Vapourware Unknown Realm: The Siege Perilous - an 8-bit RPG for PC and Commodore 64

[shilence]

I went through the trouble of creating an account to say this, apologies if it's already been said somewhere in the previous 43 pages.

I stumbled about the Unknown Realm kickstarter page by chance earlier this evening, followed by this thread when I went looking for a review, or status of the project. I was curious because...

...from what I can see displayed on the kickstarter, I'm pretty confident that what is presented cannot be created on a non-expanded/stock (memory wise, at the least) C64, unless that cartridge has a additional RAM built in, or they go with a large number of floppies and a crazy amount of swapping (assuming this is to run a real C64, and not an emulator that can get around these limitations, at least somewhat).

I'm 50 now. I got my C64 when I was 12-13 and spent so much over the next 5+ years on it (learning how to program, mainly) that my spine was growing in crooked from all the sitting, and had to have some medical assistance. I still remember, and have a good feel, for what is and is not possible given the limitations (ie- even if you use some of the 'clever' raster tricks for graphics in ASM, or the hidden 'ram-under-rom' area that boosts things to around 80k, etc).

I just felt compelled to share my take, as I owe the C64 a very large thanks for where my life ended up going (for the better).

I'm about in the same boat!

If you're interested in a quick rundown about the cartridge: https://rentry.co/unknownrealm#game-cartridge
A guy creating flash cartridges tried to talk to Bruce early in development, but he refused any help since he had the cartridge done by 2017:

https://twitter.com/pagan_realm/status/1672941094131179522/photo/1

 

[adamantyr]

I went through the trouble of creating an account to say this, apologies if it's already been said somewhere in the previous 43 pages.

I stumbled about the Unknown Realm kickstarter page by chance earlier this evening, followed by this thread when I went looking for a review, or status of the project. I was curious because...

...from what I can see displayed on the kickstarter, I'm pretty confident that what is presented cannot be created on a non-expanded/stock (memory wise, at the least) C64, unless that cartridge has a additional RAM built in, or they go with a large number of floppies and a crazy amount of swapping (assuming this is to run a real C64, and not an emulator that can get around these limitations, at least somewhat).

I'm 50 now. I got my C64 when I was 12-13 and spent so much over the next 5+ years on it (learning how to program, mainly) that my spine was growing in crooked from all the sitting, and had to have some medical assistance. I still remember, and have a good feel, for what is and is not possible given the limitations (ie- even if you use some of the 'clever' raster tricks for graphics in ASM, or the hidden 'ram-under-rom' area that boosts things to around 80k, etc).

I just felt compelled to share my take, as I owe the C64 a very large thanks for where my life ended up going (for the better).

I had the same thought myself. I'm not a 6502 programmer, but some things didn't look right to me.

The scrolling engine, which was demonstrated in 2012, definitely exists, but that's really only the start of an engine. A lot of the details like animation, NPC schedules, etc. seems to me to be a LOT to ask to keep track of in real-time.

Also, the graphics themselves. Depending on how many unique tiles and portraits, I imagine a lot of that data may have to be pushed to either external storage like the disk drive or stored in memory pages in a mega cartridge? 64k of RAM won't go that far.

I mean, Ultima V on the C64 is taxing the system to it's limit. I generally found it was better to play on the C128.

 

[shilence]

I went through the trouble of creating an account to say this, apologies if it's already been said somewhere in the previous 43 pages.

I stumbled about the Unknown Realm kickstarter page by chance earlier this evening, followed by this thread when I went looking for a review, or status of the project. I was curious because...

...from what I can see displayed on the kickstarter, I'm pretty confident that what is presented cannot be created on a non-expanded/stock (memory wise, at the least) C64, unless that cartridge has a additional RAM built in, or they go with a large number of floppies and a crazy amount of swapping (assuming this is to run a real C64, and not an emulator that can get around these limitations, at least somewhat).

I'm 50 now. I got my C64 when I was 12-13 and spent so much over the next 5+ years on it (learning how to program, mainly) that my spine was growing in crooked from all the sitting, and had to have some medical assistance. I still remember, and have a good feel, for what is and is not possible given the limitations (ie- even if you use some of the 'clever' raster tricks for graphics in ASM, or the hidden 'ram-under-rom' area that boosts things to around 80k, etc).

I just felt compelled to share my take, as I owe the C64 a very large thanks for where my life ended up going (for the better).

I had the same thought myself. I'm not a 6502 programmer, but some things didn't look right to me.

The scrolling engine, which was demonstrated in 2012, definitely exists, but that's really only the start of an engine. A lot of the details like animation, NPC schedules, etc. seems to me to be a LOT to ask to keep track of in real-time.

Also, the graphics themselves. Depending on how many unique tiles and portraits, I imagine a lot of that data may have to be pushed to either external storage like the disk drive or stored in memory pages in a mega cartridge? 64k of RAM won't go that far.

I mean, Ultima V on the C64 is taxing the system to it's limit. I generally found it was better to play on the C128.

Uhm, you're clearly just jealous.
They managed to cram in 2000 tiles into the game four years ago!

https://ghostarchive.org/archive/QuXs8

They're truly the most bestest programmers out there.

(oh lol, just saw that you commented the tweet :D)

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Ya’ll try Ultima 6 on c64? Oh Lordy god! Oh fuck!

 

[tbadiuk2]

Ya’ll try Ultima 6 on c64? Oh Lordy god! Oh fuck!

That's a great example. Sure, if they do what they did with the multiple "Populance" disks in U6 then it's theoretically possible, at least in terms of memory/storage. However, I can't see it being anything but a swap-fest.

