KickStarter Underworld Ascendant Pre-Prototype Thread

[Darth Slaughter]

The 600k may look like a low goal - and it is - but it's obvious they will open a paypal pledge on their website, and they will make more money in the steam early access.

I backed shroud of the avatar because I loved ultima games and the campaign was launched in a time when I was in a kickstarter pledging spree, and I fancy some collector boxes. Since i mostly hate multiplayer, I believed in their "single player intentions", but each SOTA released is focused in MP gameplay, which pissed me off at first. But underworld ascendant made me install SOTA again, and I'm actually enjoying the alpha in singleplayer. I won't spend a dime in their store for digital items, but if the complete game offers more of what I see in this alpha, I won't regret my pledge at all. it's pretty rough but the exploration side of things is very well done. And i'm loving the idea of an overworld map to portray a big continent. Full open world like oblivion and skyrim with cities that are 5 minutes away really put me of, unless it's something made like in morrowind and gothic.

Talking about SOTA, they made almost 2 million in KS, which I thought it was very little for their ambitious goals, but they're still accepting pledges and the sum about 5 million now. I believe this is the path Underworld Ascendant will follow, since they're sharing experiences with star citizen/SOTA developers. They may be adding some new stretch goals as development goes. Even kingdom come: Deliverance has a similar system, and they asked for only 300k £, and got 1.106k on KS.

Anyway, wasteland 2, pillars of eternity, Div:OS, Tesla Effect, Stasis, all had paypal funding through their websites, but we never actually saw how much they got from that. the diference is that these games are now out or very close to be released, while the group from above are releasing alpha chunks every now and then and no final release date in sight.

 

[Zep Zepo]

If they even make their first stretch goal I'll be surprised. I played those first games when they came out! I am their target audience as far as nostalgia goes. They are not even giving me a chub let alone a hard-on.

Zep--

Old age has made you pessimistic. Who shows up to a Kickstarter campaign with more than ideas and hopefully some street cred? Of the very few (of which Otherside is one) that come with actual protype to look at and work with to build systems, I can guarantee that none will satisfy you because you expect to see proof of glory and realized incline not two weeks into the campaign. Are you dim or jaded?

I have to be jaded. There is only finite money to throw at someone else's dream.

Zep--

 

[Zep Zepo]

I threw $150 at Divinity Original sin. They had a game to show. They had game sites and youtube playing there stuff. They didn't just show old divinity's and say "Hey look at us..we made games before! Give us your dollars!"

Exactly the opposite of what Otherside and Garriott are doing.

Zep--

 

[Tigranes]

I threw $150 at Divinity Original sin. They had a game to show. They had game sites and youtube playing there stuff. They didn't just show old divinity's and say "Hey look at us..we made games before! Give us your dollars!"

Exactly the opposite of what Otherside and Garriott are doing.

Zep--

Infinitron is right in that Larian was a huge exception, and that's because they were halfway done making the game and came for top-up funds, which is not what most other people have done.

You can criticise KS wave as a whole for that. I'd agree. It's stupid to argue Otherside are a lot worse than others, though. More accurately, they're just a shade too clunky and vague to really be comfortable, which one way or the other correlates with their lower $.

 

[Zep Zepo]

I threw $150 at Divinity Original sin. They had a game to show. They had game sites and youtube playing there stuff. They didn't just show old divinity's and say "Hey look at us..we made games before! Give us your dollars!"

Exactly the opposite of what Otherside and Garriott are doing.

Zep--

Infinitron is right in that Larian was a huge exception, and that's because they were halfway done making the game and came for top-up funds, which is not what most other people have done.

You can criticise KS wave as a whole for that. I'd agree. It's stupid to argue Otherside are a lot worse than others, though. More accurately, they're just a shade too clunky and vague to really be comfortable, which one way or the other correlates with their lower $.

That's my point exactly though, the vagueness. They have nothing that says "throw us your money". Warren can't even keep his eyes open while trying to plug it. He looks like a feeble old man about to fall asleep he's so excited. Otherside has the worst pitchmen ever it seems.

