Grand Strategy Victoria 3

[fantadomat]

making things more complex

 

[FreeKaner]

UI style is absolutely atrocious, it looks so impersonal and modern corporate. I have no hopes at this point they could make a proper UI stylization that evokes feelings of the era however. Alas there is Victoria 2 still.

 

[Theodora]

The second was when I played Vicky 2 and I saw the literacy rates in America. Somehow New England doesn't start out as the most literate population on Earth. It's like 60% or something and it's the same across all white populations in America. I don't know how much of this was laziness and how much was ideology. Or maybe they just had to cheat so that America doesn't inevitably end up as the world superpower in the end?

Whatever was going on, it really shows that the Paradox model of making everything more and more detailed without doing any research or thinking of the consequences is a terrible way to make a game. It's like Operational Art of War or those old tabletop wargames where you pushed 500 counters around hexes in Russia. In the end it's really just a bunch of abstract math problems that are totally disconnected from the history it's supposed to be tied to.

Vic2 came out in what, 2010? They had very little research capacity back then compared to today. Not saying you're wrong per se, but it seems odd to presume the level of research they were capable back then is the same as today.

Like dgmw, I definitely find it frustrating when there's just a bunch of filler nonsense used to fill in their gaps.

 

[FreeKaner]

If New England is 60% something literacy it starts as one of the most literate places in Earth in Vicky2.

Speaking of research, they have "Janitschars (Reactionary)" leading Ottomans as a party in 1836 start date, Janissaries were abolished in 1826 and Ottoman government at 1836 was anything but reactionary.

 

[Axioms]

Right now my main worry is the same as many, that UI is horrible, bring back the old Vicky UI, at least the template skin.

Other than that I support making things more complex. Blah blah blah abstract blah blah. Like yeah you can't simulate the real world on a consumer cpu, or even a super computer. Even some insane simulationist shit like Songs of the Aeons is still quite abstracted. Rather they make the non-combat systems too complex than too thin.

 

[Theodora]

People romanticise old paradox UIs even though they’re obtuse and needlessly obscurant. Change isn’t always bad.

 

[Delterius]

seems like it might yet benefit of a paintover

 

[Space Satan]

I wonder how naval combat will look because you will start with the knowledge that wooden ships willbe target practice.

 

[Axioms]

People romanticise old paradox UIs even though they’re obtuse and needlessly obscurant. Change isn’t always bad.

There is a difference between the UI theme and the action function. Old Vicky2 UI has an amazing theme. The colors and shapes and stuff. Yes you have to change the content of the UI, but those are separate.

 

[Delterius]

I wonder how naval combat will look because you will start with the knowledge that wooden ships willbe target practice.

if they follow tradition you'll use ships of the line throught the entire game and marine tech will be useless until 1920 when you build a bunch of dreadnoughts for the fun of it

 

[Theodora]

seems like it might yet benefit of a paintover

Do we know which of these is "current"? Would assume the top one, because it's more streamlined.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Uncivs are more like the new Unrecognised Nation: A functioning nation-state, but one that the great powers don't acknowledge as a potential equal. It's possible to become recognised by doing certain things, and example given was Japan beating Russia would promote them to a Recognised Nation.

Decentralised Nations are equivalent to the empty grey space on the V2 map.

Then what is the equivalent of V2's "civilized nation"?

 

[Delterius]

Uncivs are more like the new Unrecognised Nation: A functioning nation-state, but one that the great powers don't acknowledge as a potential equal. It's possible to become recognised by doing certain things, and example given was Japan beating Russia would promote them to a Recognised Nation.

Decentralised Nations are equivalent to the empty grey space on the V2 map.

Then what is the equivalent of V2's "civilized nation"?

its like unrecognised except without the 'uhn'

 

[Space Satan]

There are no current plans for mission or focus trees, as we feel setting down one (or a few) 'correct' paths would detract from the core society builder aspect of the game.
There will be other mechanics to encourage historical nation formations to happen. There are nation forming mechanics, details will come at a later point!

I don't want to go into too much detail on what content we have at this stage but I can say we do have the Ragamuffin War as that was going on at the start of the game.

Like most of our games the historical rulers & heirs can be scripted in history setup but beyond that randomized. Of course you can have events replace them too.

