World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Lambach]

Your character is both higher Gen than some of the enemies he faces and younger than them by at least a century or two.

If you remember Andrei the Tzimisce, he speaks of your blood being more potent on the second encounter with him, which implies someone's manipulating shit from the background. Cabbie being Caine, this makes perfect sense because he has every single possible Discipline to the max and probably can invent new ones on the spot, so thickening your blood and increasing your generation / strength is a basic feat for him, though why he would get involved with such a small scale event, who knows?

Yeah, that's my main problem with the "Cabbie is Caine" theory. Seems like the most powerful creature on planet Earth would do something else with his time other than just drive a Taxi in LA. In terms of Kindred politics, LA isn't a big deal anyway.

 

[Storyfag]

The premise is that a Cainite takes time to hone his powers. Therefore even a high generation Elder will likely mop the floor with a low generation Neonate. Yes, the Neonate has higher potential, but hasn't reached it yet.

This is routinely ignored by TTRPG scenarios and Bloodlines itself. And that's a good thing.

Well, everything is ignored by Bloodlines. Your character is both higher Gen than some of the enemies he faces and younger than them by at least a century or two.

EDIT: And it's not just your character that's stupid overpowered. Nines wrestled with a Werewolf 1-on-1 and won. Without any silver weapons to boot.

Well, the Fledgling is only *slightly* higher gen. The Lupine thing... eh, it was prolly just a pup.

 

[Wesp5]

Yeah, that's my main problem with the "Cabbie is Caine" theory. Seems like the most powerful creature on planet Earth would do something else with his time other than just drive a Taxi in LA.

My personal theory is that Caine is just playing with his Children to see how they have evolved. Like when a potential danger like the sarcophagus turns up, who will help each other and who will fight each other instead. He can then use this to decide whom to save when Gehenna comes. As for Jeanette/Therese being 6th generation, this is clearly a retcon as I don't think they even existed in the VtM lore before Bloodlines and there are other stupid things the V5 writers made up as if they haven't even played the game, like the whole story with Arthur Kilpatrick. I have the feeling somebody noticed the game is a cult classic, so they tried to include some characters into the new release in any way they could...

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Yeah, that's my main problem with the "Cabbie is Caine" theory. Seems like the most powerful creature on planet Earth would do something else with his time other than just drive a Taxi in LA. In terms of Kindred politics, LA isn't a big deal anyway.

Well, LA at that time was a hodgepodge of various factions vying for control, so I guess Caine would be interested to see how things unfold (and to mess with his descendants through proxies like Smiling Jack while awaiting Gehenna when he'll judge them for their failures). And being a cab driver seems more like a poetic allegory on the part of the devs for him being cursed to aimlessly wander the Earth, watching and listening to those in the both literal and metaphorical backseat who disregard his presence.

 

[Lambach]

That's the problem with trying to insert these god-like characters like Caine into the story - how are you supposed to know what a 6000-year-old being with superhuman, alien intellect would behave like?

Nigga's probably got 10 Auspex on top of god-like Mental stats, he's virtually omniscient. Would he really need to play those little games and run these "tests" like with the Sarcophagus to find out what he wants to know?

 

[Heroic Liberator]

That's the problem with trying to insert these god-like characters like Caine into the story - how are you supposed to know what a 6000-year-old being with superhuman, alien intellect would behave like?

It's one of those situations where leaving it open to interpretation is better than providing an answer (hence it worked in the game's favor that White Wolf didn't allow the devs to have the game's story confirm the cabbie as actually being Caine). Might be Caine, might be a Malkavian thinking that he's Caine or he might just be some random vamp like any other that has nothing to do with Caine who just happened to tag along for Jack's independent trolling of the city's vamp denizens with the whole sarcophagus fiasco.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Bloodlines is a cult classic because it had a story with characters that was good. You could strip away the lore and replace it with something original (as Troika intended before Activision told them to use the license), and Mitsoda’s skill as a writer would still show through.

I will continue to claim that the way Troika integrated the lore is the true masterpiece here. A microcosm of the setting within a single city. If you cannot admire that, you have no soul.

