World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[True Ukrainian]

Combat in Bloodlines 2 is actually worse because there's no permanent inventory. All your weapons are use and discard.

No matter how much you fear the unknown, this was and remains a good idea for the franchise.

How is that an improvement? Equipment selection is part of a character build.

If equipment is limited in use, then it becomes more valuable as a result and when and how you decide to use it matters a lot more. In contrast, when you have a pistol you buy a cheap ammo for, it doesn't really matter to you how many bullets you will fire. That said, I wouldn't limit pistols to have just a bunch of bullets and then make you discard a weapon - just make ammo VERY expensive, so you have to invest heavily into it and make weapons into actually powerful substitute that doesn't require blood (which should be even more valuable). That would require thinking through blood/weapon/income economy very carefully, but I think the result could be more interesting than the usual fare.

The other way would be to make regular cheap ammo useless against other vampires, which is consistent with lore, and provide upgraded ammo through either the Tremere or Sabbat sources which is highly expensive and also dependent on faction alignment.

 

[Child of Malkav]

Combat in Bloodlines 2 is actually worse because there's no permanent inventory. All your weapons are use and discard.

No matter how much you fear the unknown, this was and remains a good idea for the franchise.

How is that an improvement? Equipment selection is part of a character build.

If equipment is limited in use, then it becomes more valuable as a result and when and how you decide to use it matters a lot more. In contrast, when you have a pistol you buy a cheap ammo for, it doesn't really matter to you how many bullets you will fire. That said, I wouldn't limit pistols to have just a bunch of bullets and then make you discard a weapon - just make ammo VERY expensive, so you have to invest heavily into it and make weapons into actually powerful substitute that doesn't require blood (which should be even more valuable). That would require thinking through blood/weapon/income economy very carefully, but I think the result could be more interesting than the usual fare.

So the Botw design, where every weapon breaks in 2 hits and when you find a really good, damaging weapon you hold on to it for boss fights and I'm the meantime you use what you find or can get. I see the advantages of this system but I don't like it. I much prefer your example with the firearms and bullets being very expensive or in general consumables being very powerful but also very expensive.

 

[Bad Sector]

In contrast, when you have a pistol you buy a cheap ammo for, it doesn't really matter to you how many bullets you will fire. That said, I wouldn't limit pistols to have just a bunch of bullets and then make you discard a weapon - just make ammo VERY expensive, so you have to invest heavily into it and make weapons into actually powerful substitute that doesn't require blood (which should be even more valuable).

That is more or less what VtMB 1 does. VtMB is one of the very few RPGs where i feel money have actual value and isn't trivial to come by.

EDIT: though i do not like the limitation it has where you can't carry more than a single weapon of the same type - sure, it helps with making it harder to gain money since you can't sell all the loot lying around (...though in many cases you can just keep going back and forth between store and an area with dropped items since they often do not despawn... :-P), but this can be solved by selling items at a very low price or not having stores with infinite money.

 

[santino27]

Combat in Bloodlines 2 is actually worse because there's no permanent inventory. All your weapons are use and discard.

No matter how much you fear the unknown, this was and remains a good idea for the franchise.

How is that an improvement? Equipment selection is part of a character build.

If equipment is limited in use, then it becomes more valuable as a result and when and how you decide to use it matters a lot more. In contrast, when you have a pistol you buy a cheap ammo for, it doesn't really matter to you how many bullets you will fire. That said, I wouldn't limit pistols to have just a bunch of bullets and then make you discard a weapon - just make ammo VERY expensive, so you have to invest heavily into it and make weapons into actually powerful substitute that doesn't require blood (which should be even more valuable). That would require thinking through blood/weapon/income economy very carefully, but I think the result could be more interesting than the usual fare.

Ammo as a resource is fine. Throwing away your weapons because 'whee, vampire' is just dumb and felt very much like a design decision to solve some other problem and then packaged and sold to players as a 'good thing.'

 

[Child of Malkav]

That is more or less what VtMB 1 does. VtMB is one of the very few RPGs where i feel money have actual value and isn't trivial to come by.

It was the opposite for me. If you did everything, explored, sold what you didn't use etc. you had plenty of money. Not to mention the chick that gives you money every night from that club after you rid her of the Mafia boss. I don't remember a single time where I had issues with money. And besides, I only use firearms at the end of the game when you fight Andrei in the hotel, Ming Xiao and the Sheriff. Until then, melee, stealth and disciplines. Or just ghost through. Or talk my way through.
Edit 1: forgot to mention the various bonuses you can get for sidequests given by LaCroix and when you talk to him to give you extra cash.

 

[Bad Sector]

And besides, I only use firearms at the end of the game when you fight Andrei in the hotel, Ming Xiao and the Sheriff. Until then, melee, stealth and disciplines. Or just ghost through. Or talk my way through.

