Game News Video Games And Male Gaze

[GarfunkeL]

Aion was one of the most played MMOs by female gamers, at times quite above 50%, and most Asian MMOs have really high female populations too.

Going to need a source for that. I've never heard of any MMO where female player were even close to reaching parity.

Obviously what you consider "better presentation" isn't representative of what female gamers want, which is what we are discussing. Your opinion on either art style is unimportant to that point.

You completely ignored my experiences from female gamers of western MMOs. Fair enough, we can each stick to our anecdotal evidence and call it a day. *shrug*.

Let me tell you something that you will be one of the few here to understand: Kpop girl bands are ridiculously popular among teen and young adult girls, including those like After School.

And so are boy bands and for people who don't enjoy that stuff there's a massive selection of other artists, many of whom do not sell their music through sex appeal. That's not the situation with games, though.

Why don't you start by stoping to decide you know what most girls see as desirable roles?

Articles such as the OP wouldn't exist if no-one had a problem with how women are portrayed in games. Since such articles DO exist and the same concern has been raised, often enough, before - not to mention that successful Kickstarter for examining this issue, it's pretty obvious to me that enough women feel that there is an actual problem to tackle.

I know far more girls who want to be a pretty distressed princess being rescued by hot guys (which is directly or indirectly the plot of more than half Otome games ever written, since we are at it) than girls wanting to be Lara Croft.

And again we stumble into the anecdotal evidence. My experiences are the opposite.

You still haven't explained just why it would be a problem if there were less fanservice games, though.

WAAA *Girls ar eobjectivied*
yeah, sexist sexual objectivication is a one way street. i mean, women *NEVER* do that.

Welcome to the thread, Pretty Princess. Didn't bother to even skim it? That's the not the actual issue here.

 

[Sukeban Cho]

And again we stumble into the anecdotal evidence. My experiences are the opposite.

I thought we were having a chat, not debating. If you want to get serious, alright.

You claim fanservice is a problem. I say you are misinterpreting the situation and call Probatio Diabolica: The burden of proof is always in the side claiming something exists, so show the evidence that solves the situation beyond the shadow of a doubt or your claim is worthless and thus all the posterior declarations and assumptions from it are baseless. *shrug*

You still haven't explained just why it would be a problem if there were less fanservice games, though.

Why should I? Fanservice is status quo, and you are claiming it should not be. I question your claim. Show me the objective evidence of Fanservice being undesirable and wrong as otherwise there is no need for me to explain anything at all as your entire point is void. What you and some ugly girls feel on the matter is unimportant. *shrug*

And so are boy bands and for people who don't enjoy that stuff there's a massive selection of other artists, many of whom do not sell their music through sex appeal. That's not the situation with games, though.

Fact: There are games that do not sell their gameplay through sex appeal just like there is music that does not sell by means of sex appeal. *shrug*

Whether or not you are satisfied with the selection is unimportant to the discussion.

Going to need a source for that. I've never heard of any MMO where female player were even close to reaching parity.

Because I keep a list of sources of every shit I read just for people who decides to white knight stuff.

You completely ignored my experiences from female gamers of western MMOs. Fair enough, we can each stick to our anecdotal evidence and call it a day. *shrug*.

Your experience does not counters my point: Wow has a very limited character editor and a very small collection of "fashion" items, and thus your experience on it says nothing about whether or not they spend a great deal of effort customizing their characters and acquiring fashion items on games with advanced and detailed character editors that make "fashion" items an important part of the experience.

In other words your answer was "In games with a barebones character editor and little variety of Fashion Items girls do not invest a lot of effort in editing their characters and getting fashion items."

Don't you say, really? Oh, my.

Articles such as the OP wouldn't exist if no-one had a problem with how women are portrayed in games. Since such articles DO exist and the same concern has been raised, often enough, before - not to mention that successful Kickstarter for examining this issue, it's pretty obvious to me that enough women feel that there is an actual problem to tackle.

Define "enough".

 

[mondblut]

I mainly have a problem with female characters like:

Indeed. If you object against this, you DO have a problem.

Now, excuse me while I fap for a bit.

 

[Johannes]

You still haven't explained just why it would be a problem if there were less fanservice games, though.

That can never be a problem unless you're some kind of fascist, wanting to control what kind of entertainment others can enjoy.
What may be a more real issue is that there's not enough games free of blatant fanservice. But I'd say both can coexist just fine.