I don't accept RaggleFraggle 's premise at all, personally. Classic WoD & VTM has some of the best lore & background ever devised for a tabletop game. It's truly ridiculous to me to see someone badmouthing it in generic terms. Like, seriously, I'm supposed to take it sitting down that VTM lore is bad compared to... what... Forgotten fucking Realms?

Yeah, sure, there are silly aberrations like ecoterrorist werewolves, but even the dumb parts have their fun aspects. Pentex & Technocracy are cool, and the scheming and nested mysteries of the Jyhad is far more interesting a premise and deep setting to dig into than most tabletop games manage. I'm honestly not sure what people are comparing it to to say it is bad, and certainly the notion that Mitsoda is a better writer than the sum total of classic VTM is a total fucking lie.

I've always thought of VTM as a great tapestry for telling stories, with some pretty bland game mechanics. It's far more fun to dick around thinking up ideas and plotlines for the game than it is to actually play it. Kind of the opposite of D&D's non-planescape/2e golden age era, boring d&d settings like Eberron or Greyhawk where you have great, fun game mechanics with absolutely atrociously generic story you have to overlook or toss aside.

I imagine that must be quite easy to say when the ttrpg market is so stagnant and dead that nobody else was ever able to make another comparable urban fantasy rpg. Every ttrpg genre has just one game that dominates 99%, preventing anything else from breaking into the market. It’s hard to make a fair comparison when there’s nothing to compare to in the same genre space. If the only fantasy novel we had was Eragon, then I’m sure fantasy readers would think it’s amazing and devise elaborate justifications and headcanons.

Also, I think Greyhawk fans would strongly disagree with you and I’m guessing you never read Eberron because it’s far from generic. It’s entire shtick is that it’s a reinvention of the fantasy genre that discards D&Disms and introduces magitech and stuff. I at least spend years in WW fandom, read multiple editions of books at length, and was actually a fan for some time before I got burned out by the edition wars and became a staunch critic. What D&D background do you have that makes you think you can dismiss a niche dungeonpunk setting like Eberron as atrociously generic? It’s basically the same genre as Arcanum and the cameos from standard fantasy races are the only thing keeping from becoming unrecognizable like anything by Monte Cook.

I disagree. Strongly. Look at Harry Potter: it gives recognition to Hogwarts Legacy. Anything with Star Wars in name will gain recognition. Same goes for DnD. Or Warhammer (both Dark Fantasy and 40,000). There is a symbiotic nature between the setting and the work. A game can gain recognition from the brand (by the virtue of familiarity, if nothing else), while the brand has its recognition strengthened if said game happens to be good.

I don’t think that’s a fair comparison. For the most part those were wildly successful franchises with broader audiences before their video games were made. WoD is an obscure ttrpg (every ttrpg except D&D is obscure to a general audience) that was already seeing declining profits in the mid-late 90s and the two video games probably did the most to inject any longevity. White Wolf sold 7 million items total by 2005-6 or so according to the last public figure on their website before it got taken down. We don’t have sales figures given for any later dates, but the fact that their output has hugely shrunk and they relied kickstarters in the 2010s are not a good sign. I remember when they used to sell board games, card games and promotional knickknacks on their website, as well as publishing ttrpgs from other devs like Sword & Sorcery, BESM or Pimp: The Backhanding. Then they got bought out and dissolved twice. It’s quite telling that Paradox has been trying to cash-in on Bloodlines’ name recognition specifically despite none of their video game products being linked to its plot or characters.

This isn’t an isolated case. I imagine Cyberpunk 2077 and Edgerunners did more to help the ttrpg’s visibility and profitability than anything Talsorian did on their own since they first started in 1989.

No shit ttrpgs make chump change compared to any mass market. The market isn’t a growth sector. It has a ridiculous first mover advantage that outright prevents any competition, like a communist economy. It’s been steadily declining as a result of competition with video games and collectible card games that are actually subject to capitalist market forces. It crashed in the late 90s (especially in Europe, where virtually all ttrpg companies at the time went bankrupt) and aside from D&D has never recovered. And D&D’s success this decade was entirely down to free advertising by Stranger Things and Critical Role and most of that player influx isn’t going to last anyway.

But I digress.

