World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Heroic Liberator]

I can only imagine kine politics or the progressive flavor of the month would only be relevant to the kindred society if it indicated the possibility of the masquerade being breached.

But it will be all in Bloodlines 2 because the game is a sock-puppet, and its puppeteers are the ones who want to inject modern-day issues into a world where none of that would be relevant.

Eh, it can make sense depending on one's clan (e.g. Brujah) and path/road of enlightenment, but I'm certain that they'll stretch the lore as to bring it to the forefront.

 

[compvet24]

Eh, it can make sense depending on one's clan (e.g. Brujah) and path/road of enlightenment, but I'm certain that they'll stretch the lore as to bring it to the forefront.

I can definitely understand Brujah's like Damsel using concepts like Communism, since the whole Anarch movement seems to be an allegory for Communism anyway.

 

[Nano]

I do not wish to scare you, chaver, yet it seems that you are coming down with a case of philosophical idealism.

I think that you can't really argue with solipsism. Does that make me an idealist?

 

[Harthwain]

This might not be blindingly obvious to some of you because of your straightness, but sexuality is a political matter.

To vampires? They obviously have their preferences when it comes to who they want to eat or have relationships with (gay vampires, for example), but... that's it. "Sexuality as a political matter" is human point of view, since vampires don't have a sex drive. They are literally asexual, while being sexual fantasy (ironically enough). Vampires desire other things (blood, power, knowledge, survival). So forgive me when I say that blowing the whole LGBT thing, like it's somehow important for the setting, is missing the mark. Big time. I mean, we're talking about a situation where the game starts with you NOT being a human any longer, on a physical level.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I do not wish to scare you, chaver, yet it seems that you are coming down with a case of philosophical idealism.

I think that you can't really argue with solipsism. Does that make me an idealist?

No, but thinking that thought (a.i. the political superstructure) precedes matter (a.i. the economic base) does. Sexuality, when politicized, serves as nothing more than a tool instrumentalized by the elites as to divide the masses (a.i. identity politics) and to exalt themselves (either as supposed emancipators on the left or as upholders of tradition on the right). Consequently, to say that sexuality is a political matter (or rather that it ought to be given that anything can be politicized), is nothing more than a display of false class consciousness (and ergo idealism).

 

[Thac0]

This might not be blindingly obvious to some of you because of your straightness, but sexuality is a political matter.

To vampires? They obviously have their preferences when it comes to who they want to eat or have relationships with (gay vampires, for example), but... that's it. "Sexuality as a political matter" is human point of view, since vampires don't have a sex drive. They are literally asexual, while being sexual fantasy (ironically enough). Vampires desire other things (blood, power, knowledge, survival). So forgive me when I say that blowing the whole LGBT thing, like it's somehow important for the setting, is missing the mark. Big time. I mean, we're talking about a situation where the game starts with you NOT being a human any longer, on a physical level.

This does not apply to the Toreador, those fuckers are definitly horny despite also using their sexuality to their advantage.
Vampires as a being of Mythos are linked to sexuality ever since they came up again in the 1800s-1900s. Mostly as a sexual predator type thing, although there are some out there theories about Vampires being a class metaphor.

 

[Harthwain]

This does not apply to the Toreador, those fuckers are definitly horny despite also using their sexuality to their advantage.

O'rly? Because my understanding of vampires (at least in Vampire the Masquerade) was that vampires are impotent, although they have the option - or had, when I was last reviewing the rules - to pick a skill that allows their sexual organs to work. At cost of blood (which is more important to vampires than anything else). Also, feeding feels better for them than sex does for humans, so it's questionable why a vampire would prefer to have sex over drinking blood, unless they'd want to manipulate a human. But I am interested to see the evidence to the contrary.

Vampires as a being of Mythos are linked to sexuality ever since they came up again in the 1800s-1900s. Mostly as a sexual predator type thing, although there are some out there theories about Vampires being a class metaphor.

At this point I am not sure what you're getting at. While vampires in Vampire: The Masquerade are indeed predators who are part sexual fantasy in human imagination (this much is true, but I never said otherwise, so... *shrug*), they are also asexual.

