World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Lambach]

I'm only really here for news on BL2

What are you doing in this thread then?

 

[Roguey]

The story provides an explanation, it just doesn't spell it out.

No it doesn't. The reasons behind the PCs spikes in power are never directly confirmed by anything in the game. "Cabbie Caine is empowering you" is the most commonly accepted and plausible theory, but it's just that - a theory.

Off-screen Diablerie could also fit, for example.

You're the MacGuffin Man's pawn. The emails say it. Andrei says it.

 

[Delterius]

Seems to me that a good storyteller should be able to write a good story without defying established lore, regardless of whether that lore is good or not.

Especially when the game is dealing with small-scale, personal stories.

Kindly forgive me if someone already said this but I skimmed a lot of stuff as I'm only really here for news on BL2

I think a good storyteller is free to disregard the lore. Especially in a pnp environment. Nobody wants their world to be ruled by meta, or for a player to be able to use that meta, or for things to get stale. What they shouldn't do is go too far and undercut the believability that this is a shared setting. Or, rather, they shouldn't do that without making sure the players are on the same footing.

 

[PulsatingBrain]

I don't really see a good reason for a video game story to have to defy existing lore.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

The IP is firmly tied into a zeitgeist that no longer exists and doesn’t really appeal to new audiences. It’s attempts to “evolve” have so far gone very poorly. CoD was hated by lorefags for trying to be more playable and accessible, then cancelled by Paradox only for the 5e books to copy ideas from CoD and get hated for it. (H5 is basically Hunter: The Vigil except with a giant middle finger aimed at Vigil fans. “Oh you, actually liked the orgs? Fuck you, they’re all evil! Fuck you for liking CoD you filthy heretic!”)

I’m not gonna say CoD didn’t have its problems (pretty much everything after Lost and Vigil suck ass imo), but unlike WoD it actually seemed to cater to the small scale experiences that posters in this thread claim to want. I would suggest CoD be adapted for video games instead of WoD if I thought anybody alive would take that suggestion seriously.

Don't take this as an insult but it sounds like to me you're the one whining about the lore more than anyone else. You claim it's stuck in some era, but you seem firmly entrenched on the team that wants it to stay there and every variation is an assault on the sanctity of the lore, which strangely you also claim on the flipside at it's core is shit. Logically I'm asking myself if the lore is just bad and worthless why in your opinion would adapting CoD or WoD make any real difference? If I was making a game directly aimed at you, I'd have to point blank ask you what the fuck it is exactly you want.

The point being is if Bloodlines 2 was made and at least decently based in the world or universe of the WoD (you know like the first game was) and it was a hit and well received, nothing else you've said is really all that relevant. Would you then be complaining about the lore you claim you don't care about?

No, I think you’re being pretty polite. Sorry if I come across as rude and condescending myself.

I don’t expect anyone will make a good video game with this IP, so I don’t have to contrive an answer or imagine a world where I would enjoy BL2 despite my misgivings. The only reason I care is because there aren’t any other urban fantasy video games comparable with Bloodlines to occupy my interest instead.

 

[Zeriel]

I mean the cabbie is just Caine in the game files. As far as we are concerned they are just a vampire who's above it all, so above in fact that they are both in the background and behind everything that happened. All we know about them is that they are interested to see how a microcosm of the modern nights reacts to the promise of absolute power.

Short answer is that everyone failed. The Camarilla's doctrine did not prevent the prince from angling for that power, the Sabbat was too weak to defeat the Camarilla, and the Anarchs were too disunited to play at all. Each faction failed at their own premise. Even Jack, the red herring, ends up being caught up in his own politics. The only reason you had a conversation with the cabbie is because you were resourceful enough to insert yourself in the plot. Or because you were chosen as a tool from the start. Or both. Maybe you were just a licker at first, but then you succeed in serving LaCroix in Santa Monica and the warehouse, so you become an useful foil to all the experienced vampire lords of Los Angeles.

The only in-game reason why the cabbie would be Caine is the assumption that the PC's generation is out of whack or, rather, that they somehow became of higher generation in-between attempting to dominate Therese, being dominated by LaCroix, and then resisting LaCroix's final domination. But given that this is a story and character driven world we have tons of leeway to work here. It doesn't take Caine to empower the PC. It could have been some other would be god lower than Caine. And it doesn't take the PC to have been empowered - they could always have been of a lower gen, coming into their own over their ordeal. Or maybe the storyteller decided this isn't a generation thing, and the PC was of lower willpower before. Hell, the number of bloodpoints we have is more likely to be a concession to gameplay than an all important plot point.

