KickStarter Underworld Ascendant Pre-Release Thread

[Infinitron]

If you just double jump in the same direction as your original jump, doesn't that basically do the same thing? Ideally there's no place where you really need to platform in the first place, though.

EDIT: Yep, I checked and it does.

 

[V_K]

Ideally there's no place where you really need to platform in the first place, though.

And yet, judging from the videos posted here, the prototype is one such big place.

 

[Aenra]

No, it's an action-RPG. It's supposed to require --actual-- physical reflexes. You sound like an out-of-touch snob who thinks "action" is for the unwashed proles.

Riiight..so let me see:

I come off as a snob for noting that there should be a limit in the button mashing/action element else the delineation between RPG and Action/Platformer becomes blurred.
I come off as a snob for depicting a difference in the first place between say the old UUs and something like Dark Souls.

Ok

edit: I'm happy someone uses the word 'tactical', definitely. Insertion however of akshunie elements entails one thing..their being 'needed' or at best 'prefered' in certain scenarios or circumstances, otherwise why bother adding them? So nothing there invalidates my concerns.
edit 2: You reminded me of Lacrymas and Immortal..why am i out of touch? I fully comprehend the how and why of things, modern times be concerned. Need not necessarily imply i have to agree with them.. Or more to the point, be capable of envisioning forms where they can 'happily' merge. What we used to call 'in good measure'?

 

[Infinitron]

Ideally there's no place where you really need to platform in the first place, though.

And yet, judging from the videos posted here, the prototype is one such big place.

Not really, except for the parkour course. The main way to traverse high places in the original prototype map is rope climbing.

 

[V_K]

The main way to traverse high places in the original prototype map is rope climbing.

You still have to jump to get on/off a rope, and sometimes from one rope to another.

 

[Infinitron]

The main way to traverse high places in the original prototype map is rope climbing.

You still have to jump to get on/off a rope, and sometimes from one rope to another.

*shrug* It's nothing we didn't see in Thief.

I get what you're saying, you want a game that's basically a flat dungeon crawler except without the strict grid-based map layouts of your typical blobber. But I don't think there's anything that's really mechanically praiseworthy about that. In UU you can build a character who does melee attacks or a character who casts spells, but otherwise all characters play the game in basically the same way. For integrating environmental traversal with character building, Ascendant is being accused of becoming "less of an RPG".

 

[V_K]

Not really, UUW had spells like Jump, Levitation, Water Walking etc. that allowed you to trade resources (i.e. mana) for lousy reflexes. Granted, some of them were rather high-level stuff but still. Morrowind did better in that regard in that all such spells were acquirable fairly early on and that it gave you more alternatives (magic vs. acrobatics/athletics vs. potions), but worse in the sense that there weren't many places where such abilities were helpful. What they are doing with Ascendant so far is actually the opposite - no matter what your build is, you still have to do the fucking jumping, and the only difference is what kind of jumping that will be.
What I want is a game that is flexible - that gives people who like jumping the opportunity to jump, and to people who hate jumping - the opportunity to have a more cerebral experience.

 

[Infinitron]

Not really, UUW had spells like Jump, Levitation, Water Walking etc. that allowed you to trade resources (i.e. mana) for lousy reflexes. Granted, some of them were rather high-level stuff but still. Morrowind did better in that regard in that all such spells were acquirable fairly early on and that it gave you more alternatives (magic vs. acrobatics/athletics vs. potions), but worse in the sense that there weren't many places where such abilities were helpful. What they are doing with Ascendant so far is actually the opposite - no matter what your build is, you still have to do the fucking jumping, and the only difference is what kind of jumping that will be.
What I want is a game that is flexible - that gives people who like jumping the opportunity to jump, and to people who hate jumping - the opportunity to have a more cerebral experience.

So you want levitation spells, basically? Why don't you wait and see what Underworld's spells are, then.

But yeah if you want a 100% PURE NO JUMP EXPERIENCE because having to jump is for dumb people or something, then I guess you're probably going to be disappointed. The Z axis is here and it's not going away

 

[V_K]

I'm just dyspraxic.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I don't see a problem with this development.

First they create an underground environment that may require more physical activites than jumping and swimming (gasp!), then they create the skills to allow the three different classes to overcome these obstacles, each on their own way.

They're taking pages from Quest For Glory's book of game design: Here's a wall, the Fighter can climb it, the Thief can acrobat himself up it (ropes or parkour) and the Wizard can just Levitate up and over. Better yet, QFG does not restrict each solution to each class - if the Fighter can cast Levitate he can just float over the wall. UUW also allowed for freeform solutions to problems, so they'd have to be crazy not to allow players to mix-and-match skills and spells to advance their character.