Anyway, aside from Potter the corpos are trying their best to erode their name brand recognition by chasing woke audiences. And once the damage to their image is done, you can’t undo it. So brand recognition is unreliable as shit. Anyone who relies on it, corpo or customer, is in for a rude awakening. I see general media channels like Clownfish TV reporting on WotC alienating their audiences by refusing to publish Barsoom Dark Sun because it’s “problematic”. Btw Pulp is a really underexploited market at present.

 

[normie]

Yeah, that's my main problem with the "Cabbie is Caine" theory. Seems like the most powerful creature on planet Earth would do something else with his time other than just drive a Taxi in LA.

My personal theory is that Caine is just playing with his Children to see how they have evolved. Like when a potential danger like the sarcophagus turns up, who will help each other and who will fight each other instead.

that's not your personal theory
that's the truth of the matter, in broad strokes
we went over this

Wesp5 so i read somewhere that the cab driver's files are with prefix caine,is that true mate?

Yes, the Cabbie's dialogue file is called Caine and he is also called Caine in the Python scripts and the maps themselves. So it's certainly not just a joke one of the developers pulled on the others! Also regarding to the question "And what exactly is he testing by empowering the PC?", you all overlook that he is testing the player too. Like what will a common freshly embraced vampire do if he gets such powers as the player has in the end? And both Cabbie and Jack even included a safety precaution for this, because if the player succumbs to the power the C4 explosion will kill and remove him.

You are over thinking it,it just an easter egg for the players to find,or part of some cut content.

you're confused, he's referring to the possibility of you opening the sarcophagus

I know what he is talking about,i have replayed the game quite a few times. Devs most likely put him in because he is cool and mysterious. Not because there some hidden meaning of testing the player and the protagonist lol. We are taking about people that made their dream game,and was called outer worlds. While the writer still wears fingerless gloves in his 40ies lol.

well, yeah, there's that, Bloodlines is not some great contribution to "tha canon" authored by people with due reverence, but a rollercoaster within the setting centered around the player experience, ultimately wowing the player with big daddy Caine's presence - even so, Caine was also intentionally built up to effect and purpose

you spend the game being manipulated by elders too absorbed with their own schemes while you, the player, are revealed the real manipulation at play with a wink and a nod

the writing in the game does toy with the idea that this is some sort of scheme to judge or test the local vampire society, and that you are either a blunt instrument in the scheme who's of no particular consequence or that you're instrumentalised to such effect specifically because you are young, unaffiliated and not set in your ways, with no sire to jerk you around, effectively through narrative aligning the player's motivation with the player character's - but at the same time it also does the "I am beyond your comprehension" bit in an attempt to leave Caine's reasons alien and vague and have it both ways, it just is what it is

the whole game is written to make the attentive player ponder the presence of Caine, sitting in the back of the cab and having the realisation dawn is supposed to be a real "oh shit" moment, not "oh well, that's definitely not the guy the game's been spelling out it is, it might be a crazy malk or something lol"

but at the same time it also does the "I am beyond your comprehension" bit in an attempt to leave Caine's reasons alien and vague and have it both ways, it just is what it is

Cryptic maybe. But not beyond comprehension. Just pay attention to Beckett. Maaaaybe some more Noddist loredumps would be in order to make the comprehension of Caine/bbe easier.

oh yeah, just from Slashterpiece one can gather the intentions of the writing and where the game wants your head to be at - the game continues to introduce relevant perspectives and conflicting history to you through various characters and Beckett gives you the context to make the right pieces fit (with the benefit of your complete perspective)

That's the problem with trying to insert these god-like characters like Caine into the story - how are you supposed to know what a 6000-year-old being with superhuman, alien intellect would behave like?

It's one of those situations where leaving it open to interpretation is better than providing an answer (hence it worked in the game's favor that White Wolf didn't allow the devs to have the game's story confirm the cabbie as actually being Caine). Might be Caine, might be a Malkavian thinking that he's Caine or he might be just some random vamp like any other that has nothing to do with Caine who just tagged along for Jack's independent trolling of the city's vamp denizens with the whole sarcophagus fiasco.

no, as far as the game's intentions go, there is an answer, and you know the answer full well - White Wolf a shit, and don't give the ambiguityfags an inch

 

[Heroic Liberator]

no, as far as the game's intentions go, there is an answer, and you know the answer full well

Well, there's an answer for what they originally intended for that particular NPC. We don't know if White Wolf's refusal led Troika to change that character or not (either by removing already made content or by cutting, changing and/or not implementing further content that they had planned for him).

