World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Sykar]

Well I guess that can make the female MC a freak too:

Romero was a Mitsoda character. Guess what his new entourage think about this piece of job.

Probably

and

 

[Lambach]

For the record: I was talking about 1st Edition and got pretty much the same impression as Lambach from reading that rulebook, which explains the difference in perspective when compared to 2nd Edition.

It's not even the 2nd Edition, tho, that one is very similar to the 1st and only some rules were cleaned up and improved (and Sabbat was made into more of a more-or-less proper Sect rather than just generic bad guys you're supposed to shoot and pay no heed to). The "old" WoD ended with the Gehenna books. Then they retconed the whole thing and made Requiem. Then it turns out Requiem sucked balls and wasn't selling, so they retconed the previous retcon and came up with V20.

Then they decided that wasn't garbage enough, so they decided to shoot the setting in the head and piss on its corpse via V5.

 

[Harthwain]

It's not even the 2nd Edition, tho, that one is very similar to the 1st and only some rules were cleaned up and improved (and Sabbat was made into more of a more-or-less proper Sect rather than just generic bad guys you're supposed to shoot and pay no heed to). The "old" WoD ended with the Gehenna books. Then they retconed the whole thing and made Requiem. Then it turns out Requiem sucked balls and wasn't selling, so they retconed the previous retcon and came up with V20.

Then they decided that wasn't garbage enough, so they decided to shoot the setting in the head and piss on its corpse via V5.

I see. Thank you for informing me. I thought "V20" was a shorthand for "Version 2.0" (I am not really up to date on PnP stuff these days).

 

[Roguey]

Stop caring about gay vampires.

 

[Swole dude]

What are the chances that this game will turn out alright? Give it to me straight.

 

[Wunderbar]

There's still hope that Rik Schaffer's soundtrack will turn out good.

 

[Latro]

What an argument.

Well, The Kiss quite clearly replaces the compulsive function of sex that humans have - in fact, it's much more stronger since it is both sex + feeding at the same time. "Sex is great" isn't that much of a big deal to vampires who have a hunger that is enormously greater and quite necessary for their survival. It's quite clearly there to justify the creepy ERP subset of VTM players.

 

[thesheeep]

What an argument.

Well, The Kiss quite clearly replaces the compulsive function of sex that humans have - in fact, it's much more stronger since it is both sex + feeding at the same time. "Sex is great" isn't that much of a big deal to vampires who have a hunger that is enormously greater and quite necessary for their survival. It's quite clearly there to justify the creepy ERP subset of VTM players.

It isn't relevant why it was put there.
That they can enjoy something else even more (which is also more important to them biologically) is equally besides the point.
It is clearly said that vampires can have and enjoy sex and are NOT automatically assumed asexual beings, which was the point. If it is compulsive or not depends on the specific character's personality like any other kind of compulsive behavior.

You can play a character that has zero interest in any sexuality, and you can play one that is horny af, doesn't matter, the rules allow either.
I never made the point that vampires have to be raunchy (though that would make a hilarious session no doubt)

 

[Harthwain]

It isn't relevant why it was put there.
That they can enjoy something else even more (which is also more important to them biologically) is equally besides the point.
It is clearly said that vampires can have and enjoy sex and are NOT automatically assumed asexual beings, which was the point. If it is compulsive or not depends on the specific character's personality like any other kind of compulsive behavior.

It does switch the entire perspective on what a vampire is though. Vampires being "just humans with superpowers", like you put it, is not interesting premise at all.

 

[thesheeep]

It isn't relevant why it was put there.
That they can enjoy something else even more (which is also more important to them biologically) is equally besides the point.
It is clearly said that vampires can have and enjoy sex and are NOT automatically assumed asexual beings, which was the point. If it is compulsive or not depends on the specific character's personality like any other kind of compulsive behavior.

It does switch the entire perspective on what a vampire is though. Vampires being "just humans with superpowers", like you put it, is not interesting premise at all.

But they are.
It's just that these superpowers have serious side effects - which makes for more interesting superhuman type characters anyway.

