World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[The President]

I do agree to an extent that lore is a bit overrated but it does give a decent scope to build on. You are however not going to get a good product without a good writer and a narrative that stays consistent. Good lore will fail with a bad writer, but a good writer will succeed even with bad lore. I do think however if you get good lore and a good writer, you can make some magic.

I completely agree! But speaking of lore, I recently saw a video of the HSL BL2 demo in which the Tremere uses some kind of blood spikes appearing from the ground to kill distant enemies. Is this part of the V5 lore? Because compared to the original Thaumaturgy disciplines, which either manipulate the blood of the victim or use a littel bit of the Tremere blood, this makes no sense at all!

I know the discipline itself has been combined with others for the new discipline called "Blood Sorcery" but other than that I don't know too much in depth about the mechanics of V5. I did get the impression though it was like 5e for DnD, a simplified system that's a little more accessible to new players.

As for Caine being the cabbie, I thought it was pretty well done. You know he's there if you pay attention but his overall motives aren't really discussed. As for why he doesn't go on a rampage and try to lead directly, I do believe he tried that already in the ancient past and it was a disaster. At least he isn't going about it like some typical modern American helicopter parent. If you think about it the vampire society of the setting really only exist because he chooses to let it. Why he does so is up to personal interpretation, you don't really need everything answered.

I've always been more of a DnD guy myself and while I do like much of it, I'd be lying to you if I said a lot of the books and other related materials weren't garbage. However the setting is pretty good and there's lots of material to work with if you want to be creative. I feel like WoD is the same, I think there's a ton of great stories to tell from the material if you have a good story teller. The two games that really exposed me to the setting was Wake of the Ravager and the original Baldur's Gate.

I know they're different games but I would compare the original BG to Bloodlines. Neither are the greatest games mechanically or visually but they are both memorable and introduce just enough of the setting's lore and features to keep you interested. You really do get the feel that there's a much larger world out there in the games and you get to experience a little bit here and a little there. Both games IMO were huge boons to their respective IP's. BG's influence alone cannot be understated.

 

[jungl]

How do you write WoD today? When the CBB big fat cow bodytype laquisha the former dollar store clerk turned fledgling tells her sire "okey dokey boomer BOOMER". Or when Dominick the former professional wrestler calls all the female vampires he meets mamis? https://youtu.be/cMKRfRonmlQ?t=22

Somethings from the 90s simply do not mesh well with today. They belong in the bookshelf next to goosebumps and vampire chronicles as relics of their time collecting dust.

 

[Delterius]

thats a weird reading of the story

A weirder one would be that a god-figure like Caine is interested in what an insect like our Fledgling PC thinks about Vampire society. That's like you asking your hamster to give you his perspective on your electoral process and political parties.

If Caine is interested in vampire society then Caine is interested in his children. He threw the sarcophagus into the middle of LA and watched how everyone reacted. The experienced, the rebellious, the scholarly, even the alien. That includes the neonate. The final conversation with the cabbie is wether about you can rise above it all or fail miserably, with everybody else.

 

[Lambach]

If Caine is interested in vampire society then Caine is interested in his children. He threw the sarcophagus into the middle of LA and watched how everyone reacted. The experienced, the rebellious, the scholarly, even the alien. That includes the neonate. It's really that simple.

But isn't it canon that he is not interested in his children at best or considers them a grave mistake at worst? 3rd Gen was created against Caine's wishes and he even regreted Embracing the 2nd Gen too.

 

[Harthwain]

Somethings from the 90s simply do not mesh well with today. They belong in the bookshelf next to goosebumps and vampire chronicles as relics of their time collecting dust.

Dracula is Victorian/Gothic. Redemption starts in medieval times and ends in year 2000. You can make "something from the 90s" and it will be self-contained well enough as such. At this point it's history, meaning you don't have to deal with "today" or whatever the Current Year is. The only question is how catchy this would be for the mainstream.

