World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 - VTMB sequel from The Chinese Room - coming early 2025

[Roguey]

Why the fuck didn't they just let Hirsute Labs finish the game? Did they really think that the walking simulator studio could do a better job than them?

Is it just as simple as "we need this product to be ultra-WOKE at any cost"?

It was already ultra-woke. Paradox only cared about gameplay. The Ubisoft finisher told them they couldn't Frankenstein HSL's into the kind of game they wanted, so they started over.

All because that one-hit wonder Brian Mitsoda (whose impact on Bloodlines 1 has been greatly exaggerated over the years BTW)

Eh, he did write the majority of characters which is what people remember about it the most.

They should have used VTMB's original engine to save development costs and market it as a retro game

I've been told that version of Source wouldn't even pass certification these days.

 

[Bad Sector]

Both statements can be true without being contradictory. Hardsuit version could be crappy and bad, yet TCR's seems worse.

Not everyone can deal with morality systems more complex than what Bioware had in KOTOR :-P.

Elders don't have an inmediate reason to look for things themselves instead of having someone else do it for them.

Official lore aside (i only know of VtM from the games), but wasn't that basically what happened in VtM Redemption? Of course you're an elder there on a technicality but i think it'd still count as being an elder running around with the youngsters to look for things :-P.

I've been told that version of Source wouldn't even pass certification these days.

I know it was meant as a joke, but TBH i think hiring a competent programmer or two would have addressed that, though you'd need to find people who are not allergic to touching others' code.

 

[Wesp5]

It was already ultra-woke.

We don't know that. Yes, they talked a lot of woke things in interviews, but maybe because the game at the time wasn't woke enough and they wanted to appease Paradox.

I've been told that version of Source wouldn't even pass certification these days.

Certainly. But it would have been much easier to switch to Source 2, which looks like a slightly updated Source engine to me anyway.

 

[Roguey]

We don't know that. Yes, they talked a lot of woke things in interviews, but maybe because the game at the time wasn't woke enough and they wanted to appease Paradox.

Cara Ellison was a true believer and had been pushing for this kind of stuff for years, and she was Brian's personal choice as #2 writer whom he valued a lot more than Avellone (whose work was entirely rejected).

(though there's also a non-zero chance he just wanted to sleep with her)

Certainly. But it would have been much easier to switch to Source 2, which looks like a slightly updated Source engine to me anyway.

Source 2 isn't even available for licensing because Valve doesn't really care about these things anymore.

 

[The President]

Are people really going to want to work with Source 2 over say Unreal 5 or the other engines available at this point?

I’m assuming this upcoming dev diary is going to be the introduction of TCR’s version of Damsel.

 

[Sarkile]

I am starting to actually get excited for this dumpsterphyre to release. I'm willing to bet watching the development hell is more fun than the game could ever be, but it will be interesting to see how bad it actually turns out.

 

[Vulpes]

Eh, he did write the majority of characters which is what people remember about it the most.

I find that hard to believe seeing as he only joined the team during the last year of development. All of the NPCs in the game were voiced, so they would've had to re-record tons of dialogue in a very short amount of time. Maybe it could be true for the NPCs Brian himself voiced like Romero and the news reporter, but the rest? It's doubtful they could've gotten a busy voice actor like Phil LaMarr (who back then was also working on Justice League, Futurama, Static Shock and many other animated shows) to come back at a moment's notice and redo the lines for Skelter, Dennis, Malcolm and Fat Larry.

Hardsuit version is typical RPG wankery, but at least being a thinblood is coherent with being a nobody and living in an unimportant city like Seattle.

It made 0 sense. Diablerie and the presence of thinbloods isn't something the Camarilla puts up with, and it especially doesn't tolerate thinbloods draining full-blooded vampires. Anyone with Auspex can immediately see your aura that screams "WARNING! VAMPIRE CANNIBAL!". The chances of a newly created thinblood pulling all of that off were even lower than the fledgling's chances of survival without Caine's assistance (who at least had the fortune of starting off as a 10th generation vampire), and at the end of the day you still would've ended up with a much weaker bloodsucker than the one you play as in BL1. If HSL wanted you to start off as a social outcast, it would've been better with a Caitiff PC. They could even have the Stoneman operating behind the scenes helping you, just like Caine did in the original.