To my best understanding of history, Hungary did not have enough autonomy in 1836 to be accurately represented as a subject state at that time. You could make an argument for it after Austria became A-H but a very crucial part of A-H was Hungarian privileges and ambitions in regards to shared domination over other parts of the empire, so I'm not sure about that either. I'm of course open to changing my mind if there are compelling enough sources on the subject to indicate they should start as a subject. Subjects' GDP and military power gives prestige to overlords in V3, so it shouldn't be a huge issue in terms of keeping Austria a GP (and shared market means they can still access Hungarian goods). I'm skeptical that it makes sense historically, though.

Interest Groups are supported by individuals in Pops rather than whole Pops, so a Pop can lend support to multiple interest groups.

From stream:

• 750 states
• 140 markets at game start
• ~50 goods

Production and consumption arent 1:1.
There are basic economic buildings that extract base resources i.e Farms, Mines etc. which then feed into more complex manufacturing industries. Some basic resources are also consumed like Grain & Fish
Depending on poptype and class consumption can differ. Labourers arent very picky, if you are a coastal country with lots of fishing then that will do. If you have lots of arable land and grow grain than you can feed your population that way instead. But higher classes will demand more and different goods like Cigars and Tea.
As your economy and standard of living grows so does consumption and trends will change and your economy will have to adapt to keep up.
One of the benefit of a fulfilled high standard of living is that pops become more loyal which in returns means less people that may want to start an uprising. The inverse is of course also true.

Infrastructure amongst other things determines how well your goods get from buildings to markets and back. i.e Farms produce Grain and send them to the Market where they are then sent to other Buildings or Pops for consumption, Infrastructure usage accounts for both ways and must be met.
Rivers are an important form of transportation for goods, particularly early. Railways, roads and ports play a larger role as the game progresses. Terrain is also important.
Infrastructure Buildings like railways and ports also employ people and have a cost and consumption.

Markets have a tendency to consolidate into larger blocks i.e the Commonwealth Market.
Markets at first glance give you a summary of supply and demand. Supply and Demand is used to calculate the Price of a good which is the most important value.
Producers benefit from high prices while consumers benefit from low prices and vice versa.

"Every good has a market price based on supply and demand. States with market access due to underdeveloped infrastructure suffer adverse local price. Pricing is everything. Underproduced goods are expensive and make you reliant on imports. Overproduces goods are cheap to buy but unprofitable to make"

For example: If your Industry relies heavily on the consumption of Sulphur and the price increases this can be bad for you, especially if you dont produce Sulphur yourself and are reliant on imports
Gunboat diplomacy and treaty ports can help open up isolationist markets and help facilitate trade.

"Use your trading fleet to import and export goods with alles and rivals alike. Export goods you have a competititve advantage to manufacture. Import resources you lack or manufactured goods your people need. Trade routes can be mutually beneficial or aggressive"


Different States provide and rely on different resources and access differs from state to state.
Oil can only be discovered in very specific states.
If you have an abudance of industry "fuel" i.e Iron, Coal, Oil and dont have the army or alliances to safeguard it you will have a target on your head.
Trade happens through imports and exports from market to market.
Trading can be very beneficial but also make you reliant on others which can have diplomatic repercussions.
For example: If another player or AI nation is specifically focusing on a certain industry/good you could flood the market and undercut them to destabilize their economy.
Nonexhaustive list of Economic Systems: Mercantilism, Free Trade, Agrarianism, Command Economy etc.
You can micromanage your economy but you dont have to.

"Tax your economy in various ways to make money for the treasury. Income Taxes: deducted from Wages paid. Poll Tax: per had. Consumption Taxes: on goods bought. Dividends Taxes: on profits made. Who is taxed how much depends on your Laws"

Privately owned businesses will try to maximize profit.
Wages are directly linked ot the price of the goods produced/available and the profit that the businesses generate.
You [the Government] make money by taxing wages. But how you tax is up to you: progressively, regressively, poll tax, consumption tax etc.
You can tax the consumption of individual goods i.e Cigars, Liquor, Tea etc.
Taxes are established and abolished through Laws. You can abolish Income tax if you so desire.

"Privately owned buildings have full control over their wages and try to maximize their profits. Countries control Gov. and Military Wages which benefit different parts of their society. Government subsidies guarantees a good wage to keep production high"


Conclusion and Notes:
You can micromanage your economy a lot but you dont have to. The first few DDs will focus on the economy.

 

[Axioms]

I wanna manage housing stock, someone get Martin on the line.

 

[fantadomat]

Underproduced goods are expensive and make you reliant on imports

Hard to rely on imports when you rule the world

 

[Demo.Graph]

Wages are directly linked ot the price of the goods produced/available and the profit that the businesses generate.