 

[Stinger]

That can never be a problem unless you're some kind of fascist, wanting to control what kind of entertainment others can enjoy.
What may be a more real issue is that there's not enough games free of blatant fanservice. But I'd say both can coexist just fine.

The issue is that there isn't enough awareness of this. That far too many people, apparently on the codex itself judging by the incredibly dumb responses on here, act like this isn't an issue. Yes it fucking is. Female portrayals in games is really deficient in variety and far too often resorts to cheap pandering to an incredibly juvenile and stupid demographic.

If you acknowledge that dumbing down RPG elements to an incredibly stupid demographic is an issue then you have to acknowledge that dumbing down female portrayals is an issue, even if you yourself don't feel strongly about it.

It's not like anyone here (well most people here I'd assume) is saying that Action RPGs should be willed entirely out of existence and anyone who looks for dumbing down where there isn't any is correctly laughed off as typical skyway edginess but we all agree that RPGs these days are missing a lot of what made them great and a lot of them are becoming far too similar in chasing after a mythical mainstream audience. At the end of the day we are asking for more diversity in the genre and a better representation of our own interests.

In the same way, yes when you are Anita Sarkeesian and you have bullshit arguments that are unfounded and look for sexism where there isn't any you are laughed at and ignored and that's appropriate, but acting like female portrayals in games as they currently are is fine is stupid and narrowminded. It's the same idea of asking for more diversity in the medium and a better representation of females.

There is a real issue underlying all this and it shouldn't just be casually ignored or insulted.

 

[SerratedBiz]

On the worthlessness of arguing over matters of opinion.

Post evidence of your opinion.

Going to need a source for that. I've never heard of any MMO where female player were even close to reaching parity.

Fuck that I don't need sources to state a fact.

 

[FeelTheRads]

It's the same idea of asking for more diversity in the medium and a better representation of females.

There's a problem here, though. I'm interested in the game not whether it titillates some egos or satisfies some agendas.
All these activists crying over portrayals in games are laughable. Just learn that games, movies and so on, whether entertainment or art are not supposed to be a fucking medium to push your agenda. Get the fuck out.

Also, if sexualized women are fan-service, then umm.. normal women are activist-service?

 

[Stinger]

It's the same idea of asking for more diversity in the medium and a better representation of females.

There's a problem here, though. I'm interested in the game not whether it titillates some egos or satisfies some agendas.
All these activists crying over portrayals in games are laughable. Just learn that games, movies and so on, whether entertainment or art are not supposed to be a fucking medium to push your agenda. Get the fuck out.

Also, if sexualized women are fan-service, then umm.. normal women are activist-service?

Yeah and next gen retards aren't playing Skyrim specifically because it's dumbed down but because of various other elements that make them enjoy it but dumbing down of RPGs is still a major issue. Just because you don't feel strongly about the issue doesn't mean the issue isn't there. Unfortunately this argument has been misconstrued into "entitlement" but the underlying point is still very real. Even if you don't feel strongly about bad portrayals of women in media you can't act like it isn't an issue.

This isn't about pushing agendas or rallying political activists or whatever. It's a call for better writing, better characters and just generally more quality put in towards media- there is nothing unreasonable about that and the presence of well written characters, male or female, will not ruin anyone's enjoyment of games.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Unfortunately this argument has been misconstrued into "entitlement"

Well, whose fault is that? Maybe of those that keep pushing it as an agenda? There's a big difference between "a call" and "everything must adhere to our agenda otherwise it's offensive".

 

[Clockwork Knight]

The point is that it wouldn't need to be pushed as an agenda if the issue was more balanced and a simple call would be enough to make their point; however fanservice characters and supporters are the vast majority.

It's like when you ignore a kid tugging on your shirt trying to get your attention. Eventually he'll realize that you won't hear him out unless he gets loud and annoying enough (and then you accuse the kid of being dramatic and spoiled)

 

[Sukeban Cho]

On the worthlessness of arguing over matters of opinion.

Post evidence of your opinion.

Going to need a source for that. I've never heard of any MMO where female player were even close to reaching parity.

Fuck that I don't need sources to state a fact.

You are obviously not too smart.

When I mentioned the earlier thing I was not -debating-, I was just having a chat. Thus no more evidence was needed than was asked of him. When he decided to get serious with all that shit about evidence I abandoned the claim, as I neither said it was true and he had to believe me nor I need to do so to win.

