Grand Strategy Victoria 3

[Silva]

Is it true that política partes are gone from Vic3? It feels weird that such a politically important era lacks those...

 

[Theodora]

Is it true that política partes are gone from Vic3? It feels weird that such a politically important era lacks those...

Not so straightforward. It's more that they want a system that works regardless of where in the world you are. (Vic2's system was anachronistic at the best of times.)

 

[Silva]

I would prefer if they went for a "small strategy" direction and focused on the western world then, as the abstraction that will come trying to accommodate the whole world will probably be shit.

But who knows. Maybe they surprise me.

 

[fantadomat]

Is it true that política partes are gone from Vic3? It feels weird that such a politically important era lacks those...

Not so straightforward. It's more that they want a system that works regardless of where in the world you are. (Vic2's system was anachronistic at the best of times.)

How about....make more than one system and implement the adequate one to the country that used it. To me it looks like dumbing down because joggers in afrca had tribes and shieeeeet lol

 

[Theodora]

Was only saying it's not entirely clear what the state of parties is in Vic3. But no, multiple separate systems doesn't really work either, because it's a transitory situation in most cases, and what a political party looked like was fairly different at the game's end than its start.

Imo you need to have increasing layers of complexity based on the political awareness and development of your society, or you stick with an abstraction like they've done. I would prefer the former by a long shot, but it's not as simple as you make it out to be. (Not at least if historicity and plausible systems are at all what you're wanting out of this.)

 

[Delterius]

Was only saying it's not entirely clear what the state of parties is in Vic3. But no, multiple separate systems doesn't really work either, because it's a transitory situation in most cases, and what a political party looked like was fairly different at the game's end than its start.

Imo you need to have increasing layers of complexity based on the political awareness and development of your society, or you stick with an abstraction like they've done. I would prefer the former by a long shot, but it's not as simple as you make it out to be. (Not at least if historicity and plausible systems are at all what you're wanting out of this.)

Yeah. Even when you focus on Europe you end up in a situation like when Vicky2 has to name early game parties 'the vaguely conservative nobles of the russian empire' or 'the gayass francophiles of the illegal state of greece'. It's not ideal because a lot of Vicky2's political system just projected British parliamentarism everywhere else.

 

[Theodora]

It's not ideal because a lot of Vicky2's political system just projected British parliamentarism everywhere else.

Exactly. I don't get why people think trying to implement some honest representation of non-European lands and societies is some crazed SJW agenda out to contort history, when the 'old way of doing things' is far more blatantly obtuse to history even in most of Europe itself.

(Why do they want their ancestors to larp as Anglos?)

 

[fantadomat]

It's not ideal because a lot of Vicky2's political system just projected British parliamentarism everywhere else.

Exactly. I don't get why people think trying to implement some honest representation of non-European lands and societies is some crazed SJW agenda out to contort history, when the 'old way of doing things' is far more blatantly obtuse to history even in most of Europe itself.

(Why do they want their ancestors to larp as Anglos?)

LoL i said the opposite,that they should come up with different things for different nations. And yeah it is sjw shit because it is paradox,the swedes....

 

[Axioms]

It's not ideal because a lot of Vicky2's political system just projected British parliamentarism everywhere else.

Exactly. I don't get why people think trying to implement some honest representation of non-European lands and societies is some crazed SJW agenda out to contort history, when the 'old way of doing things' is far more blatantly obtuse to history even in most of Europe itself.

(Why do they want their ancestors to larp as Anglos?)

When I was designing politics for axioms I didn't get to a point where the game would generate something vaguely parliamentary like but you could do most other stuff. The only problem is that just as in real life political systems are totally arbitrary so I can't effectively simulate the advance of real world political history without railroading. You could set the possibilities up in such a way that you could get something similar to early US landowning democracy but only because there are so many nations and provinces and characters on a large map. And parties wouldn't be a likely mechanic unless you put it in somehow under the hood.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Rounding up Russian slavophiles and British conservatives as the same thing mechanically just cheapens the political mechanics.

 

[Harthwain]

Isn't map painting in Victoria 2 actually easier than in EUIV? In my experience it seems so.

