World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 - VTMB sequel from The Chinese Room - coming early 2025

[Roguey]

Tabletop whales are second only to mobile game whales. They buy up every possible book and official figure on mass just to store it.

"How do you make a small fortune in tabletop RPGs? Start with a large one."

The World of Darkness was bought for a seven digit figure. It had little value when Paradox bought it, it has even less value now. Dungeons and Dragons this isn't.

 

[Hell Swarm]

The World of Darkness was bought for a seven digit figure. It had little value when Paradox bought it, it has even less value now. Dungeons and Dragons this isn't.

WoD was one of the biggest roleplaying games of the late 90s and early 00s. There's a reason it has multiple computer games

 

[Roguey]

WoD was one of the biggest roleplaying games of the late 90s and early 00s. There's a reason it has multiple computer games

Keyword being was. The New World of Darkness wasn't as popular as the old, and then CCP Games let it languish for an entire decade because of the MMO that never happened. Vampire: The Masquerade wasn't even on Swen Vincke's radar when it came to what licensed game he wanted to make to boost Larian's profile (the choices being Baldur's Gate, Fallout, and Ultima).

 

[sosmoflux]

World of Dorkness

 

[The President]

I’m convinced at this point that you really need the stars to align perfectly for there to be a good WOD game. The potential is there but it just doesn’t seem like it’s going to materialize. It’ll be dumb luck if it actually manages to happen.

This series is going to end up like Star Wars where they keep giving it to different teams who have their own views and take on it and no one really seems to get it minus like one guy. Paradox also is out of their depth with RPGs so they can’t really judge accurately whether or not a project is getting it right or progressing in the right direction.

The fact that we also can’t get the full story of what happened with HSL is telling as unless someone gets brave and leaks the old build once everyone’s NDAs expire we’ll never see what they had there. I’ve really asked about this game over the last few years and only gotten tidbits of information from the few I’ve met who had some minor role or worked as a contractor relatively early on in development. Maybe they had a good foundation to build on there, maybe they didn’t, Paradox doesn’t seem like it would recognize one either way. And from the percentage cut they ask from studios, no one who is good is going to want to take on the WOD.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

I would love to know if they turned meaningful profit in the years since that purchase. Margins on book sales, especially since they effectively axed half of WoD properties, have to be razor thin these days and biggest success they had with video games seem to be CYOAs. Killer app never really materialized for Paradox.

I don't believe that the manuals and small games will make back even half of the money invested in the franchise, especially since Bloodlines 2 was preceded by the canceled MMO

I’m convinced at this point that you really need the stars to align perfectly for there to be a good WOD game. The potential is there but it just doesn’t seem like it’s going to materialize. It’ll be dumb luck if it actually manages to happen.

This series is going to end up like Star Wars where they keep giving it to different teams who have their own views and take on it and no one really seems to get it minus like one guy. Paradox also is out of their depth with RPGs so they can’t really judge accurately whether or not a project is getting it right or progressing in the right direction.

The fact that we also can’t get the full story of what happened with HSL is telling as unless someone gets brave and leaks the old build once everyone’s NDAs expire we’ll never see what they had there. I’ve really asked about this game over the last few years and only gotten tidbits of information from the few I’ve met who had some minor role or worked as a contractor relatively early on in development. Maybe they had a good foundation to build on there, maybe they didn’t, Paradox doesn’t seem like it would recognize one either way. And from the percentage cut they ask from studios, no one who is good is going to want to take on the WOD.

Paradox's power was built on a series of decent strategies that they started diluting with additions. The influx of money and the breakdown of the production process gave them a false sense that everything could be done this way. Suddenly it turned out that everything in the company was "floating", money was flowing in amounts that the accountants could not control, and the management board barely knew what it was producing. But hey, we are Paradox, super Swedes, look at the renaissance of the Hearts Of Iron 4! No need to worry, full speed ahead!

And so we reached today.

I believe that the new Bloodlines would have to be very different from the original to be current, but still retain its edge. Something like this could be achieved by a small, experienced, dedicated team, and that's what Troika was, bringing Vampire into the new century. I don't believe something like this is possible in Paradox structures.

 

[Semiurge]

I’m convinced at this point that you really need the stars to align perfectly for there to be a good WOD game. The potential is there but it just doesn’t seem like it’s going to materialize. It’ll be dumb luck if it actually manages to happen.

This series is going to end up like Star Wars where they keep giving it to different teams who have their own views and take on it and no one really seems to get it minus like one guy. Paradox also is out of their depth with RPGs so they can’t really judge accurately whether or not a project is getting it right or progressing in the right direction.

The fact that we also can’t get the full story of what happened with HSL is telling as unless someone gets brave and leaks the old build once everyone’s NDAs expire we’ll never see what they had there. I’ve really asked about this game over the last few years and only gotten tidbits of information from the few I’ve met who had some minor role or worked as a contractor relatively early on in development. Maybe they had a good foundation to build on there, maybe they didn’t, Paradox doesn’t seem like it would recognize one either way. And from the percentage cut they ask from studios, no one who is good is going to want to take on the WOD.