There's no difference between a vampire and, for example, an imaginary character with almost the exact same powers and flaws, just that it isn't about blood but something else that equally requires humans.
Vampires being "just humans" is exactly what makes it interesting, they are humans that have gained powers, and these powers have side effects posing quite a challenge to "normal" life, morality, etc.

 

[Latro]

It isn't relevant why it was put there.

Yes it is. Any sexual vampire is using it as a put-on to deceive humans or is seriously messed up in the head even for kindred (jeannette).

which makes for more interesting superhuman type characters anyway.

so vampires have regressed into superheroes then? I hate capeshit.

 

[Longes]

What are the chances that this game will turn out alright? Give it to me straight.

Pretty slim, but I'm holding out hope. The big red flags for me are:

• The amount of Bloodlines 1 fanservice they are throwing out. I don't care what lies pour from the developer's serpent tongue - Damsel has never been anyone's favourite character. Damsel would not even be in the top five of anyone's favourite characters.
• Brian Mitsoda's involvement. Mitsoda did fuck all since Bloodlines 1, and he wasn't a lead on Bloodlines 1. But they paraded him like a trophy and "wooo we have a developer from BL1, look how legit we are". They could have gotten a janitor from the old Troika offices for all that I care.
  
• The combat shown in the gameplay demo was ass.
• They have been mum on how the disciplines can be used out of combat.
  
• Developer describing their writing as "filthy" makes me think they are huffing paint at Hardlabs or something.

Can this game still be good? Yes. Is this going to be Disco Elysium level RPG? Absolutely not. Is this going to be as good as Bloodlines 1 was? Ehhh... There's a chance. We still know very little about the game, and all the red flags can end up irrelevant. In either case I already pre-ordered it because I'm a retard with no self-control.

 

[thesheeep]

It isn't relevant why it was put there.

Yes it is. Any sexual vampire is using it as a put-on to deceive humans or is seriously messed up in the head even for kindred (jeannette).

That's how you might want it to be, and you are certainly free to play a character that way in this system, but it simply isn't how it is rule-wise, world-wise or setting-wise. Not in this system and not in this game. Deal with it.
Besides, even a normal human would be pretty messed up if they behaved like Jeanette...

which makes for more interesting superhuman type characters anyway.

so vampires have regressed into superheroes then? I hate capeshit.

Superhuman, not superhero - not that you couldn't combine them, but still. That's just a word for "more powerful than a normal human being".

 

[jackofshadows]

Vampires being "just humans" is exactly what makes it interesting, they are humans that have gained powers, and these powers have side effects posing quite a challenge to "normal" life, morality, etc.

They're no longer a humans. They're fucking monsters, the undead who just looks almost like humans. Humanity scale is what makes them interesting, the whole masquarade idea, execution and different approaches to it. But reading your interpretation I'm starting to think that maybe thinbloods in sequel will be exactly that: basically humans with some kewl vampire super-powers. Bleh.

 

[Latro]

in any case, the idea that vampires rely heavily on very recent LGBTQ shit is silly - unless, they portray the caitiff as clinging on to it as a pathetic attempt at holding on to the last shreds of their humanity; then, it is a good thematic fit.

 

[thesheeep]

in any case, the idea that vampires rely heavily on very recent LGBTQ shit is silly - unless, they portray the caitliff as clinging on to it as a pathetic attempt at holding on to the last shreds of their humanity; then, it is a good thematic fit.

I wouldn't expect them to come up with such a good explanation - more likely it'll just be virtue signalling.
I just really hope it will not be too much preaching for me to enjoy the rest...

 

[Alex]

(...snip)

I especially like the transphobic sticker on it.

 

[Alex]

For the record: I was talking about 1st Edition and got pretty much the same impression as Lambach from reading that rulebook, which explains the difference in perspective when compared to 2nd Edition.

It's not even the 2nd Edition, tho, that one is very similar to the 1st and only some rules were cleaned up and improved (and Sabbat was made into more of a more-or-less proper Sect rather than just generic bad guys you're supposed to shoot and pay no heed to). The "old" WoD ended with the Gehenna books. Then they retconed the whole thing and made Requiem. Then it turns out Requiem sucked balls and wasn't selling, so they retconed the previous retcon and came up with V20.

Then they decided that wasn't garbage enough, so they decided to shoot the setting in the head and piss on its corpse via V5.