 

[Delterius]

But isn't it canon

Pretty sure the storyteller trumps meta-plot canon, no?

 

[leino]

That's the problem with trying to insert these god-like characters like Caine into the story - how are you supposed to know what a 6000-year-old being with superhuman, alien intellect would behave like?

It's one of those situations where leaving it open to interpretation is better than providing an answer (hence it worked in the game's favor that White Wolf didn't allow the devs to have the game's story confirm the cabbie as actually being Caine). Might be Caine, might be a Malkavian thinking that he's Caine or he might just be some random vamp like any other that has nothing to do with Caine who just happened to tag along for Jack's independent trolling of the city's vamp denizens with the whole sarcophagus fiasco.

Agreed, I think White Wolf had a point because the idea of Caine, the ultimate figure (if he even exists) behind the ever deepening circles of bigger and bigger jerks that constitute VtM, being there for your little story makes the world of darkness seem just a bit smaller. Getting manipulated by some weird lunatic metuselah meddling in LA is already more than spooky enough a twist.
But you can interpret it whichever way, or just accept it as a mystery.

 

[Lambach]

Pretty sure the storyteller trumps meta-plot canon, no?

I mean sure, there's no Lore-Police that's going to arrest you if you deviate from it, but we're talking about what makes more sense within the context of established "official" canon.

 

[Delterius]

Pretty sure the storyteller trumps meta-plot canon, no?

I mean sure, there's no Lore-Police that's going to arrest you if you deviate from it, but we're talking about what makes more sense within the context of established "official" canon.

I dunno about 'estabilished official canon' but apparently at some point Caine was supposed to be chilling sealed away in a cave somewhere?

The way I see it Bloodlines isn't that different from any group of people actually playing pnp WoD and telling stories, using the canon as they so desire. Cherrypicking for what actually serves that story is a hallmark of the medium. As far as I care the in-world mythos claims that Caine will one day return to judge vampirekind. It just seems that whatever happened in Bloodlines is a small fragment of that.

Or maybe the white wolf version of 'caine' being a delusional vampire with jerusalem syndrome is real. And if a god wants to play cabbie for a week then I don't think anyone can stop them. Whatever floats people's boats. Now, me personally I think Caine is on a level that is so far beyond the other would be demigods of vampirekind that he doesn't really give a shit. He's been there done that in every sense of the word. I would be disappointed if he acted like some sort of tzimisce tryhard.

 

[The President]

You also have to keep in mind there's a little bit more leeway in ttrpg settings and canon than say a novel series. George R.R. Martin at least from what I understand, pretty much wrote all of the books in his series and all the supplemental material. I think I was in Costco recently with my family and I saw an entire book with intricate details on the entire history of the Targaryen dynasty. It all comes from one source who's pretty good in keeping canon. These settings have had tons of writers and editions over the last three decades. A few shifts and contradictions here and there are inevitable and will work if the writers are good and don't stretch the setting too far. I.E. if Bloodlines for examples came right out and said Caine was bullshit and generation was a lie, then that may be a stretching it a bit too far.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

White Wolf's heyday was late 90s/early 2000s. By the time Bloodline was out it was already diving into the dumpster if we look at it in retrospective.

The heyday was really in the early 90s. The ttrpg market as a whole started declining in mid-late 90s due to competition from video games and collectible card games. WoD’s popularity at the time (at one point it was second only to D&D) was due a variety of external market factors and social factors that no longer exist.

The problem of writing godlike characters is that they're so utterly alien that nobody really knows how to write one.

This is why they either do weird ass shit like drive cabs, are actually insane, or are just minding their own business.

Immortal beings that can easily change the fabric of reality tend not to be chessmasters, because if they are, they've likely already achieved their goals a long, long time ago.