The best thing would be that this thing flops so hard that Paradox will reconsider selling the IP.

 

[Semiurge]

I believe that the new Bloodlines would have to be very different from the original to be current, but still retain its edge. Something like this could be achieved by a small, experienced, dedicated team, and that's what Troika was, bringing Vampire into the new century. I don't believe something like this is possible in Paradox structures.

No, it isn't. In addition to the passionate team that knows what the setting is about, Bloodlines 2 would need a publisher open-minded enough to allow that kind of edgy creativity. Sometimes this kind of open-mindedness from the management is the result of pure ignorance, being so out of touch with the gamer base that they simply wouldn't have any choice but to see what sticks.

Frank Zappa knew what this is about. From his point of view the old-money, cigar-chomping managers were preferable to the yuppies who came from the fanbase itself, full of ideas and insight ready to be implemented. The young managers were thus less-open minded, ironically. This breed of executive is exemplified by the loafered "entertainment lawyer" of the '80s. They always wanted to be hep creatives, but realised that there's more money and power in management. Game development and publishing is a young man's industry now, sadly, so the creatives can't dupe those clueless execs anymore like they used to. Management also seems to be getting more estrogen rich, so there's no need to wonder why "the lone auteur" type of game designing is no longer considered cool.

 

[The President]

The best thing would be that this thing flops so hard that Paradox will reconsider selling the IP.

What’s more likely is a Legacy of Kain or Silent Hill type scenario. They’ll just sit on the IP for years and do nothing with it. Or you’ll just get cheap games here and there.

 

[Semiurge]

The best thing would be that this thing flops so hard that Paradox will reconsider selling the IP.

What’s more likely is a Legacy of Kain or Silent Hill type scenario. They’ll just sit on the IP for years and do nothing with it. Or you’ll just get cheap games here and there.

Sitting on equity never hurts, even when it's considered worthless. Someday it may be worth something again.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

I believe that the new Bloodlines would have to be very different from the original to be current, but still retain its edge. Something like this could be achieved by a small, experienced, dedicated team, and that's what Troika was, bringing Vampire into the new century. I don't believe something like this is possible in Paradox structures.

No, it isn't. In addition to the passionate team that knows what the setting is about, Bloodlines 2 would need a publisher open-minded enough to allow that kind of edgy creativity. Sometimes this kind of open-mindedness from the management is the result of pure ignorance, being so out of touch with the gamer base that they simply wouldn't have any choice but to see what sticks.

Frank Zappa knew what this is about. From his point of view the old-money, cigar-chomping managers were preferable to the yuppies who came from the fanbase itself, full of ideas and insight ready to be implemented. The young managers were thus less-open minded, ironically. This breed of executive is exemplified by the loafered "entertainment lawyer" of the '80s. They always wanted to be hep creatives, but realised that there's more money and power in management. Game development and publishing is a young man's industry now, sadly, so the creatives can't dupe those clueless execs anymore like they used to. Management also seems to be getting more estrogen rich, so there's no need to wonder why "the lone auteur" type of game designing is no longer considered cool.

Recent events around the Olympics and a little earlier give me hope that perhaps something is changing in the world. Maybe Vampier needs different times.

 

[Jaesun]

I think at this point, even Redemption will be a better World of Darkness cRPG than.... this. And that is a pretty fucking low bar. This shit is just depressing since this is one of my favorite PnP settings.. (among others). ugh.

 

[Storyfag]

I think at this point, even Redemption will be a better World of Darkness cRPG than.... this. And that is a pretty fucking low bar.

How darest thou?! Speakest not ill of Redemption, or off to the Abyss with thee!

 

[Modron]

I think at this point, even Redemption will be a better World of Darkness cRPG than.... this. And that is a pretty fucking low bar. This shit is just depressing since this is one of my favorite PnP settings.. (among others). ugh.

But Redemption is the second best WoD game.

 

[S.torch]

They scrapped a whole game and team

Did they ever give an official reason why was the previous game even scrapped? The more time it passes, the better the previous game looked in comparison to this thing.

I had the feeling a suit saw that it looked too much like an RPG, and not a movie game and decided to get it scrapped because in his/her head that wasn't good. Now these guys came and have "Phyre" the zoomer vampire, with obvious cinematic dialogue, epic movie-like plot and they say this is what they want.

 

[Roguey]

I had the feeling a suit saw that it looked too much like an RPG, and not a movie game and decided to get it scrapped because in his/her head that wasn't good. Now these guys came and have "Phyre" the zoomer vampire, with obvious cinematic dialogue, epic movie-like plot and they say this is what they want.

Sources claim something close to this happened.

 

[Semiurge]

It's a tempting theory, but then I remembered the gameplay preview with the vents and the contextual turn to mist- power.

It didn't inspire confidence. HSL version's strength was those character designs seen in the trailers. The rest of whatever they were up to is a mystery.