 

[Mrowak]

I will just drop a few lines here:

Let me tell you something that you will be one of the few here to understand: Kpop girl bands are ridiculously popular among teen and young adult girls, including those like After School.

And so are boy bands and for people who don't enjoy that stuff there's a massive selection of other artists, many of whom do not sell their music through sex appeal. That's not the situation with games, though.

Pretty much this.

The problem we are facing is not that there are niche games with appeal to male audience (like Dead or Alive series where 70% of enjoyment comes from marveling at the sights). Neither is there any problem with gamers wanting to have fashionable dresses for their avatars in MMO. The problem lies in things that attempt to be lofty, yet boil everything down to pandering and fanservice like ME series does.

I mean watching movies like Sucker Punch is fun, but having only movies like Sucker Punch to chose from or Sucker Punch to be marketed as the best movie ever and have it receive Oscar awards is just stretching it. It would be the sign that there's something terribly wrong with the film industry (I am not saying there isn't... it's just not that bad).

Which, by extension, means that at least in this respect the condition of the gaming industry is not good enough.

 

[Sukeban Cho]

I mean watching movies like Sucker Punch is fun, but having only movies like Sucker Punch to chose from or Sucker Punch to be marketed as the best movie ever and have it receive Oscar awards is just stretching it. It would be the sign that there's something terribly wrong with the film industry (I am not saying there isn't... it's just not that bad).

Is it now when I ask what makes your opinion better than theirs and then red truth you out of existence?

 

[Mrowak]

I mean watching movies like Sucker Punch is fun, but having only movies like Sucker Punch to chose from or Sucker Punch to be marketed as the best movie ever and have it receive Oscar awards is just stretching it. It would be the sign that there's something terribly wrong with the film industry (I am not saying there isn't... it's just not that bad).

Is it now when I ask what makes your opinion better than theirs and then red truth you out of existence?

There's nothing that can objectively prove that their opinions are better than mine as well. So what now? How do we break this stalmate?

How about: my opinions are better because me and people behind me say so...



And this alone renders all red truths regarding my opinions ineffective... ( :shrug: )

Seriously, though we are not discussing things objectively here - we are discussing it within certain context - media and their influence on lives. We apply sets of values and common denominators and extrapolate what the experience with other sources of entertainment taught us to reach consensus. The fact that one set of things is permissible in one type of media (games) and is shunned at in another (movies, novels) creates dissonance. We (GarfunkeL, I and many other Codexers) are trying to remove this dissonance because we subjectively think it is harmful.

Your turn witch - prove us wrong.

 

[Sukeban Cho]

There's nothing that can objectively prove that their opinions are better than mine as well. So what now? How do we break this stalmate?

Easy.

I never claimed it was.

I only pointed that your entire argument was based on an as of yet unproven assumption, and thus brought doubt upon all which followed from such an assumption.

How about: my opinions are better because me and people behind me say so...



And this alone renders all red truths regarding my opinions ineffective... ( :shrug: )

But I have -more- behind me, that's why you guys are a niche!

... You know, I should try that one some time in a serious enviroment because Witches = Trolls. LOL, MY AD POPULUM IS BIGGER THAN YOURS!

Seriously, though we are not discussing things objectively here - we are discussing it within certain context - media and their influence on lives. We apply sets of values and common denominators and extrapolate what the experience with other sources of entertainment taught us to reach consensus. The fact that one set of things is permissible in one type of media (games) and is shunned at in another (movies, novels) creates dissonance. We (GarfunkeL, I and many other Codexers) are trying to remove this dissonance because we subjectively think it is harmful.

I never questioned your intent, I questioned the means.

The set of values you are applying is obviously not universal, as otherwise the situation itself would not exist. It is implied in your argument then that you assume your worldview is better than theirs, and thus what you just said only matters as long as the assumption your worldview being better than theirs holds water. It is the weakest link in the chain, and thus were you cut through it all.

So I say: The implied assumption that your worldview and values are better than theirs is nothing but baseless, and thus were you went from such a start is of no importance as it was build on assumptions not previously demonstrated.

 

[Spectacle]

I mainly have a problem with female characters like:

Indeed. If you object against this, you DO have a problem.

Now, excuse me while I fap for a bit.

SiN episodes was made 100% better by the Elexis nude patch

I wish we could get some proper porn games, there's only silly flash games, weird Japanese stuff and shitty Oblivion mods.