Yeah if you do a melee playthrough it is easier to have money (not just in VtMB - in general i often do melee oriented characters because other builds in games tend to require various resources for attacks -bullets, mana, whatever- and i'm a hoarder :-P). In the playthrough i just finished however i focused on ranged weapons, so i needed bullets and new weapons. There were a few cases where i couldn't buy some stuff (including at the end where i couldn't buy blood bags...).

 

[Harthwain]

Ammo as a resource is fine. Throwing away your weapons because 'whee, vampire' is just dumb and felt very much like a design decision to solve some other problem and then packaged and sold to players as a 'good thing.'

True. That's why I said I wouldn't make the player throw away the weapon, just make it inert once the ammo is spent (unless you really want to throw it, although I can't imagine that doing much considering the setting). But I am a big fan of the idea of making actions more valuable by introducing a limited resource of some kind (or a few of them). Not enough games do that, and there are a plenty of settings where this would make a great deal of sense too. Bloodlines being the perfect example here.

 

[Storyfag]

Instant gratification without planning for long term. Suits the current generation.

More like the dev didn't want to set up the in game economy, since a permanent inventory means players shopping for weapons and anmo. And that also means balancing the game around when those weapons can be accessed.

The devs should be thrown into a szlachta pit, then.

 

[Storyfag]

The new Sabbat book only allows for Sabbat NPCs.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Instant gratification without planning for long term. Suits the current generation.

More like the dev didn't want to set up the in game economy, since a permanent inventory means players shopping for weapons and anmo. And that also means balancing the game around when those weapons can be accessed.

The devs should be thrown into a szlachta pit, then.

What did the szlachta do to you anyway?

 

[Storyfag]

Instant gratification without planning for long term. Suits the current generation.

More like the dev didn't want to set up the in game economy, since a permanent inventory means players shopping for weapons and anmo. And that also means balancing the game around when those weapons can be accessed.

The devs should be thrown into a szlachta pit, then.

What did the szlachta do to you anyway?

They are minions! Their purpose is to suffer for their master!

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Okay Sandro

 

[Rahdulan]

The new Sabbat book only allows for Sabbat NPCs.

Sabbat book for V5 was always going to be interesting because it would have to answer a particular conundrum: how would SJW writers handle playable evil characters without overtly humanizing them for sympathy points as it would invalidate the core concept? Surprisingly enough the answer based on the "preview" was not some variety of mental gymnastics you may have expected, but rather to include new Disciplines and new fluff while leaving out what makes Sabbat vampires different from Cammy and Anarch ones totally up to the players to figure out. Which is comical if they want to target a new audience that doesn't know anything beyond V5 books.

 

[Harthwain]

Sabbat book for V5 was always going to be interesting because it would have to answer a particular conundrum: how would SJW writers handle playable evil characters without overtly humanizing them for sympathy points as it would invalidate the core concept?

Why would you want or need to "humanize" Sabbat? A plenty of people like to play as "evil guys", because it's a good excuse to do whatever you want/sounds cool. The bare minimum you need is to not become the Beast, besides that anything could go. Unless you want to go for a twist where Sabbat isn't nearly as bad as the Camarilla would like you to believe it is (which would make sense).

 

[True Ukrainian]

Sabbat book for V5 was always going to be interesting because it would have to answer a particular conundrum: how would SJW writers handle playable evil characters without overtly humanizing them for sympathy points as it would invalidate the core concept?

Why would you want or need to "humanize" Sabbat? A plenty of people like to play as "evil guys", because it's a good excuse to do whatever you want/sounds cool. The bare minimum you need is to not become the Beast, besides that anything could go. Unless you want to go for a twist where Sabbat isn't nearly as bad as the Camarilla would like you to believe it is (which would make sense).

Because humainzing the Sabbat is the only way they could remain a viable organization living in human society. If they were rabid killers the Second Inquisition would have wiped them out completely. The Sabbat needs to be able to function at a minimal human level to be a believable group.

 

[Zombra]

Combat in Bloodlines 2 is actually worse because there's no permanent inventory. All your weapons are use and discard.

No matter how much you fear the unknown, this was and remains a good idea for the franchise.

How is that an improvement? Equipment selection is part of a character build.

When you can fly, turn invisible, and make people's hearts explode by pointing your finger at them, your life is not about keeping track of how much ammunition you have for your .38. The game shouldn't be about that either.

 

[Harthwain]

Because humainzing the Sabbat is the only way they could remain a viable organization living in human society. If they were rabid killers the Second Inquisition would have wiped them out completely. The Sabbat needs to be able to function at a minimal human level to be a believable group.