Personally I like the theory of him being Caine (there's sillier stuff in WoD lore anyway) since it fits well with the broader theme of supernatural things hiding in plain sight within the mundane world. And for someone like Caine, the vamps of modern nights are just as mundane to him as humans are to them. So Caine being a cabbie is just him upholding his personal masquerade from both humans and lesser vamps.

 

[Lambach]

So Caine being a cabbie is just him upholding his personal masquerade from both humans and lesser vamps.

We know that other ancients don't just hide and observe when they wake up, tho. E.g. that Assamite Methuselah just up and erased the curse the Tremere put on his Clan and then went to town on "dissident" Assamites and other enemies.

But then again, it is Caine, whose mind is even more alien, so going back to my previous point, you can't even tell what would "make sense" for him to do because.... what's the point of reference?

 

[Zeriel]

So Caine being a cabbie is just him upholding his personal masquerade from both humans and lesser vamps.

We know that other ancients don't just hide and observe when they wake up, tho. E.g. that Assamite Methuselah just up and erased the curse the Tremere put on his Clan and then went to town on "dissident" Assamites and other enemies.

But then again, it is Caine, whose mind is even more alien, so going back to my previous point, you can't even tell what would "make sense" for him to do because.... what's the point of reference?

To be fair, the same argument applies to methuselahs and antediluvians. Some antediluvians napped for 8,000 years. Others were unusually active (see: Lasombra). Some just want to wake up and eat everything in a 1,000 mile radius. Others don't. Some elders get fucked up because they are way too active. Others are so dormant or reclusive they are assumed to be dead until they pop up and are all PSYKE. Like Coelacanths of the vampire world.

They're mostly a mystery box/plot device for the needs of keeping the board largely cleared for players, to be brought out when necessary. Lore wise though there's a lot of variety in terms of behavior. Just compare Ravnos being... well... ravenous, to Tzimisce's more plotting attempt to use the Anarch Revolt + travel to New York and quietly absorb lots of stuff into himself slowly over the years.

I have to say personally I'm not a fan of the way Cain is often portrayed as very "human" in Bloodlines and some other material. It seems counter to the trend you get going to the older generations up to that point, and has this weird effect of making him seem less cool and full of mystique than the antediluvians, who have this fun "what even ARE they thinking?" quality to them with being inhuman monsters with their own unknowable designs. In that way the antediluvians remind me of the aliens in XCOM, the mystery is what makes them fun.

 

[Roguey]

I have no idea of what they are teasing, frankly. It doesn't ring any bell.

Original IP which they mentioned a long time ago.

 

[Lambach]

Just compare Ravnos being... well... ravenous, to Tzimisce's more plotting attempt to use the Anarch Revolt + travel to New York and quietly absorb lots of stuff into himself slowly over the years.

IIRC Ravnos entered a Frenzy, hence his chimpout. Going full HULK SMASH is otherwise uncharacteristic of creatures that weaved globe-spanning plots for centuries while in a coma.

 

[Zeriel]

Just compare Ravnos being... well... ravenous, to Tzimisce's more plotting attempt to use the Anarch Revolt + travel to New York and quietly absorb lots of stuff into himself slowly over the years.

IIRC Ravnos entered a Frenzy, hence his chimpout. Going full HULK SMASH is otherwise uncharacteristic of creatures that weaved globe-spanning plots for centuries while in a coma.

Isn't the implication that any of them who had actually torpor'd for long enough would be in a feeding frenzy upon awakening? And due to being low generation, they have to feed on fellow vampires, not mortals.

While the writers seem to steer away from that for their own pet projects and needs with some antediluvians who stay awake, that seemed to be the core conceit of the antediluvian vs. younger vampires tension. They are sleeping to give time for lots of new vampires to be embraced, so they can wake up and feed lots and lots. Then you have attempts to regulate the vampire population with the Sabbat & Camarilla having different approaches to it.