 

[neurosys]

In classic world of darkness, I think it was never quite explicit, but my impression was that vampires are not able to have physical sexual stimulation like humans do. It is mostly a psychological inferiority complex and pretense to show their sexuality even though not enjoying it like a human would do in physical way. It's sort of like a vampire having a fireplace in their dwelling, even though they are dreaded at looking at it because neither the warmth is pleasant, nor it brings them any sense of peace or safety, but just the opposite, the risk of Rötschreck - suffering psychosis from the fear of fire. A Toreador is no different. Their sexuality can only be possible as far as it is with a limp ex-reproduction organ (or maybe a fake erection using precious vitae) and a pretentious fake personality and charm to try to seduce their victim's (undead and alive) for whatever whimsical desire they want to achieve. Ultimately they are ever becoming just monster, or the beast, an accursed unholy creature whose sole existence is defined by addiction, pretense and fear, but they go to all lengths to hide this hopeless fact.

 

[Ol' Willy]

so it's questionable why a vampire would prefer to have sex over drinking blood, unless they'd want to manipulate a human. But I am interested to see the evidence to the contrary.

Ask Jeanette, mate.

 

[Sarkile]

This does not apply to the Toreador, those fuckers are definitly horny despite also using their sexuality to their advantage.

O'rly? Because my understanding of vampires (at least in Vampire the Masquerade) was that vampires are impotent, although they have the option - or had, when I was last reviewing the rules - to pick a skill that allows their sexual organs to work. At cost of blood (which is more important to vampires than anything else). Also, feeding feels better for them than sex does for humans, so it's questionable why a vampire would prefer to have sex over drinking blood, unless they'd want to manipulate a human. But I am interested to see the evidence to the contrary.

I'm not super up to date with 5E, since it sucks ass, but the only way to have children was to be super low gen in older school VTM. That allowed for actual Dhampirs, which were something like Ghouls without the need to ingest vampire blood. I think it was featured in Time of Thin Blood?

 

[Thac0]

This does not apply to the Toreador, those fuckers are definitly horny despite also using their sexuality to their advantage.

O'rly? Because my understanding of vampires (at least in Vampire the Masquerade) was that vampires are impotent, although they have the option - or had, when I was last reviewing the rules - to pick a skill that allows their sexual organs to work. At cost of blood (which is more important to vampires than anything else). Also, feeding feels better for them than sex does for humans, so it's questionable why a vampire would prefer to have sex over drinking blood, unless they'd want to manipulate a human. But I am interested to see the evidence to the contrary.

Vampires as a being of Mythos are linked to sexuality ever since they came up again in the 1800s-1900s. Mostly as a sexual predator type thing, although there are some out there theories about Vampires being a class metaphor.

At this point I am not sure what you're getting at. While vampires in Vampire: The Masquerade are indeed predators who are part sexual fantasy in human imagination (this much is true, but I never said otherwise, so... *shrug*), they are also asexual.

Afaik they do it because they are just super hedonistic in 5e. They are impotent but those with excess choose to fuck for the hell of it with that warm touch ability.
As for the second point vampires + sex is a connection as old as modern thought about vampires. It wouldnt be weird for a political vampire rpg to get political about sex aswell. But the games writing is gonna suck since they cut Avellone even before the metoo shit so its not gonna matter much.

 

[thesheeep]

they are also asexual.

This is the first time I've ever heard anyone claim this as a general rule.
At least for VtM / WoD.

Sure, there are mythologies around in which vampires have no sex drive.
But I have yet to see a single product for VtM / WoD, including rule books, in which vampires are not very much sexually active (and actually sexually diverse, always have been in VtM). Of course, some aren't interested in sexuality. Some are certainly asexual, but by far not all of them.
Vampires are just humans with superpowers, really, they don't change their entire being and personality once embraced - except of course for personal developments over time (and with much more time available than a normal human).

Someone who enjoyed sex while alive won't suddenly have zero interest in it after the embrace - even though they might indeed have trouble getting hard or wet (and that's where skills/feats come into play in some systems or with some DMs).
I could see vampires gradually turning more and more asexual over time, as a result of either their lack of functioning body parts and/or a "been there, done that" lack of interest.

 

[Lambach]

But I have yet to see a single product for VtM / WoD, including rule books, in which vampires are not very much sexually active (and actually sexually diverse, always have been in VtM). Of course, some aren't interested in sexuality. Some are certainly asexual, but by far not all of them.