 

[Ladonna]

Ya’ll try Ultima 6 on c64? Oh Lordy god! Oh fuck!

I finished it. The game itself wasn't bad, except it didn't have any sound, but the disk swapping....you had to insert the populace disk every time you talked to someone. I thought at the time that they should have just reworked the story a little and wrote it into the Ultima V engine for 8 bit computers (this way it could have been released on Apple II as well, had some sound, etc). When I played the game again years later on a PC, I couldn't believe how much stuff they had to leave out in the 64 version.

I did try it on an Amiga, but the disk swapping was as bad, or possibly worse, than the C64. Clearly meant for someone with an expensive Amiga hard drive.

Which brings us back to the current game in question...

 

[tbadiuk2]

<snip>

I'm about in the same boat!

If you're interested in a quick rundown about the cartridge: https://rentry.co/unknownrealm#game-cartridge
A guy creating flash cartridges tried to talk to Bruce early in development, but he refused any help since he had the cartridge done by 2017:

https://twitter.com/pagan_realm/status/1672941094131179522/photo/1

Thanks for the link, I just had a chance to check it out. Ok, so this makes sense:

"All of over 1000 code and data files gets compiled and packed into 2MB, the largest 8-bit RPG every on cartridge! =12 floppies!"

So if they were able to make it work somehow with say quick bank swapping $C000-$D000 then I can see it being feasible.

I guess it's kind of a neat idea, but quite a lot of effort (clearly, maybe too much effort) for what it is.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

I salute thee for the c64 persistence. At least my box in storage is nice.

 

[Ladonna]

I salute thee for the c64 persistence. At least my box in storage is nice.

When that is all you have, you endure. There wasn't much coming out for the C64 by then, and I hadn't gotten the hand-me-down Amiga from my brother yet.

 

[adamantyr]

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

How fucking hard is it to take a screenshot and upload it to photobucket, imgur, or any other image site. Shit... pint screen, open up ms-paint and paste and save (UR0001 or some shit... Bruce1) then upload and link. Takes a real fucking genius for that.

 

[Ladonna]

How fucking hard is it to take a screenshot and upload it to photobucket, imgur, or any other image site. Shit... pint screen, open up ms-paint and paste and save (UR0001 or some shit... Bruce1) then upload and link. Takes a real fucking genius for that.

If you don't have a game, then it can require some real effort.

 

[Atrachasis]

How fucking hard is it to take a screenshot and upload it to photobucket, imgur, or any other image site. Shit... pint screen, open up ms-paint and paste and save (UR0001 or some shit... Bruce1) then upload and link. Takes a real fucking genius for that.

If you don't have a game, then it can require some real effort.

TBH, all you need is an engine and a few tiles.

The fact that it would be so ridiculously easy to fake actual effort is actually the most convincing argument that this is not a scam.

 

[shilence]

View attachment 46340

"Same as it ever was..."

Wait, all they did is show a 3D render of the cartridge.

"When it comes to projects that involve manufacturing and distributing hardware, gadgets, and other physical products, you're required to also show a prototype."

"Prototype demonstration should reflect a product’s current state and should not include any CGI or special effects to demonstrate functionality that does not yet exist."

https://www.kickstarter.com/rules

The only image ever shown:

So no prototype was demonstrated anyways and the only picture we've got is a 3D render.

 

[thesheeep]

It is morning here, but I am fairly sure this dev's approach to software development and marketing is the most stupid thing I will see all day.

"If I'm making a game that I need to market, I'm making the wrong game"
.... someone's been living under a very heavy rock for the last 25 years or so.

I mean, there are great games out there that are awesome, but nobody knows about because the dev never went out to tell anyone.
There are others where the devs did everything correctly, went out and talked, but... it just didn't gain traction despite being a good game.
With the sheer amount of games out there, you can't just pretend that a good game will sell itself. That's pure madness.

It really isn't a ton of effort to dedicate a day per month, or hell, every two months, to update the people you want to care about your product.

The fact that it would be so ridiculously easy to fake actual effort is actually the most convincing argument that this is not a scam.

It is even easier to pretend to be offended at people demanding any proof.

Of course, it is always a good base assumption to not attribute to malice what can be attributed to sheer stupidity.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Yeah, they don't give a rat's ass about people AFTER they got the $$$$.

 

[adamantyr]

A marketing genius at work... *SARCASM* (By which I mean Stirring Dragon, not Joel)

 

[shilence]

View attachment 46388

A marketing genius at work... *SARCASM* (By which I mean Stirring Dragon, not Joel)

It is really hard for me to find any words for behaviour like this. And hey, I'm German, we've got a lot of highly descriptive words for almost every situation!

To summarize:
Backer: Show us proof you're working on the game
SDG: The screenshots are proof enough
Backer: Show better proof, screenshots can easily be faked
SDG: ...
SDG later on twitter: Look at this idiot, our screenshots are so phenomenal people think we're faking them!

Is Bruce really this mental? How is he able to function in real life? How is he able to hold a discussion? And where's the cartridge?

 

[Ladonna]

 

[newtmonkey]

He is simply a scam artist. It's just how these scumbags think.

 

[adamantyr]

Ladonna I see your George Michael and raise you a Henry Rollins!

 

[shilence]

Bruce uses DEFLECT!

It's not very effective.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Bruce uses DEFLECT!

It's not very effective.

How could you say we're scammers? Don't you know that this guy who you didn't call a scammer is a scammer?

 

[adamantyr]

Bruce uses DEFLECT!

It's not very effective.

Antagonizing the guy who founded Big Box PC Game Collectors group on FB, and would be a valuable resource for marketing and word-of-mouth, is pretty lacking in judgment...

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Bruce is an idiot.