TCR premise on the other hand is harder to compele from the get-go. Elders don't have an inmediate reason to look for things themselves instead of having someone else do it for them. Add to that the whole why this gal lost her powers, voice in head, looking for the responsible, and talking to the top dogs from the start and you're basically setting yourself for mystery meat and expecting a gourment meal or a dry turd with flies. No in-between.

Characters that lose their power, status and/or resources at the start of the story or just prior have been done a million times before, even in games that aren't sequels or carry over the same protagonist (Scarface, Assassin's Creed 1, BG3, etc). It's also something that already happens to Elder vampires within the setting. Depending on how long you've been in torpor, you'll wake up being weaker for some while, having lost some or even most of your social capital and assets. The only way that can be alleviated is if you have a competent and loyal coterie, childer and/or ghouls that will look after you and your belongings while you sleep. Pyre was a Sherriff in Cairo 100+ years ago and that's not gonna mean much to the vampires in 21st century America. Who even knows if the Prince you served under is still around? He could've been killed or Beckoned to Lybia while you were gone.

 

[Roguey]

I find that hard to believe seeing as he only joined the team during the last year of development. All of the NPCs in the game were voiced, so they would've had to re-record tons of dialogue in a very short amount of time. Maybe it could be true for the NPCs Brian himself voiced like Romero and the news reporter, but the rest? It's doubtful they could've gotten a busy voice actor like Phil LaMarr (who back then was also working on Justice League, Futurama, Static Shock and many other animated shows) to come back at a moment's notice and redo the lines for Skelter, Dennis, Malcolm and Fat Larry.

He joined Troika in 2002, he was on it for two years. He's gone over what the process was https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/interview-without-a-vampire-bloodlines-b-mitsoda

Then I got promoted to designer/writer at Black Isle and worked with a bunch of great people on a game called Black Isle’s TORN (yes, it was all caps – thanks, marketing) which was never released due to some good ideas being married to bad tech. ONE YEAR LATER… joined Troika on Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines.

...

Bloodlines was already into production when I joined Troika. The Half-Life 2 engine wasn’t finished. There was some preliminary design and some levels built, but most of the work that was there was revamped and, for the most part, the design was started from scratch. Quite a few people were new to the company. This basically meant we had to hit the floor sprinting and juggling plates. It was all very exciting, fueled in some part by equal parts enthusiasm/naiveté on my part.

...

The basic plot was kind of there – there’s a new prince in town, there’s a group of anarchs that are pissed, ties to Gehenna event, and Jack and the sarcophagus being a major story point. The designers (about five people) discussed some ways to tie everything into the hubs and levels. With the broader elements agreed upon, we had a lot of control over our sections of the game. Keep in mind, it was a small team doing everything – two writer/designers, one modeler/senior designer, and two owners/producers/designers. With just a few people overseeing every aspect, it doesn’t take as long to reach a consensus or keep plot straight.

Over time, I became primarily tasked with writing the majority of the characters and dialogue, and that helped with consistency. I probably had to argue points a few times, but because of time constraints or faith in my abilities, I was given a lot of freedom with characters and their quests.

The id guys are pretty vocal whenever Tim Willits claims credit for something he wasn't actually involved in, no one from Troika has disputed Mitsoda's version of events.

 

[Harthwain]

Official lore aside (i only know of VtM from the games), but wasn't that basically what happened in VtM Redemption? Of course you're an elder there on a technicality but i think it'd still count as being an elder running around with the youngsters to look for things :-P.

What happened in Redemption was entirely justified though.

First you became a vampire (turned by another notable vampire, by the way) and therefore were seen as a fledgling by others, who knew more about the vampire world (Ecaterina literally call you a "childe", which has a double meaning when it comes to her relationship with Christof). It's a perfect setup to learn about the basics of the setting.

In 1999 (the year 2000 is supposed to be an ominous date for the fate of the world, for obvious reasons) you're technically an elder but the situation is flipped: you know nothing about the modern world and as such it made sense to have younger vampires to accompany you in your search. What made this even better was how Christof could act very old-timey (using "ye olde" manner of speaking, for example). For all its faults, Redemption had top notch atmosphere and phenomenal voice acting (for the most part).

I sincerely doubt Bloodlines 2 will have this level of narrative coherence.

 

[Infinitron]

Judging by what I've read about Still Wakes The Deep, I actually think this game might have serviceable writing. It probably won't have the same style and vibe as the original Bloodlines. TCR seem to care less about trying to achieve that than Hardsuit did.