When's the last time you've read a VtM Rulebook? It's explicitly stated Kindred aren't interested in bumping uglies and those who appear to be interested, only do it in order to feed. Hell, to even be capable of the act itself, they have to expend Vitae, 8 - Humanity Score in Blood Points, which for a lot of Vampires can be a cost of 2-3 Blood Points, which is pretty hefty and it's not something they're likely to do just so they can feel a pale imitation of the real thing. They are corpses for cryin' out loud, when's the last time you saw a corpse with a sexual drive?

Hell, forget the source material, just tune back into the first Bloodlines where several characters point out that Vampires don't fuck and what a complete weirdo and a freak Jeanette is for doing so.

 

[neurosys]

Vampires are just humans with superpowers

I think this is one common point of disagreement and confusion (and general problem with later revisions) about VtM due to pre-conceptions of vampires in popular culture. It's important to first note that there's not one single type of vampire stereotype in literature, all can be pretty different than each other (although VtM is largely inspired by Ann Rice's version, it's not the same). The one presented in VtM (at least in the earlier game books) are only humans as far as they think or pretend to be. The differences start with fundamental needs. They don't want to eat food, nor want to reproduce by having sex, but by feeding, nor they want the warmth of fire anymore. The company of other humans is not for the social needs humans have. They are perhaps more similar to a predator animal in terms of their base instincts. Of course there is the on-average 30-40 years of human way of living, which will be hard to maintain for the next many more nights to follow, never desiring the same things as they did before. Thinking they are just humans with super powers is a misleading over simplification, and deprives the game from the psychological transformation element it has (and all the game/roll mechanics around it), i.e. the transformation from being a human to a accursed beast (which is not an animal, but something akin to it).

Losing their Humanity is central to the whole idea of Vampires in the world of WoD. What they try to maintain as being a human is a pretense.

 

[thesheeep]

It's explicitly stated Kindred aren't interested in bumping uglies and those who appear to be interested, only do it in order to feed. Hell, to even be capable of the act itself, they have to expend Vitae, 8 - Humanity Score in Blood Points, which for a lot of Vampires can be a cost of 2-3 Blood Points, which is pretty hefty and it's not something they're likely to do just so they can feel a pale imitation of the real thing. They are corpses for cryin' out loud, when's the last time you saw a corpse with a sexual drive?

I'm not interested in bumping uglies, either, and I'm not a corpse. I think. So that's not much of an argument.
Anyway, the corpses argument is moot to begin with, as we are talking about magic here. Corpses shouldn't walk around, cast spells and have a desire to suck blood, either. But having a sex drive, sure, that's a stretch
The rest is just rules, which is irrelevant for the point at hand, which is if they are asexual or not, if they have an interest in it or not.

There's a big difference between between having no sex because you really have no interest in it and having no sex because you simply can't.
The first one is asexuality, the second is just someone who can't have sex. Sexuality is about what you are into, what you enjoy, not what your body can or cannot do.

As I said, I think it makes sense that most vampires don't really have sex because of the cost involved (if you go by the standard rules).
In addition to having The Kiss, which is just better to them.
But that doesn't mean they wouldn't like to have or enjoy sex, and they are therefore not asexual.

 

[Ol' Willy]

when's the last time you saw a corpse with a sexual drive

Spoiler

 

[Lambach]

Anyway, the corpses argument is moot to begin with, as we are talking about magic here. Corpses shouldn't walk around, cast spells and have a desire to suck blood, either. But having a sex drive, sure, that's a stretch

Ah, the "it's magic so it doesn't have to have internal consistency" argument, truly an evergreen classic.

It's a stretch because it's explicitly stated multiple times that they don't do it because they're completely uninterested in it and they have no sex drive. According to the rules, yes they're corpses who can shoot fire out of their hands, and they're also corpses with no sex drive. Them's the established rules. You can argue they don't make sense all you want, but such are the rules of WoD.

The rest is just rules, which is irrelevant for the point at hand, which is if they are asexual or not, if they have an interest in it or not.

There's a big difference between between having no sex because you really have no interest in it and having no sex because you simply can't.
The first one is asexuality, the second is just someone who can't have sex. Sexuality is about what you are into, what you enjoy, not what your body can or cannot do.

As I said, I think it makes sense that most vampires don't really have sex because of the cost involved (if you go by the standard rules).
In addition to having The Kiss, which is just better to them.
But that doesn't mean they wouldn't like to have or enjoy sex, and they are therefore not asexual.