Map painting is going to be objectively harder in Victoria 2 (even without DLCs) than in EU4, because EU4 is specifically designed for map painting, while in V2 you'll have to get crafty.

 

[Demo.Graph]

Oi, guys, come on. Dox games always were elfland.

Vicky and Vicky 2 had managed to fuck up presentation of European great powers.

Spoiler

Remember late game crashes when money counter overflowed? Because Dox thought it was a good idea to represent gold standard with fiat money printing.
Remember that pops didn't consume cement or wood because they obviously lived in straw-based shithuts? Pops had only capital flows and no capital assets to speak of. Who needs those?
Remember the magical bonuses for US that assured that it would become a superpower on autopilot? It completely ignored that becoming a superpower was a pretty difficult thing to do even in ultra favourable conditions that US had.
Remember the nonexisting serfs in Russia and Austria? And one click based decisions to remove slavery?
Remember the complete lack of GP obligations and the fact that Crimean war, Brothers' war and 1WW had to be conjured via scripts because there were no relevant diplo mechanics in place?
Remember the science? Oh, the science.

CK series are fantasylands as well.

Spoiler

I only played CK2 (still do). I often saw Fraticelli rebellions in Ireland and France from the get go, in the 8 century. Even though they appeared only in 12 century (or was it 13?) when Catholic Church became an opulent corporation and began to lose legitimacy in its core regions. Same goes for, basically, all religions and heresies. They're almost random.
I've recently dug in Irish history because I began playing as one of the small Irish warlords. Dox had managed to mix up grandsons of legendary Irish king (Conall Corc) so that one of the primary branches became secondary (and land ownership and family inheritance became fucked up). Not only that, they skipped some pops from that family tree. And made up several for some reason. And this's in the game that is supposed to be about family trees.
They completely forgot about Munsterian capitol and fucked up the historical name of the country, as well as the counties. They fucked up Welsh holdings as well. Even Wikipedia has all the needed info these days, it's not like it was hidden 10 years ago.
I can go on about several more regions in the game. But why.

EU2 and 3 were blobbers that were never grounded in reality. I never bothered with EU4 mana management.

You discuss the game systems as if they might represent history in a believable way. They never did. They will probably never do.
Dox only pretends they care. If they did, they wouldn't limit themselves to some baby grade all covering encyclopedias and state they know stuff about the corresponding period. But they won't. Because they keep doing the same things. Recall that Maori bullshit from several pages ago. Dox games fuck up their core European countries. Compared to that troubles with some third world barbarians are irrelevant. Dox pretends otherwise.

For the last 15 years I pretend that their games are all about elves killing orcs. If mechanics are fun to play the game is nice. That's it. No historical relevance is required.

 

[fantadomat]

For the last 15 years I pretend that their games are all about elves killing orcs. If mechanics are fun to play the game is nice. That's it. No historical relevance is required.

Yeah,at this point expecting historical accuracy from paracux games is sign of mental degradation.

 

[Catacombs]

This is a pretigious Vicky thread. We don't welcome map painters here.

Game about 19th century imperialism. Named after the ruler of the largest empire in history.

I thought we were talking about a girl...

 

[fantadomat]

This is a pretigious Vicky thread. We don't welcome map painters here.

Game about 19th century imperialism. Named after the ruler of the largest empire in history.

I thought we were talking about a girl...

The funny thing is that the german pigu had nothing to do with the whole thing. All she did was shag some Scotsman and shag a bunch of indian slaves. Also she was the one that pushed for poz by allowing colonial monkeys to become british. She was one of the most useless english rulers.

 

[Silva]

Oi, guys, come on. Dox games always were elfland.

Vicky and Vicky 2 had managed to fuck up presentation of European great powers.

Spoiler

Remember late game crashes when money counter overflowed? Because Dox thought it was a good idea to represent gold standard with fiat money printing.
Remember that pops didn't consume cement or wood because they obviously lived in straw-based shithuts? Pops had only capital flows and no capital assets to speak of. Who needs those?
Remember the magical bonuses for US that assured that it would become a superpower on autopilot? It completely ignored that becoming a superpower was a pretty difficult thing to do even in ultra favourable conditions that US had.
Remember the nonexisting serfs in Russia and Austria? And one click based decisions to remove slavery?
Remember the complete lack of GP obligations and the fact that Crimean war, Brothers' war and 1WW had to be conjured via scripts because there were no relevant diplo mechanics in place?
Remember the science? Oh, the science.