C'mon, Ravnos doing his crazy shit and the Technocracy busting his arse (and then making their damned best to make everyone memory hole it) is just a guilty pleasure.

I don't know man, it's probably just me but it's hard to care about a world when power levels get that far. Plus, it could be that warhammer fantasy made me wary of stories where the writers go 'hey our world is set in a supposed near apocalypse, lets end it finally'. I rather like the gehenna in the modern interpretation. It solves both the power curve and the apocalypse issue.

For me my soft spot for the Ravnos bit is not the endtimes--that sucks, and I'd prefer to just pretend it doesn't happen, or come up with your own version of it, where it can be as cool and not-retarded as you like. It's just that before Ravnos, what are antediluvians exactly? Not entirely true, but you get a lot of suggestions that they're not that big of a deal, with Anarchs thinking they've killed antediluvians when they off some random elder, etc. And especially with the Ravnos clan, it provides some context to their true potential. Otherwise it's just... "Oh I can make things look pretty."

Ravnos is a demonstration of the antediluvians real power and scale, rather than them just being incrementally tougher elders. It's a riposte to the cross-over attitude of "oh vampires are weak compared to werewolves" or "Mages completely outclass vampires" etc, it's a reminder that the oldest vampires really are biblical horrors that you should want to keep sleeping at all costs.

And in the new version of Gehenna you're free to rewind to before the Week of Nightmares and say it doesn't play out that way. Personally I think the stupid part of Ravnos is not him existing and doing what he does, but having him taken out by kuei-jin elders & orbital sun-mirrors. If Ravnos just appeared, his entire clan went through Chimerstry spasms for the week of nightmares, and he gobbled up almost every vampire in the Indus, and then disappeared again after the week of nightmares, that'd be a hell of a lot more horrifying.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

You know what's the coolest thing? Looking for a snuff film that breaches the masquerade in some seedy casette store and the guy on the counter telling you that's way too real for him and to go away. That's what peak WoD should be.

doesn't this happen in bloodlines?

Off-screen Diablerie

off-screen? "press e and something banned happens".

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I rather like the gehenna in the modern interpretation. It solves both the power curve and the apocalypse issue.

I haven't personally read too much on V5 stuff since I dislike what they've done to the sects and the changes that they've made to the clans (primarily the hodgepodge that is Hecate, as well as the splitting of Tremere although I can understand why someone might prefer the latter change), but - unless I'm missing something important - Gehenna means jackshit in the modern interpretation since they've heavily minimized the Abrahamic mythos backstory of the vamps which makes the whole mystery of what's going on with the Beckoning and the Gehenna Crusade unappealing.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I rather like the gehenna in the modern interpretation. It solves both the power curve and the apocalypse issue.

I haven't personally read too much on V5 stuff since I dislike what they've done to the sects and the changes that they've made to the clans (primarily the hodgepodge that is Hecate, as well as the splitting of Tremere although I can understand why someone might prefer the latter change), but - unless I'm missing something important - Gehenna means jackshit in the modern interpretation since they've heavily minimized the Abrahamic mythos backstory of the vamps which makes the whole mystery of what's going on with the Beckoning and the Gehenna Crusade unappealing.

It’s some pretty crazy cognitive dissonance and appeal to tradition fallacy shit. The tabletop fandom and the writers room has always been full of wokies who vehemently despise Christianity but at the same time refuse to question or excise the Christian-inspired creation myth. Back in 2e before they retconned Kijin into existence the Asian vampires followed the same vampirism rules as Western ones but their creation myths involved characters from Asian myths. The Japanese vampires claimed descent from Susano-o and said the sunlight curse stemmed from him earning Amaterasu’s eternal enmity. Kindred of the Ebony Kingdom did something similar. I assume, at the time, this was supposed to suggest that the Christian-inspired creation myth wasn’t accurate.

 

[Delterius]

I assume, at the time, this was supposed to suggest that the Christian-inspired creation myth wasn’t accurate.

you do know demon the fallen exists right

if you were to point to a place where the ambient atheism of modern people keeps the writers from doing a straightforward 'christian mythos' fantasy setting, then you have to look at stuff relating to true faith. the whole ridiculous 'actually a libertarian can use a credit card as a holy relic because of course they can'. but at the end of the day god is real in wod and caine was cursed by god.