Requiem wasn't a retcon, but, like all new world of darkness books, a whole new setting.

 

[Harthwain]

Vampires being "just humans" is exactly what makes it interesting, they are humans that have gained powers, and these powers have side effects posing quite a challenge to "normal" life, morality, etc.

I liked that vampires were essentially different species. An ultimate predator hunting at night for blood in order to survive. An undead who walks among the living, pretending to be one of them. A monster wearing human mask, desperately clinging to his remaining - and wanning - humanity, because he knows it's all that separates him from the beast that lurks within. Yes, he had powers, but these powers come with a terrible price (usually not paid willingly, because it fits the setting even more): loss of life, people he cared about, the world as he knew it, even his very soul. This creates the struggle between meeting the demands of the vampire world, surviving and retaining your humanity. "Humans with superpowers called vampires" just can't compare.

 

[thesheeep]

Vampires being "just humans" is exactly what makes it interesting, they are humans that have gained powers, and these powers have side effects posing quite a challenge to "normal" life, morality, etc.

I liked that vampires were essentially different species. An ultimate predator hunting at night for blood in order to survive. An undead who walks among the living, pretending to be one of them. A monster wearing human mask, desperately clinging to his remaining - and wanning - humanity, because he knows it's all that separates him from the beast that lurks within. Yes, he had powers, but these powers come with a terrible price (usually not paid willingly, because it fits the setting even more): loss of life, people he cared about, the world as he knew it, even his very soul. This creates the struggle between meeting the demands of the vampire world, surviving and retaining your humanity. "Humans with superpowers called vampires" just can't compare.

Almost nothing you wrote is excluded by what I wrote.
It's just a natural conclusion of these specific sets of powers and flaws. I'm just not as emotionally invested in romantic descriptions of the nature of vampires...
As I said, replace all those powers and flaws with similar ones and you'll end up with a different kind of superhuman-being-with-a-struggle. Vampires aren't that special or that different.

Except for the monster part. From the way I've always seen it in the books, they are humans (+powers) trying not to become monsters - not monsters clinging to their humanity or just faking their humanity. The monsters are those that fully gave in to the hunger and then really became something entirely different.
But, honestly, that's mostly just semantics.

 

[Technomancer]

Pretty slim, but I'm holding out hope.

Wow, you sure took your time for your first message. This game must be something to cure muteness like that.

 

[Longes]

Pretty slim, but I'm holding out hope.

Wow, you sure took your time for your first message. This game must be something to cure muteness like that.

Why rush the good things?

 

[Harthwain]

As I said, replace all those powers and flaws with similar ones and you'll end up with a different kind of superhuman-being-with-a-struggle. Vampires aren't that special or that different.

It may seem interchangeable on a technical level ("a different kind of superhuman-being-with-a-struggle"), but this isn't merely technical, because with vampires being vampires comes certain context. It's like to say that everything has flavor, so you can change one flavor for another and it will be no different. This is not going to work, because people are particular about their flavors.

Except for the monster part. From the way I've always seen it in the books, they are humans (+powers) trying not to become monsters - not monsters clinging to their humanity or just faking their humanity. The monsters are those that fully gave in to the hunger and then really became something entirely different.

Vampire is not yet fully a monster, but he isn't human either. He gradually loses his humanity, which means he needs to cling to it and fake it (fake it, because he doesn't need to eat, sleep, drink, have sex, etc.) in order to not turn into a beast and to pass for a human among humans. But he is losing it, slowly but surely. It's the inevitable downward slope. The question is not "if", but "when". Vampires being humans with superpowers undermine that entire aspect of being a vampire.

 

[jungl]

its pretty sad how this setting went from beings that feel nothing but hunger. Have to larp as the living and keep the memories alive of human stuff like love and social norms when its all fading nostalgia in the night sky to them. There is only the beast. To...

YA sweetey MMHMM kindred are sex positive! they are extra aware and respectful when draining sex workers what their pronouns are on the job and off it! The setting went from hmmm fantasy that makes you think to LGBT shit.

 

[Silverfish]

What are the chances that this game will turn out alright? Give it to me straight.

It's going to suck.