CK series are fantasylands as well.

Spoiler

I only played CK2 (still do). I often saw Fraticelli rebellions in Ireland and France from the get go, in the 8 century. Even though they appeared only in 12 century (or was it 13?) when Catholic Church became an opulent corporation and began to lose legitimacy in its core regions. Same goes for, basically, all religions and heresies. They're almost random.
I've recently dug in Irish history because I began playing as one of the small Irish warlords. Dox had managed to mix up grandsons of legendary Irish king (Conall Corc) so that one of the primary branches became secondary (and land ownership and family inheritance became fucked up). Not only that, they skipped some pops from that family tree. And made up several for some reason. And this's in the game that is supposed to be about family trees.
They completely forgot about Munsterian capitol and fucked up the historical name of the country, as well as the counties. They fucked up Welsh holdings as well. Even Wikipedia has all the needed info these days, it's not like it was hidden 10 years ago.
I can go on about several more regions in the game. But why.

EU2 and 3 were blobbers that were never grounded in reality. I never bothered with EU4 mana management.

You discuss the game systems as if they might represent history in a believable way. They never did. They will probably never do.
Dox only pretends they care. If they did, they wouldn't limit themselves to some baby grade all covering encyclopedias and state they know stuff about the corresponding period. But they won't. Because they keep doing the same things. Recall that Maori bullshit from several pages ago. Dox games fuck up their core European countries. Compared to that troubles with some third world barbarians are irrelevant. Dox pretends otherwise.

For the last 15 years I pretend that their games are all about elves killing orcs. If mechanics are fun to play the game is nice. That's it. No historical relevance is required.

I think nobody here expects perfect simulations of given periods, specially so because these are games in first place, and games must prioritize fun over anything else.

What most are tired of, or at least I am, is dumb map painting trumping all other aspects of the games. For games that self-describe as historic sims, having weaker Tall play than SMAC or CIV 5 is very saying.

 

[Harthwain]

What most are tired of, or at least I am, is dumb map painting trumping all other aspects of the games.

I don't mind map painting as such if said map painting is done well.

The Napoleonic era game comes to mind (see: Napoleon's conquests). You could make it into an interesting wargame, where the main goal is control over the map, with all the possible challenges Napoleon and his contemporaries had to face. Such as logistics (gunpowder!) and terrain, army organization (army composition, tactics, maneuvering), guerrilla warfare and civilian uprisings, the effects of climate...

 

[JarlFrank]

I would prefer if they went for a "small strategy" direction and focused on the western world then, as the abstraction that will come trying to accommodate the whole world will probably be shit.

But who knows. Maybe they surprise me.

Or just, you know

Provide different systems for different culture groups rather than forcibly stuffing the exact same system upon every single nation all over the world, from England to Mexico to Zululand to Japan.

PDX has enough budget and should have enough dev experience to pull that off.

 

[Theodora]

Or just, you know

Provide different systems for different culture groups rather than forcibly stuffing the exact same system upon every single nation all over the world, from England to Mexico to Zululand to Japan.

I mean from what I’ve read they’ve already implied that’s their overall trajectory. Hence eg indigenous American remnants in the west not being playable at the start. They know they’ll need to be completely different to be compelling (or just not plain silly anachronistic), hence it won’t be out at release.

Unfortunately getting a good solution with variety probably involves their DLC game.

 

[fantadomat]

PDX has enough budget and should have enough dev experience to pull that off.

They lack skilful people,they have too many faggots that watch each other's back and try to kick out any threat to their job,or political views. DDRjake is pretty good example of that.

 

[Theodora]

Finally got higher quality screenshots:

 

[Space Satan]

 

[Space Satan]

 

[Theodora]

That terrain art is lovely. I hope they allow such art to take up more space than in previous titles; making more space for art was part of IR's UI rework, and it really makes the game feel that much nicer to spend time on.

 

[Silva]

That map