the Robin Hood example also tells about your silly bias. So how did he fit the setting?
 

Dickie

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
4,303
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
And my point is that a thief with British accent <> Robin Hood.
Does <> mean "not equal" because that would be a ridiculous assessment. His name was Loxley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Hood#Robin_of_Loxley), and he asks you go join their "merry little band" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merry_Men).

How is it whacky?
Robin Hood in a post-apocalyptic US is pretty whacky. To me, it was roughly on par with having Buck Rogers (Chuck Stodgers) in Fallout 2. Luckily, I play games for gameplay and not story/lore faggotry, so I'm fine with it either way. To claim it's not whacky just doesn't seem right, though.
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
And my point is that a thief with British accent <> Robin Hood. How is it whacky? Not to mention that he was hiding (which for a thief shouldn't be surprising) and it wasn't that easy getting to him. Compare it to guys with suits and armed with tommy guns being exposed all over Reno.

You don't get it, do you? :nocountryforshitposters:
 

hiver

Guest
Ah sorry, i forgot how stupid you can get so you can latch onto every insignificant detail of someone POST instead of actual matter at hand and answer a simple question.


Care to copy-paste some?
Just go back to our last exchange in this very thread, before you promised to "come back and tear my arguments apart". And read it again.
Im sure you can click a page or two back button.

Um, cupcake, sorry to piss on your parade
You are just pissing on your own head. There was no parade anywhere.


Fallout 2 says "Vaults? Paranoia? People seeking shelter before the war? lolwut? It was all a social experiment, man.
How does the idea of it all being various experiments mean that there was no paranoia and that people did not seek shelter before the war? Youre connecting things that have no causation between them.

After all, if we take that shelters were very secret experiments, it doesnt mean that people knew about it, eh?

Now, those experiments could have been various and more serious experiments, not stupid lulz that you played through in bethesda Fecal matter 3 or New Vegas.
After all, i dont remember any such lulzy experiments being presented in Fallout 2.

Government schmovernment, - if those were experiments on such a scale only the government could have done it. They are the only ones who could have such resources.
And the war times situation and collapse of society due to lack of resources before that would support such paranoid measures. Also, i think we know that Enclave was a rogue part of the government? So not even the regular government knew what additional shit they are planning when they were building Vaults.

ergo - ipso facto, asshole.



Which one you got? The one with the waterchip? Oh man, that must have sucked! That too was an experiment, btw.
An experiment to see how the vault dwellers would handle being forced to go out and fend for themselves in case of such a problems? And to see what would happen to them if they were exposed to the post apocalyptic wasteland ?

This data is very important in a post-apocalyptic environment.
Oh no.... thats completely irrelevant in post apocalyptic environment.


You'd think that ensuring that as many people as possible survive would be a priority, but doing retarded social experiments is way more important.
The only one who is retarded here is you. Thats probably why you see everything in Fallout 2 as retarded without having anything else to prove that but your convoluted baseless declarations.


Speaking of the US government... It's still around.
Yes? And thats strange? The US government would build all those Vaults and shit - and then they would...what? Kill themselves?


Has a president and all.
A simple power structure maintained artificially to preserve that specific idea of humanity, civilization and society. It has to be so rigid and enforced otherwise the Enclave would have mutated into something else, evolved or devolved. Frank being a good example of that, which is why he was kept on such a short leash.


Yes, I know it's been 160 years since the war and the world was destroyed, but the game needs an evil organization bent on destroying the world - again - and who's more evil than the United States' government?"
They dont want to destroy the world again, where did you get that? They want to rebuild the civilization back again, but first they have to clear all those mutant abominations from it, of course. Not destroy the world. They didnt even want to nuke it again but rather do it through a modified FEV.

Thats just a part of the main plot background. Part of general lore, not a direct part of gameplay.


Now, see how stupid and limited you are?
Lets go back to your claims about how lulz made a whole original game something else then Fallout game, and all who like it are enemies of Fallout who do not care for its setting. Which was destroyed because of too much lulz.

I gave you a list of locations, so feel free to tell me which of those locations is not a Fallout location due to the developers disrespect for the original Fallout setting and core design features (which you brofisted in Shihonage post btw)
You know very well thats what i was asking you.


Which and how many of those locations are not Fallout locations?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
How does the idea of it all being various experiments mean that there was no paranoia and that people did not seek shelter before the war?

Actually VD's point is that the experiment thing turns all that into lols. As in, yes, people used them to protect themselves but turning out to be experiments turns a post-apocalyptic scenario into one with mustache-twirling villains.
Now, I don't remember what the experiments were in FO2 and how stupid they were, but the idea of experiments in the first place is stupid for reason that were already discussed and are probably still in that other thread about the vault experiments.

Oh no.... thats completely irrelevant in post apocalyptic environment.

Except the result of that experiment is found out* after the post-apocalyptic event. Kinda late, don't you think?

*If it is. Is there any communication between vaults? It wouldn't matter if they were all experiments, but can the government even find out the results, supposing they could use them for anything at all?
 

hiver

Guest
I just explained why the idea of those being some kind of experiments does not mean what VD is saying it does.