Building up a huge cache of walking bloodbags to feed on IS the globe-spanning plot, presumedly. It just so turns out the walking bloodbags are not humans, but vampires.

 

[Lambach]

Isn't the implication that any of them who had actually torpor'd for long enough would be in a feeding frenzy upon awakening? And due to being low generation, they have to feed on fellow vampires, not mortals.

While the writers seem to steer away from that for their own pet projects and needs with some antediluvians who stay awake, that seemed to be the core conceit of the antediluvian vs. younger vampires tension. They are sleeping to give time for lots of new vampires to be embraced, so they can wake up and feed lots and lots. Then you have attempts to regulate the vampire population with the Sabbat & Camarilla having different approaches to it.

Building up a huge cache of walking bloodbags to feed on IS the globe-spanning plot, presumedly. It just so turns out the walking bloodbags are not humans, but vampires.

The Gehenna book was the one that came closest to describing their specific goals and motives, IIRC, but since the book was garbage, I forgot most of it.

But I think it boiled down to a Free For All Deathmatch where each Antedeluvian was trying to get rid of the others and be the last man standing, which, after all the mystery and several millenia of the Jyhad, felt like a wet fart of a revelation tbh.

 

[Delterius]

Nines wrestled with a Werewolf 1-on-1 and won. Without any silver weapons to boot.

i thought nines just lucked out and exploded a grenade inside the were's head? i don't actually remember why i think thats the case

that's not your personal theory
that's the truth of the matter, in broad strokes
we went over this

yeah the game spells it outright. caine used the protagonist to get a free perspective on things. what should be the cainite's future? one of the sects? playing nice with the kuei jin? maybe there's no future and everyone should just fuck off. the way i see it caine comes across as though he's travelling the world and getting a good look at his children.

 

[Lambach]

i thought nines just lucked out and exploded a grenade inside the were's head? i don't actually remember why i think thats the case

It was never specified how he managed to do it, so that explanation is as good as any.

 

[Zeriel]

Isn't the implication that any of them who had actually torpor'd for long enough would be in a feeding frenzy upon awakening? And due to being low generation, they have to feed on fellow vampires, not mortals.

While the writers seem to steer away from that for their own pet projects and needs with some antediluvians who stay awake, that seemed to be the core conceit of the antediluvian vs. younger vampires tension. They are sleeping to give time for lots of new vampires to be embraced, so they can wake up and feed lots and lots. Then you have attempts to regulate the vampire population with the Sabbat & Camarilla having different approaches to it.

Building up a huge cache of walking bloodbags to feed on IS the globe-spanning plot, presumedly. It just so turns out the walking bloodbags are not humans, but vampires.

The Gehenna book was the one that came closest to describing their specific goals and motives, IIRC, but since the book was garbage, I forgot most of it.

But I think it boiled down to a Free For All Deathmatch where each Antedeluvian was trying to get rid of the others and be the last man standing, which, after all the mystery and several millenia of the Jyhad, felt like a wet fart of a revelation tbh.

Yeah, I've never been a fan of the Gehenna "endgame" as a concept, it seems like it's better off just freezing things before that point, and letting players figure out their own apocalypses if they want to. Reminds me of Warhammer Fantasy's "end times"; even if you say it's optional people will just treat that as being what the fate of the world is anyway. Week of Nightmares was cool for establishing the power levels of antediluvians, though, so at least now you know the hellscape that is awaiting people rather than just leaving it up in the air and saying, "Well I guess they are 10% faster and stronger than 5th genners".

 

[Roguey]

It was never specified how he managed to do it, so that explanation is as good as any.

Chekhov's grenade. They wouldn't put so much focus on them if they weren't important.

 

[Lambach]

the way i see it caine comes across as though he's travelling the world and getting a good look at his children.

See, this is why I dislike the Caine = cabbie thing, because it makes him so.... mundane. Almost human, even.

Vampires with enough skill with Auspex can use it even while in Torpor, so why would he need to physically observe them like a peasant instead of just Astral Projecting everywhere in his sleep?