 

[Mrowak]

There's nothing that can objectively prove that their opinions are better than mine as well. So what now? How do we break this stalmate?

Easy.

I never claimed it was.

That really doesn't solve the conflict. :/

I only pointed that your entire argument was based on an as of yet unproven assumption, and thus brought doubt upon all which followed from such an assumption.

Two questions:

What is your assumption?

What is our assumption (or rather how do you perceive it)?

So I say: The implied assumption that your worldview and values are better than theirs is nothing but baseless, and thus were you went from such a start is of no importance as it was build on assumptions not previously demonstrated.

My thoughts exactly. If we think in absolutes and then go down to MY AD POPULUM IS BIGGER THAN YOURS! everything in the bloody universe is pointless trolling (+1 to Mrowak's enlightenment).

Note here: apart from this little exercise I did not state any absolute truth. For instance, I did not say games with pandering are EVIL. We should purge them with fire. I and many others do enjoy seeing pretty girls in nice outfits doing awesome stuff. The thing is - is that all? There's nothing more? Why can't there be anything more? Must everything come down to that? And this is largely our position.

Again what is your position in this and what basis do you have to support it?

 

[GarfunkeL]

They're just a bunch of grumpy, misogynist trolls! No one should listen to those guys. And therefore we don't have to respond to all those valid criticisms. Gosh we are so clever at spin doctoring.

What valid criticism? Black Cat is the only one who has raised actual points, the rest of the nay-sayers have merely been going with the "I'm going to fap, you're gay, shut up entitled feminist"-bullshit stream. To which you are now contributing.

And again we stumble into the anecdotal evidence. My experiences are the opposite.

I thought we were having a chat, not debating. If you want to get serious, alright.

Everything is a debate, even chats. And no need to get defensive and angry.

You claim fanservice is a problem. I say you are misinterpreting the situation and call Probatio Diabolica: The burden of proof is always in the side claiming something exists, so show the evidence that solves the situation beyond the shadow of a doubt or your claim is worthless and thus all the posterior declarations and assumptions from it are baseless. *shrug*

Fair enough:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games/posts
Would Anita Sarkeesian receive 158,922 dollars from 6,968 backers if no issue existed? I think not.

Then you have articles like these:
http://kotaku.com/5868595/nerds-and-male-privilege
http://www.1up.com/features/getting-the-girl
http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Real-appeal/2005/05/21/1116533572111.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/22786_To_My_Someday_Daughter.html
http://madartlab.com/2011/12/14/fantasy-armor-and-lady-bits/
http://io9.com/5834665/our-new-favorite-tumblr-women-fighters-in-reasonable-armor
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3374/is_8_23/ai_76335062/
http://mmohuts.com/editorials/girls-play-mmorpgs-too

Toby Gard, Lara's creator:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2001/jun/15/artsfeatures.games

Odd as it may seem, Lara has never been a primarily sexual being. In the immature world of videogames, Lara was a revelation on her first appearance. In contrast to the standard, near-pornographic portrayal of helpless women characters, Lara was a veritable Germaine Greer of videogames. Sure, she showed some skin, but her wardrobe was practical, rock-climbing, tomb-raiding stuff: shorts, hiking boots, vest, backpack. Gard says this was a deliberate reaction to the digital representations of women around him at the time, which still persist today: spangly thongs, S&M corsets, strange spirally metal bras. "I wanted to make sure it wasn't the thigh-length boot-style stuff," he says. "You can't get emotionally involved with a character like that because it has been objectified. Lara, I felt, had more dignity."

Then you have more scholarly papers:
http://mediareporttowomen.com/issues/311.htm

That's five minutes in Google. The issue exists.

Why should I? Fanservice is status quo, and you are claiming it should not be. I question your claim. Show me the objective evidence of Fanservice being undesirable and wrong as otherwise there is no need for me to explain anything at all as your entire point is void. What you and some ugly girls feel on the matter is unimportant. *shrug*

While I applaud your utter internalizing of a certain beauty ideal - it's always fantastic when someone has ambitious goals and reaches them - it's apparently getting you too worked up about this - whether the women playing UO and WoW are ugly or not isn't really relevant at all. Neither was I arguing that all fanservice is bad or should be destroyed and I don't remember anyone arguing that in this thread. Merely that it would be fantastic to have a more equal representation of women in games so that fanservicey-characters wouldn't be the majority.

Fact: There are games that do not sell their gameplay through sex appeal just like there is music that does not sell by means of sex appeal. *shrug* Whether or not you are satisfied with the selection is unimportant to the discussion.

