Game News Video Games And Male Gaze

[FeelTheRads]

What's wrong with their mouths and why do they have to have their eyes covered?

 

[Stinger]

Roguey: I get what you are saying and I agree that it's pretty problematic. That said the issue I think lies, not with sexism, but with writers who simply cannot into romance.

The real issue is that for many writers, not just Avellone but Bioware etc, Romance seems to be this awfully vulnerable situation where the love interest exposes themselves entirely just for the sake of ego stroking the player. When the player is male and the LIs are female this can be seen as problematic and sexist but the thing is it goes for the opposite as well.

In PST TNO inspires that kind of undying devotion and just generally attracts broken people. Dakkon and Morte are bound entirely to the guy only Morte is snarky about it and with Dakkon it's seen as badass and honourable due to his code. But with Annah and Fall from Grace it becomes problematic because their devotion doesn't just stop at "I'm loyal to you, I would die for you" but keeps on going to love and just a really frail and vulnerable form of that.

You see that in all Biowarian romances as well. But remember that for every FFG or Leliana or Liara who cries "I fell in love with you ever since I met you" there's an Alistair or Carth who is guilty of pretty much the same thing.

Writers don't realise that relationships are a long term commitment of mutual admiration and respect that gradually leads into love that would seem irrational at first sight....unfortunately they ignore the former and just go straight to the latter even though the player character just has to flirt once or twice on their part which is why it seems so problematic.

But again, the fact that male/female PC romances go in that direction as well really suggests that the issue lies with bad romance writing and the inherent ego stroking of the player that comes with it rather than sexism.

The plus side is at least Obsidian hates romances in general.

 

[Roguey]

Grace, Annah, Deionarra, Ravel, and such all "make sense" within the story. I'd venture a guess that you just don't seem to like their portrayal because it "reinforces oppressive patriarchal sex roles" and then ignore the plot of the game, or how male party members of TNO are just as slavishly devoted on account of his curse (Dak'kon and Morte especially) to make some argument about how it's sexist. Hell, when the curse is broken and you talk to all of your party members at the end, I'm pretty sure Annah is ambivalent, treating you just like a teenage girl would a fun fling*, and Grace is only following TNO because he's the holy grail of Sensates; a being who has experienced thousands of lifetimes.

So yeah, curse/story, not sexism.

Dak'kon and Morte have prior history with TNO (he rescued them both from terrible fates, even created a fake religious text for one), there's no such history with Annah or Grace nor is there any explanation as to why Deionarra and Ravel are so obsessed with him other than your vague "magic charisma" explanation. And neither of them fall in love with him either.

*I don't honestly remember. Annah was just a bad character without any of the interesting elements of the rest of the cast.

So you're challenging my interpretation when you don't even remember the details of the story? Wonderful.

I agree with this... but it makes your criticisms of PST even weirder, as the gender flips are already there in the game, as Edward pointed out.

See above, it's not the same.

I also don't why you're so intent on seeing sexism in the PST females.

All right, gonna stop right there. Here are some handy educational links I hope you'll find informative:
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Splaining
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/You're_the_sexist
http://www.socialjusticeleague.net/2011/09/how-to-be-a-fan-of-problematic-things/
Going to quote a particularly relevant paragraph from the last one:

Thirdly you must acknowledge other, even less favourable, interpretations of the media you like. Sometimes you still enjoy a movie or book because you read a certain, potentially problematic scene in a certain way – but others read it entirely differently, and found it more problematic. For example, consider the scene in Game of Thrones where Drogo rapes Dany (which he does not do in the books). One of my friends feels that it was portrayed like rape fetish porn, sexualising the act and Dany’s pain. But I feel that the scene focuses on Dany’s pain and tears in a manner that is not fetishising them (though even so the narrative is still totally fucked up because Dany and her rapist then go on to have a good, sexyfuntimes relationship…uh, no, HBO). I don’t agree with my friend’s interpretation but I recognise it as a totally valid reading of the scene.