Zep--

 

[Crooked Bee]

Weren't e.g. Fargo's Kickstarters just as vague, though? Are you sure you aren't projecting / rationalizing the status quo of this campaign (that is, the fact it isn't getting as much money as possible) onto the KS model as a whole?

Personally I fail to see how exactly Otherside are a lot worse than others, be it when it comes to clunkiness or vagueness. I wonder what Vault Dweller would say about their campaign - probably that they should've have shown any alpha build gameplay at all, if I remember his previous position right.

 

[Zep Zepo]

Weren't e.g. Fargo's Kickstarters just as vague, though? Are you sure you aren't projecting / rationalizing the status quo of this campaign (that is, the fact it isn't getting as much money as possible) onto the KS model as a whole?

Personally I fail to see how exactly Otherside are a lot worse than others, be it when it comes to clunkiness or vagueness. I wonder what Vault Dweller would say about their campaign - probably that they should've have shown any alpha build gameplay at all, if I remember his previous position right.

They may end up making a game, maybe even a good game. I hope they do! But I cannot bring myself to pledge to what they have brought to the table so far (Which..come on..is nothing IMO). Like I said before...I've played those early games when they were released, I am (I think) their market they are trying to entice. But they arn't (for me).

Zep--

 

[Infinitron]

Weren't e.g. Fargo's Kickstarters just as vague, though? Are you sure you aren't projecting / rationalizing the status quo of this campaign (that is, the fact it isn't getting as much money as possible) onto the KS model as a whole?

Personally I fail to see how exactly Otherside are a lot worse than others, be it when it comes to clunkiness or vagueness. I wonder what Vault Dweller would say about their campaign - probably that they should've have shown any alpha build gameplay at all, if I remember his previous position right.

They aren't really any more vague than many other Kickstarters, but what they do suffer from is from a relative absence of genre convention people can project their assumptions onto. We have a pretty good idea of what REACTIVITY AND CHOICE & CONSEQUENCE THAT PERMEATES THE WORLD means in the context of an isometric game. We've seen it done, we know the drill, we can decipher the marketing-speak. But when you go first person and IMMERSIVE, to some people that seems unfamiliar, weird, kinda AAA high-budgetish, and therefore sketchy.

What I'd question is whether good-looking first person games are really that "high budget". Look at all those indie first person Early Access walking simulators that are so popular these days. Those didn't cost much to make. Actually, from a pure engine/coding perspective, setting up a moving camera is the easiest thing there is, much easier than setting up a good isometric point and click interface.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Oh man, I guess that means the Codex really is clueless when it comes to first person games

 

[Metro]

InXile had a good video with 12 year old game executive. Also it was a different world back then... before the massive wave of everyone with their e-hand out groveling for funds.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Weren't e.g. Fargo's Kickstarters just as vague, though? Are you sure you aren't projecting / rationalizing the status quo of this campaign (that is, the fact it isn't getting as much money as possible) onto the KS model as a whole?

Personally I fail to see how exactly Otherside are a lot worse than others, be it when it comes to clunkiness or vagueness. I wonder what Vault Dweller would say about their campaign - probably that they should've have shown any alpha build gameplay at all, if I remember his previous position right.

They may end up making a game, maybe even a good game. I hope they do! But I cannot bring myself to pledge to what they have brought to the table so far (Which..come on..is nothing IMO). Like I said before...I've played those early games when they were released, I am (I think) their market they are trying to entice. But they arn't (for me).

Zep--

Breaking my heart but I understand your take.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Weren't e.g. Fargo's Kickstarters just as vague, though? Are you sure you aren't projecting / rationalizing the status quo of this campaign (that is, the fact it isn't getting as much money as possible) onto the KS model as a whole?

Personally I fail to see how exactly Otherside are a lot worse than others, be it when it comes to clunkiness or vagueness. I wonder what Vault Dweller would say about their campaign - probably that they should've have shown any alpha build gameplay at all, if I remember his previous position right.

This is a very unexciting (by that I mean terribly boring) campaign. It's the equivalent of going up on the KS stage and saying 'Ultima Underworld'. That's all they are relying on at this point to loosen up wallets.