But it's not about me. I'm a heterosexual male. I can live with nothing but T&A parade in my games and yes, fanservice has pretty much never impacted in my strategy games (aside from Sengoku Rance) so no problem there. Many mainstream games do sell themselves through sex appeal or then have females entirely constrained in the old cliches of "dead wife/sister". Of course we have games where women have more varied and, arguably, better characterisations, they are just in a minority.

Going to need a source for that. I've never heard of any MMO where female player were even close to reaching parity.

Because I keep a list of sources of every shit I read just for people who decides to white knight stuff.

Again, no need to get so testy. You make an extraordinary claim, you gotta back it up. And having more than half of your playerbase be female should have been big news in every site that focuses on MMOs. Only thing I could find is this BBC Tech article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7796482.stm
Which says that 40% of Everquest II players are female. But it also found that "most hardcore players are female, gamers are healthier than average, and that playing is increasingly a social activity", so I don't know reliable it's supposed to be, as the 2,400 players answered through a website and received an in-game reward.

Define "enough".

Do ugly girls have a say on how their gender is portrayed in video games?

 

[Stinger]

Why do you guys even bother giving Sukeban the time of day?

He flat out ignores any points people say, never backs up any of his claims with actual evidence and continues on with his unfounded arguments that fail to address anything anyone actually says.

Your well reasoned arguments are wasted on this guy.

 

[Sukeban Cho]

Again what is your position in this and what basis do you have to support it?

I kind of expected you knew me well enough already as to understand that by yourself.

Spoiler

I believe there's little to life beyond pleasure and fun: No truth, no knowledge, no morality, no virtue, no quality. Nothing but the satisfaction of arbitrary lusts and the prolongation of existence itself by the sake of nothing but existence and the satisfaction of even more arbitrary lusts. This is one of the most demonstrable assumptions there are as the only thing other than the observer herself that can be demonstrated to exist are the observer's own senses, limited and untrustworthy as they may be, so why not take advantage of them?

To not get carried away in the ebbs and flows of belief, ideology, social trends, marketing, and more one must be able to cut through all arguments in a single stroke so that the mind becomes an inexpugnable fortress no alien idea can enter without explicit permission. This is possible, as I argued before, because all arguments are based on assumptions. That will be obvious for anyone who has been tutored in rethoric or has been part of a debate group: It is impossible for the Devil's Advocate to lose as long as she does not accept certain assumptions as true for the sake of argument itself. In a free debate with no previous assumptions accepted the Devil's Advocate -always- wins. It follows: All arguments come from assumptions, and thus all declarations are worthless as truth.

I am just the devil's advocate, I have no point beyond "The shadow of a doubt remains, LOL, what you say is of no importance."

Thus I debate for the XP I need to level up the fortress protecting my mind from all ideal and conceptual entities other than those I enjoy hanging out with, the simple pleasure of being smarter than other people who can't into logic all the while they actually believe to be smarter than me because I am a kitty cat and I meow meow meow, the cruel enjoyment of knowing I can't lose yet watching them try all the same, and because it is fun to see what new shit people can come up with to justify their baseless beliefs even when you already know there is nothing that can justify it other than assumptions you can cut through in a single stroke.

I -am- a cat after all. Did you expect an answer beyond 'cause it's fun and it feeds my ego?

I also do so because when all is said and done I -am- a servant of the left hand, and little else anymore. And every now and then, like when I argue with you, I actually am trying to show you how completely retarded you are being and how much you are missing on because you are not able to free yourself from the ebbs and flows of belief, ideology, social trends, marketing, and shit. Every thing you don't enjoy because of your baseless beliefs is pleasure you lose based on worthless assumptions, and the experience of pleasure is far more real than all those little ideals you nurture.

As I consider myself your friend is my duty to help you see that.

Stinger

I don't need to back my well reasoned arguments as I have no arguments to begin with, all I am doing is applying basic logic to anything they say and using rethorical devices to show they can't even survive basic scrutiny. To have a point is to have belief, and I have no belief in anything but uncertainty and chaos itself. *shrug*

So I am this debate's Devil's Advocate. My role is not to prove -anything-. My role is to demonstrate the shadow of a doubt remains and thus all their work was for nothing as only "It may be or it may not be, and thus we got nowhere" remains.

If you can't survive a Probatio Diabolica you are not even worthy of me answering you with anything but LOL.