 

[J1M]

How do you write WoD today? When the CBB big fat cow bodytype laquisha the former dollar store clerk turned fledgling tells her sire "okey dokey boomer BOOMER". Or when Dominick the former professional wrestler calls all the female vampires he meets mamis? https://youtu.be/cMKRfRonmlQ?t=22

Somethings from the 90s simply do not mesh well with today. They belong in the bookshelf next to goosebumps and vampire chronicles as relics of their time collecting dust.

There are several reasons that I've advocated as treating WoD games as 90s period pieces.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I assume, at the time, this was supposed to suggest that the Christian-inspired creation myth wasn’t accurate.

you do know demon the fallen exists right

if you were to point to a place where the ambient atheism of modern people keeps the writers from doing a straightforward 'christian mythos' fantasy setting, then you have to look at stuff relating to true faith. the whole ridiculous 'actually a libertarian can use a credit card as a holy relic because of course they can'. but at the end of the day god is real in wod and caine was cursed by god.

The books I’m referring to (A World of Darkness 1e and 2e, Dark Alliance: Vancouver) were published before DtF by several years. Also DtF is contradicted by most of the other games. WtA has its triat, MtA has consensus reality, WtO has only pagan underworld kingdoms, CtD has only pagan fairies, and Mummy is based on Ancient Egyptian mythology. One of the Time of Judgment books outright states these games take place in a multiverse with occasional crossovers that the characters don’t notice.

ToJ has a fiction snippet from Lucifer’s perspective where says God ordered him to rebel, while the last scenario in Gehenna has an alternate ending where God laughs evilly after the apocalypse ends, civilization begins anew, and the PCs become the new ancestors of the following population of vampires. That’s not the Christian God, that’s the Gnostic Yaldabaoth.

The only reason these writers don’t jettison the Christian roots is because of the arbitrary inconsistent lore worship found throughout this fandom. I quite frankly find the lack of commitment ridiculous and insulting. Either make a Christian mythos or don’t. Don’t pull this wishy washy bullshit because you inconsistently worship the lore as holy writ except for all those times you arbitrarily retcon it.

I haven’t been this pissed off by these wishy washy writers since I read Mage the Awakening’s shitty manual of the planes book and these writers smugly huffed their own farts and talked about how amazing they were for writing so obtusely and noncommittal. Teasing the Arcadia connection was cute in the rulebook, but after a dozen more books kept teasing without anything substantial I wanted to punch them in the face. Make two adventures paths, one for each option, like the VII book (which to this to day I maintain is one of the best books they wrote and should’ve been how they wrote everything). It’s that fucking simple. This wishy washy bullshit is single-handedly why I think the supernal realms are stupid bullshit that should’ve never been written. But I digress.

Whether you’re writing a canon or a toolkit, you still have to write something substantial. This IP has consistently hired writers that suck at both. If you want me to stop being critical of the entire concept of lore outside of Arda, then writers should stop being so incompetent. This shit is why I now write lines like “it’s so common for vampires to claim descent from Dracula that it’s considered a joke rather than a serious statement” or “Vampires constantly lie about history, which frustrates actual historians. In one infamous incident, about a dozen vampires all claimed to be the real Elvis and fought each other to the death to prove it.” I might as well have fun with the genre.

 

[lightbane]

You're expecting a lot from edgy writers that could never decide how edgy or over-the-top their setting want it to be. Even Chronicles of Darkness suffers from the same thing.

 

[Wesp5]

I mean the cabbie is just Caine in the game files. As far as we are concerned they are just a vampire who's above it all, so above in fact that they are both in the background and behind everything that happened.

Exactly. Why would the biblical God give Cain any powers in the first place? His curse was intended to be a punishment, not meant to make him into a semi god who could change all of humanity...

Ravnos is a demonstration of the antediluvians real power and scale, rather than them just being incrementally tougher elders.

The same goes for that. Why would the biblical God allow this as result of Caine's punishment? To me it seems the issue is with the PnP writers powerplay, not the Caine-as-cabbie idea of Bloodlines.

 

[Zeriel]

I mean the cabbie is just Caine in the game files. As far as we are concerned they are just a vampire who's above it all, so above in fact that they are both in the background and behind everything that happened.