Haven't they heard about Amazon? Or Marxism? Or basic financial accounting?
Or maybe by "directly" it is implied that more wages = less profits?

 

[fantadomat]

"Janitschars (Reactionary)"

Was just about to mock you about the garbage you were writing...then i read the rest of the post. LoL paracux can't in to google and wikipedia,too much effort needed.LoL they are such a glorious retards buahahahahahaha. You should go on their forum and call them racist or something .

 

[what am i doing]

I wonder how naval combat will look because you will start with the knowledge that wooden ships willbe target practice.

They might be, they might not. Manowar spam was the name of the game in Vicky 2, since they were cheap, didn't cost much naval cap, and could still sink more advanced ships

 

[Theodora]

Apparently they had a discord Q&A with the devs: https://www.reddit.com/r/victoria3/comments/njdhd5/victoria_3_qa_from_the_discord/

Some things that stood out to me:

• 'No mission trees or focus trees as the society building aspect of the game means that we don't want there to be a handful of 'correct' paths to take a nation, there will be mechanics to encourage (but not railroad) historical nation formations though'
• 'Your flag can change to reflect not only your system of government but others factors such who is your overlord, etc.'
• 'Instead of V2 infamy we have Threat, which is more akin to Aggressive Expansion in that it is not global but based on the area where you're threatening, who cares about it, whether you're taking land from a recognized or unrecognized nation, etc.'
• No 'ideas'/'heritages' as per EU4/IR.
• There are formable nations.
• They're considering adding earlier start dates, post-release.
• Example decentralised nations: 'There's the Noongar in Australia, the Nez Perce in the Pacific Northwest, and the Azande along the northern reaches of the Congo, among others.'
  
• 'Deficit spending is meant to be a very valid strategy in V3'.
  
• 'Money gets deposited in your treasury at the end of the week' Economic crashes, and not only due to player mismanagement.
  
• Rivers aren't navigable by your navies. Shipping routes are a feature of the map (blockades, perhaps?).

Question by @Pizza: How will anarchism work?

Answered by @Martin "Wiz" Anward: We don't want to go too much more into detail on this right now but the Anarchism we're aiming to simulate is something akin to a confederation of self-governing communities with extensive local rule and weaker central power

More interesting answers:

Question by @Lazdona: Do you use any history books in your research? Which ones?

Answered by @Ofaloaf: I brought a small library to Stockholm when I moved here, built it up even further after moving here, and I've been referencing so many of them for different things. There's no single book that was referenced more than others. At various times, I've gone through books like Barricades: The War of the Streets in Revolutionary Paris, 1830-1848 by Jill Harsin, The Victorian Econony by François Crouzet, The Baldwin Locomotive Works, 1831-1915 by John Brown, Demanding the Impossible: A History of Anarchism by Peter Marshall, and... gosh, the full list would take up far too much space.

Question by @FiveColor: As a fan of the Revolutions of 1848, are there any plans to model them? Would they be specifically modeled, or would they be the emergent result of the game's other systems? Thank you

Answered by @Mikael Andersson: In general our approach is to model these types of things as emergent mechanics, and revolutions is definitely not going to be driven exclusively by historical events. Having said that, many major historical events will be triggered by the emergent game state but manifest as events or event chains that you'll be able to recognize from history. But historical events might not occur in the same place and time as they did irl.

Question by @InTheZone: will it be possible to stay an absolute monarchy to the end of the game without suffering from major instability

Answered by @Paul "PDJR_Alastorn" Depre: It will have challenges, but if you keep your people happy anything is possible.

Question by @KMO: will the dismantle empire CB make somewhat of a comeback? it was a huge core of the late game great wars

Answered by @Martin "Wiz" Anward: There is a special diplomatic play to cut a highly threatening nation down to size which forces them to give up everything they have recently conquered/subjugated. We might also have some sort of late game wargoal similar to dismantle empire, but not locked down at this point.

Question by @Alexandrian_Codex: When designing 'Decentralized Countries', have you consulted with members/descendants of those communities/cultures?

Answered by @Ofaloaf: Yes, we've made efforts there, and we've already had some very good feedback and ongoing conversations.

Apparently they fucked up the Maori in Leviathan, though they've taken steps to correct -- https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/treatment-of-maori-is-borderline-insulting.1470769/ -- the preemptive approach they're taking with V3 seems a lot better.

Question by @ZeroTrips: How much will we be able to influence the cultural makeup of our empire? Will we be able to select specific accepted culture on top of the primary culture?