Only shit 3 and NV made it into complete stupid lulz.

Except the result of that experiment is found out* after the post-apocalyptic event. Kinda late, don't you think?
god dammit Rads... the Enclave.
ffs...


Vault City sprang from a vault that opened, as planned, several decades after the bombs dropped. The inhabitants used their G.E.C.K. and soon it became a prosperous city. Unfortunately, the citizens have turned inwards and revel in ethnocentric elitism, rather than expanding their horizons.


Vault 15, Like many of the vaults, it was part of Vault-Tec's grand social experiment. The Fallout Bible (by Fallout 2/Van Buren) says the experiment in this vault entailed that it was to stay closed for fifty years, populated by vault dwellers of extremely diverse ideologies and cultures


- part of Vault-Tec's grand social experiment.

- The Fallout Bible (by Fallout 2/Van Buren) says
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,039
Indeed. Most areas in F2 perfectly fit the setting. Only Sanfran and Oil Rig seems a bit out of place, but not by THAT much. Why would surviving chinamen abandon their martial arts tradition after apocalypse? If anything, it would be very handy in this harsh environment.
Again, it's a question of scope. Adding more martial arts attacks - great and fitting. Having a kung-fu city where the Dragon is fighting Lo Pan because a submarine crashlanded there 160 years ago is silly.

Why wouldn't there be cults? Desperate people are even more inclined to crave for some kind of religious consolation.
Cults? Yes. Like the Followers of the Apocalypse. A very specific pre-war cult that could only exist in a pre-war society and would never survive the apocalypse? No.

Also, i could argue that BoS is completely out of place in F1.
You could but you'd be wrong because it's based on A Canticle for Leibowitz, a book written in the 50s and depicting a post-apocalyptic future.

Especially so soon after the war. They didn't fit post-apo setting as well. Everyone is living in mud huts, but they somehow are more advanced than pre-war people, wearing robot armor and wielding laser miniguns huh.
I don't see them as more advanced than the pre-war world.

T-51b powered infantry armor, or power armor, represented the peak of armored infantry technology before the Great War, developed in the laboratories of the West Tek Research Facility. At the end of the Anchorage Reclamation in January 2077, the armor had become standard issue for American soldiers in the Army's Mechanized Cavalry Regiments.
...
The Brotherhood of Steel does not possess the technology required to manufacture new suits of power armor and relies only on repaired and refurbished pre-Great War suits (which is, in fact, shown in the game - both repairing old armor and wear and tear shown on the armor)

FO01_NPC_Rhombus_N.png


So, an army unit that had access to the standard issue armor becomes the Brotherhood of Steel and has armor armor and pre-war weapons. What's out of place here?

Even places that had some wacky shit like NR, Redding and that place with talking deathclaw were mostly fitting. Besides, how is talking beast more idiotic than giant mutant orcs and rotten people emanating radiation? Before you say muh 50s sci-fi, there is nothing that would prevent to include talking monster in that setting and they certainly had aliens in them, while i don't think it ever included irradiated undead or muty orcs. I'm not 50s sci-fi specialist, but neither are you so stfu about that.
Well, if you think that talking animals are all fine and dandy, I won't try to convince you otherwise. As for "muty orcs', ever heard of the Hulk? He's huge, he's green, high STR, low INT, created by the gamma radiation (the super soldier serum was also mentioned somewhere).

Continuously ignoring the Robin Hood example also tells about your silly bias. So how did he fit the setting?
I've never claimed that Fallout's setting was absolutely perfect and didn't have a single flaw. A thief in a PA environment is not out of place. The British accent/slang is. Compared to things out of a place in FO2 the accent is a very minor thing (much like the British accents in Rome the TV show).
 

pippin

Guest
Does <> mean "not equal" because that would be a ridiculous assessment. His name was Loxley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Hood#Robin_of_Loxley), and he asks you go join their "merry little band" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merry_Men).


Robin Hood in a post-apocalyptic US is pretty whacky. To me, it was roughly on par with having Buck Rogers (Chuck Stodgers) in Fallout 2. Luckily, I play games for gameplay and not story/lore faggotry, so I'm fine with it either way. To claim it's not whacky just doesn't seem right, though.

It's not like similar things haven't been made before http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Connecticut_Yankee_in_King_Arthur's_Court
I don't care about that too much. It adds flavor, and it's ok. People should remember FO2 is a game where you put a bomb in a toilet and shit covers and entire town.
 

fizzelopeguss

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2004
Messages
950
Location
Equality Street.
I do think that part of what many people find endearing about Fallout is that it has a sort of "tight" small indie game feel to it (though they might not describe it in those terms). It really is an obvious "B project" with a certain indie-like amateurish quality to it.

Never read so much shit in my life, they're dripping with production values and have a cohesion i've rarely seen in this medium.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,039
Is there a point you're trying to make there? Hint: it's not the submarine presence that rubbed me the wrong way.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom