World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 - VTMB sequel from The Chinese Room - coming Fall 2024

[Storyfag]

they trace their lineage back to one of the OG 13, just like everyone else other than the Tremere.

That the tr*mere refuse to trace their lineage to the Eldest does not change the fact that it leads right to it.

 

[Harthwain]

This is a false equivalence. People like fantasy tropes popularized by D&D, but you’d be hard pressed to find many people who can name a specific fantasy setting other than Middle Earth or Westeros.

Again, people like familiarity. You say "DnD" and they will have an idea what to expect. You say "Vampire the Masquerade" and people will know it's about vampires. Brands work like waypoints. It's even better when people like the brands.

D&D isn’t glued to a specific setting like WoD.

So? Since Paradox already has the rights to it, it's no surprise they are going to use them. You will get fans of the tabletop, but you will also attract fans of vampires in general. At least they will check it out if they aren't already aware what it is.

I don’t believe that this obsession with brand recognition is good for art.

Obviously it's not for art. It's just good business.

People might prefer familiarity, but people have tons of stupid psychological biases.

No surprise here. Homo sapiens is mostly homo.

I think beliefs like “you can tell any story in this specific IP that I like” is hugely limiting your creative horizons.

I think it is possible to a degree (vampires in general are more pliable material than you'd think), but you have be mindful of keeping within specific boundaries (the setting, the lore, etc.) and think about how to fit what you want to tell within the IP without breaking it. That said, it's a different kind of creativity from making something entirely different where you are basically free to create whatever you want.

So saying “WoD could totally tell great stories with good writers, so put aside your hate for it stemming from being cyberbullied by lorefags for years” is academic because it’s never gonna happen.

I mean, us being on this forum is in and out of itself academic.

It’s easy to say “Bloodlines is the textbook WoD game” years after it came out, but how many people would think of that premise before it did? I don’t think it’s a textbook example. It doesn’t even have a party like Redemption did. I think people say that because they’re uncreative and can’t imagine anything else. Like how fantasy is stuck in Tolkien’s shadow despite the plethora of works that predate him or weren’t influenced by him.

It less about creativity as more about how human brain works. The reason old people don't like changes is because it is harder for them to learn, compared to young people. It also takes you out of your comfort zone, which compunds the problem when it comes to thinking of something new, introducing it and making it stick. The established brands make it even harder to carve out your own niche. Especially when you have only one shot and it's your "to be or not to be".

 

[RaggleFraggle]

It less about creativity as more about how human brain works. The reason old people don't like changes is because it is harder for them to learn, compared to young people.

Oddly, I’ve noticed the opposite with regard to fandom and I exhibited opposite behavior when I was younger. Maybe it’s just me or the fandoms I frequented.

The established brands make it even harder to carve out your own niche. Especially when you have only one shot and it's your "to be or not to be".

Maybe antitrust laws and copyright law should actually work as intended, rather than strangling creativity.

 

[Harthwain]

Oddly, I’ve noticed the opposite with regard to fandom and I exhibited opposite behavior when I was younger. Maybe it’s just me or the fandoms I frequented.

It also takes you out of your comfort zone

Fans don't like changes, because it upsets the established balance and forces people to re-learn.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Oddly, I’ve noticed the opposite with regard to fandom and I exhibited opposite behavior when I was younger. Maybe it’s just me or the fandoms I frequented.

It also takes you out of your comfort zone

Fans don't like changes, because it upsets the established balance and forces people to re-learn.

They get irrational fast. While certainly changes can be poorly thought or unnecessary, sometimes they can be good or necessary.

I encountered this problem really bad when I discovered a new edition of an rpg released after two decades being out of print (wild story!). The new publisher used a completely new task resolution system, reverted huge swathes of structure back to the first edition written three decades earlier (one supplement was literally a copyedited first edition supplement that was hugely outdated), and generally made a mess of things when the third edition from two decades prior was already sufficient as a foundation. It overshadows whatever genuinely helpful changes were made.

These sorts of idiocies lead me to have a total hateboner for the whole concept of canon.

 

[Vincente]

While certainly changes can be poorly thought or unnecessary, sometimes they can be good or necessary.

Please tell me that you prefer Age of Sigmar over Fantasy so I can safely toss your opinions into the recycle bin.

 

[Delterius]

no one would bat an eye.

pretty much. its how every estabilished setting works. it's not just DMs pushing the envelope, but devs as well.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

While certainly changes can be poorly thought or unnecessary, sometimes they can be good or necessary.

Please tell me that you prefer Age of Sigmar over Fantasy so I can safely toss your opinions into the recycle bin.

I think both can coexist. This whole Sigmar drama could’ve easily been avoided by making it a spin-off rather than going on this whole metaplot binge about the Old World literally blowing up.

Hence why I hate metaplot, edition wars, all that shit that sucks the fun out and turns fandom into a dumpster fire.

To go back to my last example, the icing on the cake was that the new writers literally wrote in the new edition that they thought all the prior editions were abominations. I don’t like certain setting conceits either and make huge changes in my campaigns, but calling a decade of guys writing their passion project an “abomination” is a bit much. Sure, they made shit up as they went and constantly revised their ideas between books. But they at least tried to condense it in subsequent editions and even tried to provide in-universe explanations for the changes. The latest edition is made by people motivated by hatred and arrogance. Which would be fine… if they weren’t shitting on their own customers when their IP is so obscure that they needed to use kickstarter to revive it.

This is why I hate brand names, I hate metaplots, and I hate canon. Even with the best intentions you’re never gonna rival Tolkien so you shouldn’t even try and You should just focus on making something fun. With bad intentions things just get worse and worse.

In my opinion, IPs should end with closure. Constantly reanimating them as zombies has gone nowhere good, and it’s strangled the creativity of the market.

no one would bat an eye.

pretty much. its how every estabilished setting works. it's not just DMs pushing the envelope, but devs as well.

Statements like these betray that you’ve never interacted with the tabletop community. Self-styled Lorefags are everywhere and they will rip you a new asshole over the most asinine trivia. They literally send one of the employees (Jess Henig, dev on Mage 3e) hundreds of death threats for working on a book they didn’t like, to the point he was afraid to open his inbox for years. Those bullies killed my interest in this IP and left scars on my psyche. I won’t go through that shit again.

I envy you, truly. Your wide-eyed innocence reminds me of myself… before life kicked me around like a soccer ball for years. Enjoy your innocence while it lasts, because you will lose it and that pain will be agonizing.

 

[Delterius]

Statements like these betray that you’ve never interacted with the tabletop community.

bro you called stuff that happens in bloodlines impossible and 'ignoring the fucking canon'. i first thought you didn't even play these games (woefully common in this website) but now it seems you've never even seen a table, of any kind, ever. period.

a spectre is haunting ragglefraggle's mind. the ghost of anal retentive lorenerds live there rent free, preventing his nano machine vampires from seeing the light of day.

 

[Semiurge]

In the middle of development Paradox suddenly wanted a different game from what HSL had pitched and what it was building!

Do we know for certain that HSL was building the kind of game they pitched?

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Statements like these betray that you’ve never interacted with the tabletop community.

bro you called stuff that happens in bloodlines 'ignoring the fucking canon'. i first thought you didn't even play these games (woefully common in this website) but now it seems you've never even seen a table, much less a top.

Do you have an actual argument here or do you just want to throw ad hominem?

Going back to what you said earlier… Why should I invest time and effort into recreating limited elements of Shadowrun within WoD when I can just play Shadowrun? Or any other game that better accomplishes what I’m looking for?

a spectre is haunting ragglefraggle's mind. the ghost of anal retentive lorenerds live there rent free, preventing his nano machine vampires from seeing the light of day.

Somebody already wrote it. It’s titled Trinity Blood.

 

[Delterius]

Do you have an actual argument here or do you just want to throw ad hominem?

you've called yourself the 'most well versed in the lore of anyone in this thread' and when i mentioned tremere you lost your fucking mind and told me i was ignoring the canon

when I can just play Shadowrun?

You fool.

You absolute buffoon.

Shadowrun is an estabilished IP. Making a game on it is a rookie mistake. It is detrimental and kills all creativity. It would be like making a vampire game based on Vampire the Masquerade! Madness!!

I can't believe someone in the know such as yourself would advocate for game companies to strangle themselves by making a Shadowrun story set in the Shadowrun universe. You should have known better, my friend. Think of all the Shadowrun nerds sending death threats to the studio, demanding they adhere to the Lore®. Do you want to kill poor Jordan Weissman? What has he done to you??

The fact that you'd even consider playing a Shadowrun game is a warcrime.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Delterius Again, are you actually interested in a discussion here or do you just want to mock me?

 

[Delterius]

Delterius Again, are you actually interested in a discussion here or do you just want to mock me?

Of course I'm mocking you.

Using the brand name appeal of an existing IP is pointless and probably detrimental.

when I can just play Shadowrun?

You want to play Shadowrun, not Bloodlines. That's all there is to you.

Or any other game that better accomplishes what I’m looking for?

It's all about what you want to play right now and every shitty argument you've made is in service of that.

 

[Cricket McBangle]

That's kind of what DuskGolem said. Basically it came down to what Hardsuit was building and what they had planned for the future was something Paradox ended up not wanting and Hardsuit couldn't really make the pivot.

I don't know who DuskGolem is, but that's more or less what the German producer told me too. In the middle of development Paradox suddenly wanted a different game from what HSL had pitched and what it was building! I believe he knew this wasn't going to work out, so he left on his own. I can imagine Mitsoda protesting against the change of direction which is why he and the others were fired soon afterwards. The questions are what this change was about and if the new studio follows it through? I guess we will see once the game is out, and I think the designer leaked his work so it will eventually be clear to everybody comparing the videos from the HSL version with the final one. Also why call it Bloodlines 2 if you were not going to use some nostalgic elements?