Answered by @Mikael Andersson: Primary culture is intrinsically linked to country "tag", while what cultures are discriminated against are based on your Laws in relation to those primary cultures. For example, if your country discriminates on a racial basis, cultures that does not share your primary's Heritage trait is discriminated against, while in a nationally supremacist country all non-primary cultures are discriminated.

First (real) dev diary will be all about pops.

 

[Trithne]

Aotearoa is a weird grey, which is a drab colour that was never used in Maori art and has never been used to represent Maoridom or New Zealand.

And Prussia was yellow.

But really, it's a bunch of swedes making a game about Europeans invading everyone. They wanted the assorted "natives" represented, they get the same poor research everyone that isn't Sweden gets.

Not to mention that making every Tom, Dick, and Kamehameha playable has fucked up the balance in EU4. The "decentralised nation" approach in V3 looks like a good way to tackle it at least.

 

[Jonathan "Zee Nekomimi]

In Victoria you didn't have to paint the map to be a successful state or to have an interesting game, because there were many societal and economical issues to deal with

Except that they're all about Swedish social and economic and political issues. They are not relevant at all to America or Iran or China or even other parts of Europe. It's kind of fascinating to see their perspective on the world, but just as a curiosity.

nothing like exploiting sweden election system to get 1 election a week and consume the entire steamer production of the world late ingame.

 

[fantadomat]

• 'No mission trees or focus trees as the society building aspect of the game means that we don't want there to be a handful of 'correct' paths to take a nation, there will be mechanics to encourage (but not railroad) historical nation formations though'

• 'Your flag can change to reflect not only your system of government but others factors such who is your overlord, etc.'

• 'Instead of V2 infamy we have Threat, which is more akin to Aggressive Expansion in that it is not global but based on the area where you're threatening, who cares about it, whether you're taking land from a recognized or unrecognized nation, etc.'

• No 'ideas'/'heritages' as per EU4/IR.

• There are formable nations.

• They're considering adding earlier start dates, post-release.

• Example decentralised nations: 'There's the Noongar in Australia, the Nez Perce in the Pacific Northwest, and the Azande along the northern reaches of the Congo, among others.'

• 'Deficit spending is meant to be a very valid strategy in V3'.

• 'Money gets deposited in your treasury at the end of the week' Economic crashes, and not only due to player mismanagement.

• Rivers aren't navigable by your navies. Shipping routes are a feature of the map (blockades, perhaps?).

So it will be a sandbox popamole,clear decline. Missions/focus trees were the best thing that could happen to paracux. So it will be another imperator map painter with nothing to do in it. Missions give you a focused and refined experience with certain goals and flavour that makes countries unique.

 

[Theodora]

So it will be a sandbox popamole,clear decline. Missions/focus threes were the best thing that could happen to paracux. So it will be another imperator map painter with nothing to do in it. Missions give you a focused and refined experience with certain goals and flavour that makes countries unique.

I don't see how it could be a map painter, given how much they seemed focused on making war the last way to resolve things (and hence not even discussing it yet). Tbh I'm surprised you of all people think mission trees were that good. It's weird that you'd mention them as a positive while disparaging Imperator, given Imperator has mission trees that are far better than the railroaded implementation in EU4.

 

[fantadomat]

So it will be a sandbox popamole,clear decline. Missions/focus threes were the best thing that could happen to paracux. So it will be another imperator map painter with nothing to do in it. Missions give you a focused and refined experience with certain goals and flavour that makes countries unique.

I don't see how it could be a map painter, given how much they seemed focused on making war the last way to resolve things (and hence not even discussing it yet). Tbh I'm surprised you of all people think mission trees were that good. It's weird that you'd mention them as a positive while disparaging Imperator, given Imperator has mission trees that are far better than the railroaded implementation in EU4.

I argue that mission trees are good,not that paradox can make a good mission tree. But even a bad one is better than no one. Also lol,it is paradox game,nobody plays them for their trade and economic systems,people play them to make glorious empire and purge ethnicities and religions they don't like. Paradox lack the brains and the skills to make a good economical/trade simulator.
Imperator had no missions on release,now like 5 countries have shitty missions. For good missions look at anbennar and kaiserreich,both made by far superior people than anything paradox can offer. For example now i am playing as a lake republic,and they have a unique federal mission tree where every country could do missions from it at the same time,it is very unique experience. While vici3 looks like a boring mibile game with basic mechanics and empty experience.