True enough, but wouldn't it make phasing out the Sabbat a sensible decision then? It would also lend some credibilty as to why some humans do know about vampires (I forgot which edition made that change), while the general public still remains oblivious to them (meaning there is no all-out war in the open between humans and vampires). I say that, because I don't feel like having the Sabbat in play is valuable enough on its own. If you really need "monsters", then having renegade vampires out there (acting in Sabbat-like style) would suit this purpose as well.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

your life is not about keeping track of how much ammunition you have for your .38

Counting bullets is basic arithmetic dude.

When you can fly, turn invisible, and make people's hearts explode by pointing your finger at them

Correct me if I am wrong, but there's still a Masquerade to uphold, yes? Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

 

[True Ukrainian]

Because humainzing the Sabbat is the only way they could remain a viable organization living in human society. If they were rabid killers the Second Inquisition would have wiped them out completely. The Sabbat needs to be able to function at a minimal human level to be a believable group.

True enough, but wouldn't it make phasing out the Sabbat a sensible decision then? It would also lend some credibilty as to why some humans do know about vampires (I forgot which edition made that change), while the general public still remains oblivious to them (meaning there is no all-out war in the open between humans and vampires). I say that, because I don't feel like having the Sabbat in play is valuable enough on its own. If you really need "monsters", then having renegade vampires out there (acting in Sabbat-like style) would suit this purpose as well.

Sabbat could probably viably operate in places with poor law enforcement like South America or Iraq, where the general atmosphere of brutality could help hide the group's antics. If you really want to go woke, you could even write that brutality in the slums of kwa is both encouraged by the Sabbat and Sabbat sympathizers in the police and government. So the Sabbat would still be unknown to the general population, but people in the know would be fully aware of them. This way you have a ready made, fairly believable enemy that has the excuse to operate in plain sight.

 

[Larianshill]

I once played on a Vampire FRPG, where Sabbath players carried out a massive, public attack on an international airport in a first world country. They've killed more than a hundred people, flashing their disciplines left and right, and got caught on film using their magic powers. Somehow, the NPCs of the town's Camarilla "covered it all up" in a single night, and the Masquerade remained without a crack in it.

 

[True Ukrainian]

I once played on a Vampire FRPG, where Sabbath players carried out a massive, public attack on an international airport in a first world country. They've killed more than a hundred people, flashing their disciplines left and right, and got caught on film using their magic powers. Somehow, the NPCs of the town's Camarilla "covered it all up" in a single night, and the Masquerade remained without a crack in it.

That's just silly. The whole point of the masquerade is to prevent players from becoming too OP. You can't flash disciplines left and right and without the hammer falling hard on you. If I was the GM I would have set up a human paramilitary response hunting your party down throughout the rest of the campaign.

 

[Storyfag]

I once played on a Vampire FRPG, where Sabbath players carried out a massive, public attack on an international airport in a first world country. They've killed more than a hundred people, flashing their disciplines left and right, and got caught on film using their magic powers. Somehow, the NPCs of the town's Camarilla "covered it all up" in a single night, and the Masquerade remained without a crack in it.

That's just silly. The whole point of the masquerade is to prevent players from becoming too OP. You can't flash disciplines left and right and without the hammer falling hard on you. If I was the GM I would have set up a human paramilitary response hunting your party down throughout the rest of the campaign.

Yeah, a breach like that is inviting an angry Archon to the city in question.

 

[Wesp5]

Ammo as a resource is fine. Throwing away your weapons because 'whee, vampire' is just dumb and felt very much like a design decision to solve some other problem and then packaged and sold to players as a 'good thing.'

True. That's why I said I wouldn't make the player throw away the weapon, just make it inert once the ammo is spent (unless you really want to throw it, although I can't imagine that doing much considering the setting).

I agree and this was basically the first thing I discussed with Florian when I still had contact to the BL2 team. Interesting enough right now Paradox has Bloodhunt in early alpha, which is a battle royale game with player most of the time using firearms! As for Bloodlines, I played a gun man myself so ammo and money was sparse as it should be. Compared to that e. g. in Cyberpunk I have half a million credits with lots of expensive implants and weapons bought and I basically always have all ammo types maxed out in a gun man run. It's fun, but no management needed at all!

 

[Wunderbar]

Was this posted here before? Rik Schaffer released 21 unused VTMB tracks.

 

[Demo.Graph]

Having limited ammo in modern-day US setting is unintuitive and lazy. Should modern vampire lack money for ammo, he'd just break in a weapon store and take everything he needs.
If devs really wanted to gimp sharpshooters and force monsters of the night count bullet pennies, they could've introduced unobtanium ammunition ("silver bullets"). That could've dealt damage to bosses and special enemies and could only be bought via limited golden shekels from some super secret vendor. This way everyday dollars and ammo would've been plentiful but niche resource and resource hoarders as well as resource managers would've been equally satisfied.