 

[Stinger]

Sorry but that is the most pathetic cop out I have ever seen for someone trying to justify their atrocious shit posting.

Even a 'Devil's Advocate' (I don't think you know what that means) has to justify what they're saying or else they should be rightfully disregarded as a shit poster who has nothing to contribute.

You will never "show they can't even survive basic scrutiny" unless you actually critically analyse what people are saying with reasoned arguments and evidence. That's what scrutiny actually is!

To have a point is to have belief, and I have no belief in anything but uncertainty and chaos itself. *shrug*

Is that supposed to be deep?!

 

[Grunker]

Why do you guys even bother giving Sukeban the time of day?

He flat out ignores any points people say, never backs up any of his claims with actual evidence and continues on with his unfounded arguments that fail to address anything anyone actually says.

Your well reasoned arguments are wasted on this guy.

*girl

Sukeban is Black Cat. Besides that, I mostly agree with you. It's a waste of breath. But for fighting the good fight as always, GarfunkeL.

 

[Sukeban Cho]

Everything is a debate, even chats. And no need to get defensive and angry.

By debate I mean "Formal debate subject to all the pertinent rules." We can chat or we can debate, but I do one to pass time with friends and I do the other to win. *shrug*

If we are going to get technical we go all the way. If we are not going to get technical then we just talk with a light heart and exchange ideas.

That's five minutes in Google. The issue exists.

The issue existing doesn't demonstrate fanservice is a problem, it only demonstrate some people believe it is. There are people in the loon house who believes a lot of thing we do not give a shit about, why should we give a shit about this one?

I asked for demonstration on it being an actual issue, not on what a bunch of people believes in. What makes their belief more important than the belief of all those who don't believe it to be an issue, for example?

If we start discussing from assumptions...

Merely that it would be fantastic to have a more equal representation of women in games so that fanservicey-characters wouldn't be the majority.

I am not discussing that, I am arguing against absolute declarations and against guys who decide to talk for what most girls want based on their own belief of what girls want. I.E: THIS IS A PROBLEM, AND GIRLS FEEL THIS WAY!

I never said it wouldn't be nice to have more variety.

However, I kind of asumed you were with the retarded feminists like Roguey on the issue. If you are not, then I am sorry. My bad: I was arguing like if you were.

Again, no need to get so testy. You make an extraordinary claim, you gotta back it up.

I did not make a claim. I just mentioned something I had read about years ago.

That's the difference between having a chat and a debate. If we are chatting I am not "making claims", I am just talking with you. If we debate then it is chess, and changing the game midway through it and mentioning shit that was not part of the game like if it were is bad form.

Do ugly girls have a say on how their gender is portrayed in video games?

Do they have to have?

 

[Sukeban Cho]

Even a 'Devil's Advocate' (I don't think you know what that means) has to justify what they're saying or else they should be rightfully disregarded as a shit poster who has nothing to contribute.

You will never "show they can't even survive basic scrutiny" unless you actually critically analyse what people are saying with reasoned arguments and evidence. That's what scrutiny actually is!

LOL. Your ignorance on formal debate is amusing.

It is impossible to demonstrate something does not exist, idiot. That's basic logic for you. Thus the Devil's Advocate does not have to -demonstrate- anything beyond "the shadow of a doubt remains", for which I need nothing but to use logic and rethorical devices and maneuvers to question their claims and so called evidence.

So far no one has been able to counter none of the counters I made when actually debating instead of just chatting around. So, Probatio Diabolica: You are free to do so, if you can. Otherwise, LOL.



Also,

During the canonization process of the Roman Catholic Church, the Promoter of the Faith (Latin: promotor fidei), popularly known as the Devil's advocate (Latin: advocatus diaboli), was a canon lawyer appointed by Church authorities to argue against thecanonization of a candidate.[1] It was this person’s job to take a skeptical view of the candidate's character, to look for holes in the evidence, to argue that any miracles attributed to the candidate were fraudulent, and so on. The Devil's advocate opposed God's advocate (Latin: advocatus Dei; also known as the Promoter of the Cause), whose task was to make the argument in favor of canonization. This task is now performed by the Promoter of Justice (promotor iustitiae), who is in charge of examining how accurate is the inquiry on the saintliness of the candidate.

First get an education, then talk back to me.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Look Kitty cat, if you weren't so crazy we could have done fine as friends. But you are not my cup of tea.