 

[Wesp5]

It's a tempting theory, but then I remembered the gameplay preview with the vents and the contextual turn to mist-power.

My impression was that providing three different movement options for the three different thinblood powers (mist, gliding and telekinesis) was a level design nightmare and the reason why some time latter HSL announced that all clans would have access to these powers. If you believe Brian Mitsoda, which I do, the writing and thus the characters were basically finished, but I can imagine that the maps themselves were far from working when Paradox stopped them short, maybe for some other reasons as well.

 

[sosmoflux]

They scrapped a whole game and team

Did they ever give an official reason why was the previous game even scrapped? The more time it passes, the better the previous game looked in comparison to this thing.

I had the feeling a suit saw that it looked too much like an RPG, and not a movie game and decided to get it scrapped because in his/her head that wasn't good. Now these guys came and have "Phyre" the zoomer vampire, with obvious cinematic dialogue, epic movie-like plot and they say this is what they want.

We still have no solid story one way or the other
Mitsoda worked on it for a shocking 5 years before being canned, maybe they were all just having a laugh on Paradox's dime before they noticed, who knows

 

[Semiurge]

It's a tempting theory, but then I remembered the gameplay preview with the vents and the contextual turn to mist-power.

My impression was that providing three different movement options for the three different thinblood powers (mist, gliding and telekinesis) was a level design nightmare and the reason why some time latter HSL announced that all clans would have access to these powers.

I don't know. Deus Ex featured levels where you could either take the more dangerous front door route or squirm your way through the vents stealthily. The same opportunities could be adapted for gliding (quite easily in an urban environment) and telekinesis.

If they had any aptitude for level design, that is. Maybe that's just it.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

If you believe Brian Mitsoda, which I do, the writing and thus the characters were basically finished, but I can imagine that the maps themselves were far from working when Paradox stopped them short, maybe for some other reasons as well.

I find it mindboggling that they'd throw all that away in order to come up with some shittier more linear alternative. I'm assuming that Paradox would've owned anything that they did during that iteration, so TCR could've made use of it.

 

[Katerina]

From their dev diaries, TCR seems to be aiming for a "modern" adaptation of Dishonored rather than an actual RPG. Which is probably while it will fail miserably. Even if it's a good Dishonored game, it'll still be a bad VtM game imho.

 

[Wesp5]

It's a tempting theory, but then I remembered the gameplay preview with the vents and the contextual turn to mist-power.

My impression was that providing three different movement options for the three different thinblood powers (mist, gliding and telekinesis) was a level design nightmare and the reason why some time latter HSL announced that all clans would have access to these powers.

I don't know. Deus Ex featured levels where you could either take the more dangerous front door route or squirm your way through the vents stealthily. The same opportunities could be adapted for gliding (quite easily in an urban environment) and telekinesis.

Deus Ex had some very bad level design, because there had to be an alternate vent route to everything! Bloodlines tried to keep the world much more realistic while still offering talk, fight and sneak approaches. Now imagine those and three others...

 

[Vulpes]

They scrapped a whole game and team

Did they ever give an official reason why was the previous game even scrapped? The more time it passes, the better the previous game looked in comparison to this thing.

I had the feeling a suit saw that it looked too much like an RPG, and not a movie game and decided to get it scrapped because in his/her head that wasn't good. Now these guys came and have "Phyre" the zoomer vampire, with obvious cinematic dialogue, epic movie-like plot and they say this is what they want.

What little information has been released so far makes it sound like it was scrapped because their code was a broken, unsalvageable mess and the game was still far from finished. Most of the grunt work was done by inexperienced college graduates who were overworked to the point that they usually quit within a few months or even weeks, which resulted in a lot of poorly-written code being built on top of one another that no one could make any sense of. Why didn't Hardsuit's management do anything to about that? Probably because a lot of the senior staff were nepotistic hires who also had very little idea of what they're doing, with the best-known example being Cara Ellison. A former game journalist who Brian Mitsoda hired as his second-in-command on the writing team just because she was friends with his wife.

 

[The President]

Did they ever give an official reason why was the previous game even scrapped? The more time it passes, the better the previous game looked in comparison to this thing.

I had the feeling a suit saw that it looked too much like an RPG, and not a movie game and decided to get it scrapped because in his/her head that wasn't good. Now these guys came and have "Phyre" the zoomer vampire, with obvious cinematic dialogue, epic movie-like plot and they say this is what they want.

There was never an official reason given publicly at least.

I did operate on the assumption that the code and technical aspects were so bad that they just had to be scrapped or were deemed too difficult to move forward. I couldn’t imagine them cancelling a 5 year development for any other reason.

Now I’m starting to think differently, as Paradox is cancelling things constantly at various stages of development. It does make me wonder if it was really as FUBAR as was rumored. We’ll never know though unless someone speaks up or leaks the code or build from the latest HSL version. I’d love to examine it honestly. It’s very possible paradox axed a game the fans of the original would have preferred. I personally feel the HSL version had a higher ceiling, at least compared to what TCR has shown so far.