If I had to predict, I'd guess that the game's major flaws will be: 1) Jankiness and 2) that it'll feel constrained, linear and just not much of an RPG.

 

[S.torch]

It made 0 sense.

Not according to nuWoD's lore. They were turned into their own clan with special traits and powers who fight against the oppression of older vampires instead of being weakling disposable chattel.

Diablerie is the first choice, upon taking the soul of another vampire they join their clan and inch closer to Caine. Removing all Thin-blood traits and characteristics as they become a fully-fledged vampire.

Thin-Bloods, unlike the rest of the clans they do hold a unique trait. Known as Thin-blood Merits and Flaws, they can be curated by the player to pick and choose different advantages and weaknesses unique to only them and create the perfect almost vampire.

Thin-bloods created the art of thin-blood alchemy, granting them the potential to create new and replicate existing Disciplines from vitae and other sources.

Now, I don't care about WoD's lore. Bloodlines 1 wasn't especially lore-friendly either.
But TCR/Paradox seems even more oblivious to the feel of the original with their new protagonist "ancient" vampire who looks like a TikTok influencer. Topped with decisions like sacking Rik Schafer's music, original BL1 composer. If all of this is part of a greater plan to improve the game's immersion, consider me sceptical.

 

[Vincente]

Not according to nuWoD's lore.

He said "it made 0 sense" because diablerie is a big no-no in Camarilla, not because thinbloods are a clan now.

 

[Storyfag]

Bloodlines 1 wasn't especially lore-friendly either.

I don't find much to fault BL1 in that regard. Care to elaborate?

 

[The President]

IIRC the HSL version involved the thin blood committing diablerie against the vampire that sired them because they had a blood hunt called against them. Apparently that is okay with the Cam in that certain circumstance.

 

[Storyfag]

IIRC the HSL version involved the thin blood committing diablerie against the vampire that sired them because they had a blood hunt called against them. Apparently that is okay with the Cam in that certain circumstance.

BL1 =! HSL BL2

 

[Vulpes]

Not according to nuWoD's lore. They were turned into their own clan with special traits and powers who fight against the oppression of older vampires instead of being weakling disposable chattel.

Read my post again, I wasn't talking about their power, but how their existence and diablerie aren't normally tolerated in Camarilla territories, which Seattle is in both the tabletop version and HSL's BL2. Since you're already brining it up, even according to V5 Thinbloods still aren't a clan. They are weak-ass vampire rejects who are so far removed from Cain and the Clan founders that their powers are practically non-existent. They are usually so useless in combat that even an experienced Ghoul can kick their asses, so they have to rely on strength in numbers.

The only thing they all have in common in terms of powers is that they can use Thinblood Alchemy, which is an awful "Discipline" if you can even call it that. It costs way more XP than it's worth to get good at it and is too restricting to use most of the time due to the prep time and requirements. And it's effects? They're just discount versions of the Sorcerer's Path of Alchemy, which is a type of Linear Magic (not to be confused with True Magic that Mages use) that every living and unliving being can learn, so even a normal human has the potential to outclass them. Even if you wanted to disregard what I just said and try use it to its full potential at max level, which is to temporarily copy a Level 4 version of a Discipline, you'll first need the blood of a vampire that can use said Discipline on said level. In other words, you still depend on powerful vampires to get the most out of Thinblood Alchemy. Wanna copy the 4 dot version of Dominate? You'll first need to somehow get the blood of a vampire that can use 4 dot Dominate.

Now, I don't care about WoD's lore. Bloodlines 1 wasn't especially lore-friendly either.

Like what? The only inconsistencies I remember from BL1 is how you were unable to learn Disciplines outside of your clan and how your character was powerful enough to 1v1 a wereshark in direct combat (technically it's 2v1, but Yukie is practically useless during that fight), but not a werewolf.

But TCR/Paradox seems even more oblivious to the feel of the original with their new protagonist "ancient" vampire who looks like a TikTok influencer.

It's been confirmed since the game was first announced that the protagonist will be customizable. That said, it's not uncommon for a vampire to take on a more modern appearance to better fit in whatever social circles they're hanging around. Look at Smiling Jack, he's a middle-aged sailor from the 1600s and yet he dresses like a 1960s biker.

Topped with decisions like sacking Rik Schafer's music, original BL1 composer. If all of this is part of a greater plan to improve the game's immersion, consider me sceptical.