Fargo did run a vague campaign but Fargo is a showman. He's good at hyping and lying with a straight face because it's not a lie if you believe it. WL2 was also the first 'we're bringing [old IP] back, fuck yeah!' campaign and by now the magic has faded a bit (as most KS games were good for what they are rather than good) and developers have to work twice as hard to generate the same excitement.

 

[Metro]

I thought that last update was pretty good when they explain how they envision improvisational gameplay working.

All the stuff before then was pretty weak though.

And this. I'll give them credit for a solid update but all the stuff until now has been lukewarm at best.

It's the equivalent of going up on the KS stage and saying 'Ultima Underworld'.

And this. Their initial pitch and updates lacked substance. It was an appeal to nostalgia without very much production value. Then they trotted out a bunch of people who haven't made a decent in a couple decades: Garriott, Spector, etc. Might as well have gotten Moly to endorse it.

 

[Tigranes]

Yep. I have $20 in for now, but that's much more on the basis of me always meaning to try UU and finally trying it. And of course being a LS fan.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You don't know a lot about Kickstarter, do you? inXile had shit. They gave us this crappy-ass footage months AFTER the Kickstarter for Wasteland 2 was over. Obsidian had shit - they were making things up as they went along. Harebrained Schemes, in the first Kickstarter, had shit, and were originally going to make a $400k tablet game. You seem to think the Larian situation was the norm - it isn't.

Both inXile and Obsidian are proper studios, not 'guys, we're putting the band back together!' undertakings that tend to fail more often than not precisely because they don't have the working studios yet.

It's very easy to believe Obsidian when they say (basically), you know who we are, you know what we do, you know what we can do when the leash is off, so give us moneys and we'll do something cool.

 

[Zep Zepo]

This is a very unexciting (by that I mean terribly boring) campaign. It's the equivalent of going up on the KS stage and saying 'Ultima Underworld'. That's all they are relying on at this point to loosen up wallets.

Yeah...a video that said "Ultima Underworld" *drops mic* *fade to black*

Would have worked! (not really!) But it would have been humorous (maybe).

Zep--

 

[Infinitron]

Both inXile and Obsidian are proper studios, not 'guys, we're putting the band back together!' undertakings that tend to fail more often than not precisely because they don't have the working studios yet.

It's very easy to believe Obsidian when they say (basically), you know who we are, you know what we do, you know what we can do when the leash is off, so give us moneys and we'll do something cool.

Setting aside the characterization of inXile post-Hunted: The Demon's Forge mass firing as a "proper studio" (as far as I can tell they had to basically rebuild from almost scratch after the KS, which is a large part of why Wasteland 2 turned out a bit wonky IMO)

Well, they've been working since mid-2014 already: http://www.rpgcodex.net/article.php?id=9516

This comment by Ffordesoon on RPS resonates with me: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/201...cendant-improvisation-engine/#comment-1825093

ffordesoon says:

It’s worth noting that the lead designer of Thief, Tim Stellmach, is the lead designer of UA, and that Warren Spector is a creative advisor on this project. In fact, almost everyone working on this thing was a core member of the Looking Glass team, which is often not the case on Kickstalgia projects. You usually have one or two “names” and a bunch of new recruits. OtherSide is Looking Glass, at least in terms of personnel. I think they should be trumpeting this more.

18/02/2015 at 19:48Lars Westergren says:

Yes, exactly, this is Looking Glass 2.0. Why isn’t this on every front page?

 

[Metro]

Name dropping Spector does nothing for me at this stage of his career (which fell off a cliff awhile ago). And, yes, you could say the same thing about Fargo but, again, Wasteland 2 was one of the first big video game KS projects. There's been a lot of failed/half-assed shit in the interim so if you're making a pitch you have to be aware of that.

Also Fargo is smart enough to avoid shit like coop and VR!

 

[CyberP]

I know these guys as game developers, not publishers. I know they have exceptional talent. I couldn't care less if their pitch is underwhelming in that it is not showing enough of what they plan to do and there's not all that much innovative ideas been shown. All I care about is if they intend to make a game equal to or greater than what they used to put out, and I want them to have a chance of doing so.
My only real concerns is the co-op argh and to a lesser extent some minor possibly unjustified paranoid observations. Either way this is the co-founder Looking Glass so these concerns are automatically bypassed, naive as that may be.