Exactly. Why would the biblical God give Cain any powers in the first place? His curse was intended to be a punishment, not meant to make him into a semi god who could change all of humanity...

Ravnos is a demonstration of the antediluvians real power and scale, rather than them just being incrementally tougher elders.

The same goes for that. Why would the biblical God allow this as result of Caine's punishment? To me it seems the issue is with the PnP writers powerplay, not the Caine-as-cabbie idea of Bloodlines.

You're not supposed to take the "God cursed Cain" stuff literally and one-dimensionally, I don't think. WoD's God is either missing or never existed, and anyway this sort of literalism gets into real world theology of "why does evil exist in the world if God exists", so if you want an answer to that you already have thousands of years of thought to turn to.

There's any number of fairly defensible, obvious explanations there:

God cursed Cain so he could reflect and learn, and his direct contact with the divine resulted in all the god-like powers those closest to his origin have.

God never cursed Cain at all, it was one of the elohim and their designs are cryptic.

One of the themes of WoD's lore is that it's a funhouse mirror room of lies, so you shouldn't take anything at face value. There was probably an origin event concerning Cain, but that doesn't mean it went down exactly the way it's described in Noddist lore. You might as well ask why Lucifer is allowed to have godlike powers when he's eeeeeevil. Well, because people who rub shoulders with the divine are just on another class. Moralism has little to do with it.

 

[Storyfag]

Also DtF is contradicted by most of the other games. WtA has its triat, MtA has consensus reality, WtO has only pagan underworld kingdoms, CtD has only pagan fairies, and Mummy is based on Ancient Egyptian mythology.

And if you read into all of that, it all does fit together. Roughly, but it does.

The only reason these writers don’t jettison the Christian roots is because of the arbitrary inconsistent lore worship found throughout this fandom. I quite frankly find the lack of commitment ridiculous and insulting. Either make a Christian mythos or don’t. Don’t pull this wishy washy bullshit because you inconsistently worship the lore as holy writ except for all those times you arbitrarily retcon it.

The only reason the writers don't jettison the Christian roots is because they are powerful cultural themes, also reflected in multiple, sometimes worthy, works of pop-culture.

 

[Vincente]

Why would the biblical God give Cain any powers in the first place?

God didn't, it was Lilith who taught him everything. God just cursed him to wander the earth, and the whole "tenfold" thing IIRC, although correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Storyfag]

Why would the biblical God give Cain any powers in the first place?

God didn't, it was Lilith who taught him everything. God just cursed him to wander the earth, and the whole "tenfold" thing IIRC, although correct me if I'm wrong.

I think it's one of the things that have been left vague, with a lot of shitflinging among the Noddists regarding the details.

 

[sosmoflux]

This power level stuff is fun. Who would win, Cain or Goku? Cain or Alucard from the Hellsing anime?

 

[Storyfag]

This power level stuff is fun. Who would win, Cain or Goku? Cain or Alucard from the Hellsing anime?

You're not getting it. Caine's not playing the game the way that leads to direct confrontations. Some of his Grandchilder do. Caine will, at best, drive Goku or Alucard around in a cab.

 

[Delterius]

His curse was intended to be a punishment, not meant to make him into a semi god who could change all of humanity...

Easy. Cain's curse is that he's destined to see his children kill each other forever. Vampirekind is a curse on all of humanity. It is part of the evil that exists in the profane world and will continue to exist until judgement day.

 

[sosmoflux]

Who would win five generation 3s or one generation 2, no prep time, and describe the conflict

 

[Roguey]

Why would the biblical God give Cain any powers in the first place?

God didn't, it was Lilith who taught him everything. God just cursed him to wander the earth, and the whole "tenfold" thing IIRC, although correct me if I'm wrong.

I think it's one of the things that have been left vague, with a lot of shitflinging among the Noddists regarding the details.

Multiple takes from the Gehenna book:

 

[Delterius]

Who would win five generation 3s or one generation 2, no prep time, and describe the conflict

technocracy orbital laser beam aka 'nuclear test'

 

[RaggleFraggle]

You're expecting a lot from edgy writers that could never decide how edgy or over-the-top their setting want it to be. Even Chronicles of Darkness suffers from the same thing.

Indeed. I don’t have a problem with a b-movie style (I’m a fan of Bloodlines) but they refuse to lean into that and still act as though this stuff is totally serious and not pretentious af.