Maybe I've missed something, but I don't think it was ever confirmed that they won't be using any of his music. However, I know this might be a controversial take, I still don't think Rik's soundtrack would've been all that good. He himself admitted that Bloodlines 1 was a lightning in the bottle that he would not be able to recreate. He was in a suicidal headspace back then as a result of being a homeless recovering drug addict that just got out of prison. If you listen to the music in the 2019 gameplay showcase, you'd agree that he might have a point. The only two good tracks in that video were a remix of his old work (the main menu theme) and cut content from the original Bloodlines (the theme for Downtown Seattle's quest hub was originally intended for Downtown LA), while the rest were either incredibly generic (like the combat music) or downright awful (such as the disco music that plays in the club where you meet the Tremere chick)

He joined Troika in 2002, he was on it for two years. He's gone over what the process was https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/interview-without-a-vampire-bloodlines-b-mitsoda

I can't remember the exact video at the moment, but Tim Cain has said before that Mitsoda was brought onto the team by David Mullich when he took control of the project and that was in 2003.

 

[Roguey]

I can't remember the exact video at the moment, but Tim Cain has said before that Mitsoda was brought onto the team by David Mullich when he took control of the project and that was in 2003.

Brian's own linkedin says 2003, so you are correct. However it was a bit longer than a year, this says spring 2003 https://www.gamebanshee.com/news/11...a-chronicle-of-glorious-failure-part-one.html

It also mentions they had practically nothing

Mullich finds a very early stage of development. Few Levels run, just the basic game elements are implemented.

 

[Skinwalker]

IIRC the HSL version involved the thin blood committing diablerie against the vampire that sired them because they had a blood hunt called against them. Apparently that is okay with the Cam in that certain circumstance.

It absolutely fucking isn't. The whole point of the Camarilla is a faux-civilized society that really only exists to protect the elders from those lower on the pyramid. Even if some local prince went insane and okayed diablerie, it would never be allowed by the justicars and the inner circle.

 

[Storyfag]

IIRC the HSL version involved the thin blood committing diablerie against the vampire that sired them because they had a blood hunt called against them. Apparently that is okay with the Cam in that certain circumstance.

It absolutely fucking isn't. The whole point of the Camarilla is a faux-civilized society that really only exists to protect the elders from those lower on the pyramid. Even if some local prince went insane and okayed diablerie, it would never be allowed by the justicars and the inner circle.

The rules are much more fluid than that. Even in the Ivory Tower.

 

[Skinwalker]

IIRC the HSL version involved the thin blood committing diablerie against the vampire that sired them because they had a blood hunt called against them. Apparently that is okay with the Cam in that certain circumstance.

It absolutely fucking isn't. The whole point of the Camarilla is a faux-civilized society that really only exists to protect the elders from those lower on the pyramid. Even if some local prince went insane and okayed diablerie, it would never be allowed by the justicars and the inner circle.

The rules are much more gender-fluid than that.

Maybe in TCR's "bloodlines".

 

[Paul_cz]

Googled Sarah Longthorne (cool name btw). Didn't see any danger hair or pronoun nonsense. On the other hand, her credits are fairly non-existent. It seems the only game of note she worked on is Hogwars Legacy, which afaik didn't have particularly great writing (but I didn't play it myself to judge).

Oh well, we'll see what she comes up with. I will play it for sure, even if it sucks, just for the curiosity's sake.

 

[Vincente]

Even if some local prince went insane and okayed diablerie, it would never be allowed by the justicars and the inner circle.

Wait until you remember what LaCroix intended to do with the antediluvian in the sarcophagus.

 

[Skinwalker]

Even if some local prince went insane and okayed diablerie, it would never be allowed by the justicars and the inner circle.

Wait until you remember what LaCroix intended to do with the antediluvian in the sarcophagus.

Wait until you remember that the Camarilla replaced LaCroix with Strauss the second they got wind of this.

 

[Wesp5]

IIRC the HSL version involved the thin blood committing diablerie against the vampire that sired them because they had a blood hunt called against them.

That is just speculation, it has never been exposed how HSL planned to turn the player thinblood into a full vampire! Maybe they wanted to use some kind of ritual instead which made TCR come up with the idea to use it the other way around to make an elder loose his power. Remember that in the TCR version you have a thinblood in your head already. Just a coincidence?

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

One explanation why TCR"s protagonist looks so modern could be that diablerie went wrong, and the elder assumed control of thinbloods body.