 

[Harthwain]

Yeah, that's my main problem with the "Cabbie is Caine" theory. Seems like the most powerful creature on planet Earth would do something else with his time other than just drive a Taxi in LA. In terms of Kindred politics, LA isn't a big deal anyway.

It's very American way of doing things, akin to presenting the actual God as a janitor (Bruce Almighty). "Just a slob like one of us. Just a stranger on the bus". It's supposed to be cool, I guess. It's either than or God being absent and characters having to guess at his motives.

It’s quite telling that Paradox has been trying to cash-in on Bloodlines’ name recognition specifically despite none of their video game products being linked to its plot or characters.

It may be less telling than you think. Bloodlines has cult following and a reputation among gamers, so it stands to reason for Paradox to use this video game to promote another video game as part of the series (despite not really being linked by anything but name). Something like Werewolf: The Apocalypse - Earthblood used World of Darkness instead.

 

[Zeriel]

Yeah, that's my main problem with the "Cabbie is Caine" theory. Seems like the most powerful creature on planet Earth would do something else with his time other than just drive a Taxi in LA. In terms of Kindred politics, LA isn't a big deal anyway.

It's very American way of doing things, akin to presenting the actual God as a janitor (Bruce Almighty). "Just a slob like one of us. Just a stranger on the bus". It's supposed to be cool, I guess. It's either than or God being absent and characters having to guess at his motives.

It’s quite telling that Paradox has been trying to cash-in on Bloodlines’ name recognition specifically despite none of their video game products being linked to its plot or characters.

It may be less telling than you think. Bloodlines has cult following and a reputation among gamers, so it stands to reason for Paradox to use this video game to promote another video game as part of the series (despite not really being linked by anything but name). Something like Werewolf: The Apocalypse - Earthblood used World of Darkness instead.

Yeah, it's like Planescape Torment getting a "spiritual sequel" (read: cynical milking with a trash product). Not because Planescape is even a live franchise anymore, but because journos talked it up enough in public for it to be seen to have some dollar signs attached to it to suits whose only experience with it is what they read on their phone when browsing news.

White Wolf's heyday was late 90s/early 2000s. By the time Bloodline was out it was already diving into the dumpster if we look at it in retrospective.

 

[Delterius]

Vampires with enough skill with Auspex can use it even while in Torpor, so why would he need to physically observe them like a peasant instead of just Astral Projecting everywhere in his sleep?

been there done that for 5,000 years. sometimes you just want to engineer vampire society's breakdown as a controlled experiment

 

[Zeriel]

the way i see it caine comes across as though he's travelling the world and getting a good look at his children.

See, this is why I dislike the Caine = cabbie thing, because it makes him so.... mundane. Almost human, even.

Vampires with enough skill with Auspex can use it even while in Torpor, so why would he need to physically observe them like a peasant instead of just Astral Projecting everywhere in his sleep?

Yep, it cheapens him as a character (whether he should even exist as a character is another debate to had). Methuselahs? Yeah, okay, maybe talk to a player character in a disguised form or through pawns. 4th gen? On the precipice of demigod hood. 3rd gen? Biblical horrors. 2nd gen? So far out there we don't even know what they were like really, they are mythological figures. And then... 1st gen, Cain, is some guy in a cab? It's such a fucking letdown.

Vampires with enough skill with Auspex can use it even while in Torpor, so why would he need to physically observe them like a peasant instead of just Astral Projecting everywhere in his sleep?

been there done that for 5,000 years. sometimes you just want to engineer vampire society's breakdown as a controlled experiment

He doesn't need to talk to a thin blood in a cab to do that. He can literally do anything. Control any human being from the other side of the globe. Tell every animal in the continent to do something. Brainwash you without ever stepping in the same city as you. And these are just powers that lesser vampires have, let alone him. I think the trope with Cain is supposed to be... that, in reaction to the Curse, he's developed more humanity than most vampires, it's kind of an inversion of the theme. I'm just not a fan of it because it leaves him as a pretty boring and bland character that has already been done with a bunch of other vampires on the Golconda path.

 

[Lambach]

engineer vampire society's breakdown as a controlled experiment

Meh, trolling a bunch of kids doesn't sound like something a depressed, millenia-old, nigh-omnipotent god would do. Specially not from a Taxi.