This is in line with what UUW1 was about (real-time, freeform exploration and interaction with the environment) and also the evolution of Looking Glass games from that point onwards. Anyone expecting anything else is delusional.

It's also clear that UWA is going for something different and rarely seen these days...you know, what Looking Glass were best known for doing? Daring to go the unbeaten path?

 

[Aenra]

Do you waste any time thinking prior to posting?
We're all aware of everything you said. Everything. And excluding --Zep maybe, no one here expected something radically different and/or thinks-hopes the game will suck.

What you see is a discussion + concerns over what we have thus far. Mayhap, once the wizard path is cemented, it will all end up looking good, diverse and equally viable. Sans said knowledge..again..other than pointing the obvious, was there something you had in mind?

 

[Infinitron]

I don't see a problem with this development.

First they create an underground environment that may require more physical activites than jumping and swimming (gasp!), then they create the skills to allow the three different classes to overcome these obstacles, each on their own way.

They're taking pages from Quest For Glory's book of game design: Here's a wall, the Fighter can climb it, the Thief can acrobat himself up it (ropes or parkour) and the Wizard can just Levitate up and over. Better yet, QFG does not restrict each solution to each class - if the Fighter can cast Levitate he can just float over the wall. UUW also allowed for freeform solutions to problems, so they'd have to be crazy not to allow players to mix-and-match skills and spells to advance their character.

This is in line with what UUW1 was about (real-time, freeform exploration and interaction with the environment) and also the evolution of Looking Glass games from that point onwards. Anyone expecting anything else is delusional.

It's also clear that UWA is going for something different and rarely seen these days...you know, what Looking Glass were best known for doing? Daring to go the unbeaten path?

Yeah, the main concern here is whether they'll have enough time to create good content that uses all of these options (the Quest for Glory failure equivalent would be QFG3 I guess, sort of) but we don't have enough evidence of that right now one way or the other.

But FWIW, there wasn't anything platformy about the Shadow Beast video, which is the only non-prototype gameplay footage we've seen so far.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Do you waste any time thinking prior to posting?
We're all aware of everything you said. Everything. And excluding --Zep maybe, no one here expected something radically different and/or thinks-hopes the game will suck.

What you see is a discussion + concerns over what we have thus far. Mayhap, once the wizard path is cemented, it will all end up looking good, diverse and equally viable. Sans said knowledge..again..other than pointing the obvious, was there something you had in mind?

We're taking different approaches to the discussion.

You assume that everyone reading (and posting here) knows everything about the topic, i.e. overestimating the readerbase.

I assume that there are at least some people reading this that don't know everything about the topic or are ill-informed, i.e. underestimating the readerbase (though not to the point of thinking people are clueless). The last 2 pages alone show examples of people coming at this game with strange preconceptions.

Besides, people are voicing their opinions here, so why shouldn't I?

Now go take your medication and just chill.

 

[Aenra]

Fine. Let us regurgitate some more then .. who they were, what they proclaim to be aiming at.. and call it an 'opinion' a day. Even if this entails the danger of a-priori excusing whatever decision they happen to be making. Even those potentially worthy of a closer look.
Yeah, all good by me, carry on and my sincere apologies

 

[Darth Slaughter]

The problem with parkour in the video posted is the prince of persia sands of time approach. wall running and climbing through a narrow passage is cool, but they should avoid being to phisics bending. The wall bouncing back and forth would be ok for the maximum of 3 jumps, but a perpetual motion feels too artificial. And wall run would work for maybe 4 steps maximum. In prince of persia, wall running covered a very long distance, and you could run even convex walls. It felt weird.

 

[Darkzone]

I think that giving a fighter the parkour abilities is a mistake, such things should be reserved for the nimble thief who does not carry heavy armor and weapons.

 

[Malignant Manor]

The testing area needs to have lots of the wall jumping and wall running so it can be tested and people can learn how to do it. It would not have the same concentration as the game world like mentioned before, skills also help out.

 

[Mustawd]

You sound like an out-of-touch snob who thinks "action" is for the unwashed proles.

Pretty much.

 

[Aenra]

Toss a characterisation, press reply, done; all the while avoiding my explainations in their entirety. Easy, isn't it? Has either of you fucktards (jew and mustawd) read my reply? Here, let me help, my response in full:

so let me see:

I come off as a snob for noting that there should be a limit in the button mashing/action element else the delineation between RPG and Action/Platformer becomes blurred.
I come off as a snob for depicting a difference in the first place between say the old UUs and something like Dark Souls.

Ok

edit: I'm happy someone uses the word 'tactical', definitely. Insertion however of akshunie elements entails one thing..their being 'needed' or at best 'prefered' in certain scenarios or circumstances, otherwise why bother adding them? So nothing there invalidates my concerns.
edit 2: You reminded me of Lacrymas and Immortal..why am i out of touch? I fully comprehend the how and why of things, modern times be concerned. Need not necessarily imply i have to agree with them.. Or more to the point, be capable of envisioning forms where they can 'happily' merge. What we used to call 'in good measure'?