He's a game dev/gamer insider cringe guy. Most famous recently for leaking the more recent Silent Hill games. He bragged about his sister working on Bloodlines 2 as one of the Junior Narrative Designers so he says he knows a ton about what happened but won't ever explain. The Juniors were mostly working on DLC and side quests so Mitsoda and Ellison were the ones in charge of what you got in the main game though this is obvious of course.

Seems like when the game changed spec midway in development, maybe that would be around the time Mitsoda would have ignored those and just told his team to stay on course and not worry about what the higher ups wanted? Idk.

 

[Delterius]

I wonder what's the nature of the change. I hope it was project scope and Paradox Cyberpunked themselves into demanding a bigger game than Hardsuit would ever be able to deliver. That would at least mean we're still in the same sub-genre ballpark as Bloodlines.

Kinda hope they didn't suddenly want them to make Amnesia and then hired Chinese Takeout to do it.

Vampire the Masquerade: Prey

Let's hope it is as good as Prey at least, this studio isn't Arkane after all.

you bastard you've doomed us all

 

[Wesp5]

In the middle of development Paradox suddenly wanted a different game from what HSL had pitched and what it was building!

Do we know for certain that HSL was building the kind of game they pitched?

The producer pretty much thought it, and he was there when they pitched. I remember him saying, that they didn't want to start Bloodlines 2 development at the time, but the pitch was so good, they just had to! Also the intro that I saw fit well with Bloodlines and the just leaked videos show that the atmosphere was spot on. If I'm not mistaken, Paradox's CEO changed inbetween and has now changed back again. Maybe this was connected?

 

[Delterius]

i am now picturing a meeting with the paradox ceo where he says 'haf yö played ded by daylight, ya or nej' as the worst case scenario

 

[Wesp5]

I wonder what's the nature of the change. I hope it was project scope and Paradox Cyberpunked themselves into demanding a bigger game than Hardsuit would ever be able to deliver.

Maybe. My own suspicion is that Paradox wanted a political correct game, which Bloodlines never was and Bloodlines 2 shouldn't be! Remember Mitsoda and Ellison talking about all this stuff? I guess we will see if the new one is like Swansong ...

 

[RaggleFraggle]

It's all about what you want to play right now and every shitty argument you've made is in service of that.

So what about what you want to play? It’s pretty obvious that Paradox is never going to deliver any experiences you want to play. You’ve played one licensed game that luckily blew up into a cult classic, read some wiki pages, and constructed expectations in your mind that will never be realized in reality.

Paradox isn’t making games for you or anyone else here. We’re all just vultures here circling a dead man walking. This IP is cursed regardless of how we individually feel about it, so getting emotionally worked up over clashing tastes is pointless.

So I’m sorry for doing that. I’m frustrated that there aren’t fun games, no matter what the IP is. I imagine everyone here feels frustrated.

 

[Infinitron]

I wonder what's the nature of the change. I hope it was project scope and Paradox Cyberpunked themselves into demanding a bigger game than Hardsuit would ever be able to deliver.

Maybe. My own suspicion is that Paradox wanted a political correct game, which Bloodlines never was and Bloodlines 2 shouldn't be! Remember Mitsoda and Ellison talking about all this stuff? I guess we will see if the new one is like Swansong ...

Wesp, I get that these guys were nice to you but between the two parties, Hardsuit were almost certainly more "politically correct" than Paradox - the company that despite its Swedishness, still makes a living selling Deus Vult crusader knight map painting games.

 

[Roguey]

We've hit that point in the thread where conversations repeat again https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...ve-returning-in-september.126124/post-7554651

 

[Delterius]

So what about what you want to play?

i'd be happy with a sequel to bloodlines: a textbook vampire mafia story in the vampire mafia setting.

You’ve played one licensed game

no i've played many licensed games, i'm playing baldurs gate right now

This IP is cursed regardless of how we individually feel about it

i'm sure its a coincidence that you individually feel like you don't want to play a bloodlines sequel and need to post about it on the bloodlines sequel thread

I imagine everyone here feels frustrated.

probably not because the sequel to bloodlines is set in the same universe as bloodlines, thats you bro

 

[Cricket McBangle]

We've hit that point in the thread where conversations repeat again https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/vampire-the-masquerade-–-bloodlines-2-vtmb-sequel-from-paradox-interactive-returning-in-september.126124/post-7554651

 

[RaggleFraggle]

i'm sure its a coincidence that you individually feel like you don't want to play a bloodlines sequel and need to post about it on the bloodlines sequel thread

Oh no, I definitely feel schadenfreude that this IP whose fandumb I had awful experiences with the past is now being driven into the ground and alienating all but the most toxically positive fans.

But as much as I delight in imagining those bullies suffering perpetual fits of apoplexy that they brought on themselves (which isn’t much, I do have other interests in multiple old dead IPs nobody else has heard of), there still aren’t any new fun urban fantasy crpgs. I’m still waiting on AI advancing to the point where I can make a decent looking game in my free time on my skillset unrelated to game design.