They work as these abstract threats you’re trying to prevent so and so cult from summoning, but they don’t work as actual characters. TV god characters like Glorificus, Illyria or Amaru only really worked because they were fish out of water who were either trying to adapt to their new circumstances or trying to cause the apocalypse to restore their power. By contrast, the gods in those 90s adventure shows like Xena or Beastmaster were hilariously campy, petty and incompetent. Supernatural gave up trying and used god cameos as canon fodder.

WoD’s reliance on all these godlike superbeings running around doing the most ridiculous shit for no apparent reasons is not the “amazing lore” that people seem to think it is.

Pretty sure the storyteller trumps meta-plot canon, no?

I mean sure, there's no Lore-Police that's going to arrest you if you deviate from it, but we're talking about what makes more sense within the context of established "official" canon.

The fandom is full of self-styled lore police that tell you your homebrews and actual plays are badwrongfun for defying canon.

Pretty sure the storyteller trumps meta-plot canon, no?

I mean sure, there's no Lore-Police that's going to arrest you if you deviate from it, but we're talking about what makes more sense within the context of established "official" canon.

I dunno about 'estabilished official canon' but apparently at some point Caine was supposed to be chilling sealed away in a cave somewhere?

The way I see it Bloodlines isn't that different from any group of people actually playing pnp WoD and telling interesting stories, using the canon as they so desires. Cherrypicking from what actually serves the story is a hallmark of the medium. As far as I care the in-world mythos claims that Caine will one day return to judge vampirekind. And whatever happened in Bloodlines is a small fragment of that.

Yeah. The lorefags have steadily driven those people away. The text games failed because the writers are lorefags more interested in advertising their credentials to other lorefags than actually telling good stories. Aside from Bloodlines and maybe Redemption, can anyone name interesting stories that use this lore? For that matter, what really distinguishes the IP from generic faire like Vampire Chronicles or True Blood?

 

[Lagole Gon]

Oh shit.

I forgot it was a thing.

Is it dead?

 

[Lambach]

The way I see it Bloodlines isn't that different from any group of people actually playing pnp WoD and telling stories, using the canon as they so desire

Sure, but I don't have to like that story. Or rather, that one detail in particular.

Now, me personally I think Caine is on a level that is so far beyond the other would be demigods of vampirekind that he doesn't really give a shit. He's been there done that in every sense of the word.

Which is precisely why I don't think it makes sense for him to act so.... human. Or show any interest in a bunch of retarded toddlers running around and playing at politics, even if they are his (very distant) kin.

Vampires grow increasingly more alien and deranged as they age (and not just the Malks), so the eldest one of them all being just this chill dude driving a cab around feels very wrong.

 

[Delterius]

Which is precisely why I don't think it makes sense for him to act so.... human.

On the contrary, if he acted super alien I'd think he was having a middle aged crisis and reverted to tzimisce try hard mode. That's where we should agree to disagree.

 

[Harthwain]

Oh shit.

I forgot it was a thing.

Is it dead?

It is both dead and alive, as long as the box remains sealed.

 

[Lambach]

WoD’s reliance on all these godlike superbeings running around doing the most ridiculous shit for no apparent reasons is not the “amazing lore” that people seem to think it is.

Well yeah, that's when it all started going to shit. These ancient puppet-masters that used to be just myths and background forces subtly pushing events into motion suddenly got names, defined Stats, Attributes, Discipline levels etc. and got more directly involved into everything and it all turned out to be an incoherent mess. Here you have a character who is orders of magnitude more intelligent and perceptive than any human being who ever lived making typical double-digit IQ mistakes that get him killed in the most contrived way possible, despite having a mastery over Fortitude that should allow him to shrug off a bazooka blast to the face.

 

[Delterius]

Yeah. The lorefags have steadily driven those people away. The text games failed because the writers are lorefags more interested in advertising their credentials to other lorefags than actually telling good stories. Aside from Bloodlines and maybe Redemption, can anyone name interesting stories that use this lore? For that matter, what really distinguishes the IP from generic faire like Vampire Chronicles or True Blood?