Unless, being fucktards the both of you, you just refuse to accept a different opinion? I mean you got every right to, except a snob is usually just that.. someone unwilling to accept or give merit to stances differing from their own. Notice me saying how 'i get it', just do not agree, how i'd be happy to know (and it might come to be) that everything will be in good measure (ie not 101% akshunie). That's snobbish huh? Morons. Can you even argument?

 

[Ash]

Now we have double-jumping too? I can't believe this shit..

Am getting that Tomb Raider vibe again, eerily strong. I hope the wizard can simply use UUS+HUR+POR and be done with it. Am way past my button mashing age, sorry guys

edit: If the devs are reading this thread, it would be so very tragic if we all ended up like --Zep. Could you please put an end to the platformer shit? We kinda want an RPG here. Thanks.

There was platforming in Ultima Underworld, Thief series, System Shock series and Deus Ex. And so there damn well should be.
I guess you don't remember jumping across ravines in Underworld? Spelunking is no joke!
Sadly, the only modern FP game to feature any meaningful verticality to its level design and platforming in its gameplay has been Dishonored. Bring the old standard of incline back. Old games generally offered variety and gameplay depth and platforming was a part of that for the vast majority of real time games.

I think that giving a fighter the parkour abilities is a mistake, such things should be reserved for the nimble thief who does not carry heavy armor and weapons.

I dislike the class-based system they are going for in general. All their classics were classless, the RPG systems were not bound by class but rather build C&C was determined by not providing enough resources to max a character.
Still, I'd appreciate a more restrictive approach to enforce vastly differing playstyles per playthrough, but ultimately there's less freedom. I'm happy to wait and see where they take it though.

Anyhow, to address your concern directly: I think the fighter should have double jump, and the Thief should have wall running. That would diversify and define the two nicely.

 

[Aenra]

I do remember

I don't want it 'easy' and i'm not stuck in my cave either, expecting a ""faithful"" remake, ie a cloning of the originals.
What i hinted at (as usually i get carried away, so hinted at + some swearing) is that when real time + first person, there is A limit to things; or we enter the button-masher land and things get blurred, since it's no longer your stats/perks, understanding and tactics that define your progress, but rather your finger reflexes. Pewpew land. As non-RPG as you could have it. Again, in my definition.
Now i will once again state the equally obvious, that yes, people've already got so used to this mismatch of shooter-RPGesque elements that it does not always strike them as something bad/worthy of noticing. It is however a distinction i personally still make. Shoot me.
I don't mind such elements as long as they're present in a degree that does not make me feel as if i'm playing Tomb Raider Ascendant. Or as long as there will be a wizard class equivalent that will allow me to ignore them. Just me.

And for the love of God, you need not remind anyone (yet again) about their wanting to once again 'drive this genre forward'. Pioneers can and should be judged by their actions. Not their desires.

edit: You could also cease mentioning Thief, System Shock and UUI-II as that 'one', 'same thing'. They were all great games (i loved them), but they were not all the same. Yes? We are talking about UA the RPG here, not Thief the stealth game, or SS the half horror/half FPS game.

 

[Ash]

"I don't mind it if it is present in a degree that does not make me feel as if i'm playing Tomb Raider"

Yeah, I guess judging by these new skills there may be more platforming focus than usual (I'm cool with that), yet we can expect it still won't feel like Tomb Raider among all the RPG systems, dialogue choices, simulation design and intricate interactivity, multi-layered plot, combat that isn't a lock-on snoozefest (assuming we are talking about the original & best Tomb Raider games), but other than that the games did share a bit in common anyway really. We raided tombs in Underworld :D

 

[Darth Slaughter]

Instead of double jump - which is idiotic and has a very video-game feeling - they should have a high jump.

 

[Ash]

Instead of double jump - which is idiotic and has a very video-game feeling - they should have a high jump.

Double jump is far more interesting than high jump from a gameplay standpoint, but definitely more gamey, yeah. This is a world of magic and fantastical creatures though. As long as they still retain heavy sim design elsewhere a few questionable things can pass for the greater good I think. Can't the fighter simply have enchanted boots? That would qualify, but of course then it would no longer be a skill and nobody would want to change their boots.
We had high jump in Underworld and DX, this would mix it up nicely. Double jump has been exceptionally fun in every game that has featured it, but I don't ever recall seeing it in a first person game (except for some shitty mini-game I made years ago).

 

[Zep Zepo]

I wish I was drunk. My dick would be so hard, reading all the above non-sense.

Zep--