Man, my back hurts just from watching you twist yourself into a pretzel to try and explain your nonsensical arguments here.

 

[thesheeep]

It's a stretch because it's explicitly stated multiple times that they don't do it because they're completely uninterested in it and they have no sex drive.

That's simply not the case.
What it does state is that sex is not as intense as The Kiss, but still very much enjoyable.
They don't need it for reproduction, true, but since when do you need reproduction to enjoy sex?

From the V20 edition (page 9, if you don't believe me):

Vampires have sex. True. It’s a great way to feed, but carnal pleasures don’t mean as much to the Kindred. Feeding, which vampires call “the Kiss,” is an incredibly intoxicating and erotic experience for Cainites and their victims. Sex is great, but nothing truly replaces the ecstasy of feeding for a vampire.

"Sex is great" - hardly sounds asexual to me.

Man, my back hurts just from watching you twist yourself into a pretzel to try and explain your nonsensical arguments here.

I'm just trying to explain the nature of asexuality to you and why vampires in VtM are not asexual, they just often don't have sex.
Which you don't seem to get, so... eh, whatever, this isn't nearly important enough to try and explain to you even further.

 

[Lambach]

From the V20 edition

Oh, I see what the problem is now.

 

[thesheeep]

From the V20 edition

Oh, I see what the problem is now.

What an argument.

Terribly sorry that a non-imaginary and current edition of the ruleset you claim says something, actually says something else.
You are the one who brought the rulesets into this, now you'll have to deal with being wrong.

 

[Sykar]

Iirc, politics and faction drama in Bloodlines 1 were about power, the masquerade, and how to govern vampire society, not what kind of fetishes are acceptable.

To be honest, *political* side of Bloodlines is kinda goofy.

Camarilla: we are the guardians of order! Thus, clown who want to diablerize the antediluvian is promoted to Prince of entire LA.
Anarchs: fuck Camarilla! We will fight for our freedom! Thus, those guys keep sitting at their shitty bar and whining.
Sabbat: we want to stop the tyranny of Elder ones! Thus, they enlist the most despicable thugs and employ Tzimisce with their unsound methods.
Chinks: we want to take hold in LA. Thus, they buy in all the hoax with the sarcophagus.

The game is basically about Jack swinging all the factions around his rod all laughing while at it.

But most importantly:

 

[Lambach]

Terribly sorry that a non-imaginary and current edition of the ruleset you claim says something, actually says something else.
You are the one who brought the rulesets into this, now you'll have to deal with being wrong.

Well, if we're gonna play the "gotcha!" game:

But I have yet to see a single product for VtM / WoD, including rule books, in which vampires are not very much sexually active

Older versions were quite explicit about this, whereas V20 is literally a retcon of a retcon, so.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Sykar]

But I have yet to see a single product for VtM / WoD, including rule books, in which vampires are not very much sexually active (and actually sexually diverse, always have been in VtM). Of course, some aren't interested in sexuality. Some are certainly asexual, but by far not all of them.

When's the last time you've read a VtM Rulebook? It's explicitly stated Kindred aren't interested in bumping uglies and those who appear to be interested, only do it in order to feed. Hell, to even be capable of the act itself, they have to expend Vitae, 8 - Humanity Score in Blood Points, which for a lot of Vampires can be a cost of 2-3 Blood Points, which is pretty hefty and it's not something they're likely to do just so they can feel a pale imitation of the real thing. They are corpses for cryin' out loud, when's the last time you saw a corpse with a sexual drive?

Hell, forget the source material, just tune back into the first Bloodlines where several characters point out that Vampires don't fuck and what a complete weirdo and a freak Jeanette is for doing so.

Well I guess that can make the female MC a freak too:

 

[Ol' Willy]

Well I guess that can make the female MC a freak too:

Romero was a Mitsoda character. Guess what his new entourage think about this piece of job.

 

[Harthwain]

But I have yet to see a single product for VtM / WoD, including rule books, in which vampires are not very much sexually active

Older versions were quite explicit about this, whereas V20 is literally a retcon of a retcon, so.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

For the record: I was talking about 1st Edition and got pretty much the same impression as Lambach from reading that rulebook, which explains the difference in perspective when compared to 2nd Edition.