Bloodlines 2 could still happen, and I guess media stuff like those 'by Night' larps can cultivate fandoms more oriented towards the actual experience of playing WoD. Or at least of watching people play a campaign set in WoD. Well, the question I have is wether lore-wanking is what drove people away, or if its the lack of people that gives the lore-wankers a disproportionate voice.

I really do think WoD is at its very worst when anyone gives any shit about what the godlike beings are doing. 'Oh no ravnos woke up and it took 100 buddah saints and several orbital nukes to bring him down'. Bro that's retarded as fuck. It's Golarion levels of 'pretend this shit isn't part of the setting'. Because otherwise you might as well watch Dragon Ball Z.

You know what's the coolest thing? Looking for a snuff film that breaches the masquerade in some seedy casette store and the guy on the counter telling you that's way too real for him and to go away. That's what peak WoD should be.

 

[Lambach]

I really do think WoD is at its very worst when anyone gives any shit about what the godlike beings are doing.

Which is why I'm against including them directly into any stories and why I dislike the Cabbie Caine.

 

[wishbonetail]

Here's the big question. Did Caine drive taxi to troll fledgling or that was like his... fulltime job or something?

 

[The President]

Bloodlines 2, The Schrodinger's Cat of modern video games.

Yeah. The lorefags have steadily driven those people away. The text games failed because the writers are lorefags more interested in advertising their credentials to other lorefags than actually telling good stories. Aside from Bloodlines and maybe Redemption, can anyone name interesting stories that use this lore? For that matter, what really distinguishes the IP from generic faire like Vampire Chronicles or True Blood?

I do get what you're saying, but ultimately the other way to look at this is the two big games in this series done by people who gave a shit were actually pretty memorable and good.

You seem a little bit too concerned with the alleged lorefags. I've never had the opportunity to work on any games in this series, but if I was I could give a fucking shit what people on twitter or hardcore people say. I'll always hear people out but I do believe I'm good at shifting between the good points and bullshit.

And who cares if TTRPG's heyday was 20 to 30 years ago, games and media evolve like everything else. DnD for instance has spawned tons of games and different kinds of media. The TT portion just becomes a baseline for the numbers systems and features as a part of a bigger whole.

 

[Spukrian]

Wrong game, you should look for Deus Ex: Invisible War.

 

[Delterius]

Here's the big question. Did Caine drive taxi to troll fledgling or that was like his... fulltime job or something?

the greater mystery is who paid those fares

was it lacroix or was it one of the fae? because i certainly didn't

 

[Storyfag]

That's the problem with trying to insert these god-like characters like Caine into the story - how are you supposed to know what a 6000-year-old being with superhuman, alien intellect would behave like?

It's one of those situations where leaving it open to interpretation is better than providing an answer (hence it worked in the game's favor that White Wolf didn't allow the devs to have the game's story confirm the cabbie as actually being Caine). Might be Caine, might be a Malkavian thinking that he's Caine or he might just be some random vamp like any other that has nothing to do with Caine who just happened to tag along for Jack's independent trolling of the city's vamp denizens with the whole sarcophagus fiasco.

Agreed, I think White Wolf had a point because the idea of Caine, the ultimate figure behind the ever deepening circles of bigger and bigger jerks that constitute VtM, being there for your little story makes the world of darkness seem just a bit smaller. Getting manipulated by some weird lunatic metuselah meddling in LA is already more than spooky enough a twist.
But you can interpret it whichever way, or just accept it as a mystery.

Considering the wider World of Darkness, the Cabbie being just a Methuselah is better, naturally.

Considering the game on it's own merits, the Cabbie being Caine is better, naturally.

 

[Storyfag]

Oh shit.

I forgot it was a thing.

Is it dead?

"Clinically? Yes."

 

[Storyfag]

Oh shit.

I forgot it was a thing.

Is it dead?

It is both dead and alive, as long as the box remains sealed.

Don't open it!