 

[Infinitron]

Oh man, I guess that means the Codex really is clueless when it comes to first person games

On that note, I'd like to add that another thing that this game suffers from is the same thing that adventure games on Kickstarter are suffering from post-Broken Age - a dissipated, demoralized "hardcore" fanbase.

Basically, the Codex = top-down/isometric party-based RPGs. This sort of game isn't really Our Thing(tm). And that's okay. But what should have been happening now is a $10,000 fundraising hype campaign on a site like TTLG.com. Unfortunately, that site is kind of dead/comatose. A mere six pages is all they can muster in their thread for this Kickstarter: http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144977

Why party-based RPGs have managed to maintain their grognardy fanbase while the fans of other genres just gave up and moved on with their lives is an interesting question worthy of study.

 

[Metro]

Is this the Infinitron/Crooked Bee reach around thread?

 

[tuluse]

On that note, I'd like to add that another thing that this game suffers from is the same thing that adventure games on Kickstarter are suffering from post-Broken Age - a dissipated, demoralized "hardcore" fanbase.

Basically, the Codex = top-down/isometric party-based RPGs. This sort of game isn't really Our Thing(tm). What should have been happening now is a $10,000 fundraising hype campaign on a site like TTLG.com. Unfortunately, that site is kind of dead/comatose. A mere six pages is all they can muster in their thread for this Kickstarter: http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144977

Why grognardy RPGs have managed to maintain their fanbase while the fans of other genres just gave up and moved on with their lives is an interesting question worthy of study.

I wonder if part of it is the modding community. If you're looking for a first person simulation fix, well there's about 10 million Thief fan missions and The Dark Mod with a sizable community as well. Plus some similar stuff like Dark Souls.

While for the isometric grand adventure RPG with c&c, well it's taken Irontower studio 10 years to make their game, and there's Prelude to Darkness, and Underrail, and that's about it. There are some things that get kind of close like KotC. Even Underrail got a lot of it's popularity during this ks revival.

No one was making Fallout or BG fan missions of any quality, and no company really took up the torch either. Arkane at least tried to make LGS style game. No one was trying to make Black Isle or SSI style RPGs.

There is a similar thing with adventure games. Head over to the AGS community and you can find pretty decent free adventures to play. Adventure game KS have actually done ok though.

 

[tuluse]

Is this the Infinitron/Crooked Bee reach around thread?

Don't be jelly metro~

 

[Infinitron]

I wonder if part of it is the modding community. If you're looking for a first person simulation fix, well there's about 10 million Thief fan missions and The Dark Mod with a sizable community as well. Plus some similar stuff like Dark Souls.

While for the isometric grand adventure RPG with c&c, well it's taken Irontower studio 10 years to make their game, and there's Prelude to Darkness, and Underrail, and that's about it. There are some things that get kind of close like KotC. Even Underrail got a lot of it's popularity during this ks revival.

No one was making Fallout or BG fan missions of any quality, and no company really took up the torch either. Arkane at least tried to make LGS style game. No one was trying to make Black Isle or SSI style RPGs.

There is a similar thing with adventure games. Head over to the AGS community and you can find pretty decent free adventures to play. Adventure game KS have actually done ok though.

There's probably some truth to that. On the other hand, some MMO spiritual successor Kickstarters have been very successful, and god knows there's plenty of MMOs.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Is this the Infinitron/Crooked Bee reach around thread?

It's late and it's been a really long day and I'm tired, so I've no idea what you're even talking about when you mention Crooked Bee in this context

tuluse I think you overestimate the amount of FP C&C-focused games. Like Infinitron said, I think it's more about the Codex's overall attitude towards isometric vs first person, which is an amusing thing to behold.

tl;dr Not every FP RPG is about "immersion" or "simulation", which I believe is where the Codex tends to err. I couldn't care less about the Thief fan missions personally. Thief mods are nice and all, but... well, yeah.