Oh, and in regards to Annah's outfit, I was reminded of something I had forgotten about when reading an article from another person who thought Torment was sexist:

Annah-of-the-Shadows: Sexy, Scottish, sassy, and sexy, Annah is the first female who joins your party. She thanks you by giving you one kiss in the entire game. Voiced by a Scottish pop star.

"Actually, I'm Scottish, but nobody gives a shit because I'm dressed like this."​

​

​

Not only was that an official wallpaper, it was an in-game model too. You could download it and she'd look like that in-game. The male equivalent? Morte colored like an easter egg. And you're telling me to believe that the people who commissioned, made, and released that were respecting women when they couldn't even get the damn VA's nationality right.​

 

[Sceptic]

See above, it's not the same.

Sorry, don't buy it. If anything that's a point against your argument: the women follow him just because and then get attached to him, while the men are useless to begin with and need rescuing. Clearly sexist actually... just not in the way you're presenting it.

Thirdly you must acknowledge other, even less favourable, interpretations of the media you like.

Bullshit. If the interpretation looks to me like it's coming completely out of the blue, then I will challenge it. Just like I will challenge claims that the original ME3 ending is deep and philosophical. Just because someone somewhere thinks otherwise doesn't mean I'm supposed to automatically acknowledge that they're not talking out of their ass.
(not saying you are, but you know what I mean)

And you're telling me to believe that the people who commissioned, made, and released that were respecting women when they couldn't even get the damn VA's nationality right.

Wait, did you just manage to turn what could be but isn't even a nationality/ethnicity issue into sexism?

 

[Roguey]

Clearly sexist actually... just not in the way you're presenting it.

What about the meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen
And then you take a single sentence from that article and argue against it out of context and shrug off demeaning fan-service. Fuck off.

 

[FeelTheRads]

And neither of them fall in love with him either.

So... from a feminist point of view if Morte would fall in love with TNO it would be OK for Annah to do it, otherwise no? This is why Bioware has alien romances.

when they couldn't even get the damn VA's nationality right.

What? Who? Where?

Also, I respect women because I'm very interested in their nationality. The more exotic the better.

 

[Sceptic]

What about the meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen
And then you take a single sentence from that article and argue against it out of context and shrug off demeaning fan-service. Fuck off.

Hey, you're the one who brought up sexism to begin with, insists it's there, quote me some bullshit about how someone else's opinion is always valid, then go all feminazi if I point out the opposite interpretation is, by your own logic, just as easily justified.

Also, if you don't want me to specifically focus on one sentence, don't bold it.

What? Who? Where?

Sheena Easton is Scottish. Annah in leprechaun costume is Irish. The mixup of the two countries is conclusive proof that the game is sexist.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Sheena Easton is Scottish. Annah in leprechaun costume is Irish. The mixup of the two countries is conclusive proof that the game is sexist.

Ah. It's even more retarded than I thought. Because a Scot MUST play only Scottish characters.

Take a joke, misunderstand it, call if official so it looks like the whole game is revolved around it and then scream about how sexist the game is. What's not to love about feminism?

 

[almondblight]

But again, the fact that male/female PC romances go in that direction as well really suggests that the issue lies with bad romance writing and the inherent ego stroking of the player that comes with it rather than sexism.

Pretty much. A lot of it just reflects their poor writing skills. I was pretty surprised when I first saw the "I love you" options appear out of nowhere. It'd be like saying "hi" to the barrista at the cafe a few times and then telling her that you love her. More crazy or completely socially inept than anything. I thought Deinnara (when she herself spoke) was believable enough, though. Plenty of people get obsessed with people who treat them badly. The sensate stone with her memory was pretty terribly written.

Dakk'on wasn't written well either. "Well, you saved me, I'm going to pledge to be your slave for the rest of your life"!?

 

[circ]

Sheena Easton is Scottish. Annah in leprechaun costume is Irish. The mixup of the two countries is conclusive proof that the game is sexist.

Ah. It's even more retarded than I thought. Because a Scot MUST play only Scottish characters.

That sounds kind of sexist in itself.

It's a terrible thing that women and what have you were oppressed for millennia, but a revealing costume is always just a costume. Is Annah some dumbass woman with no personality that everyone abuses and so on? I don't think so. It's nice to whine about outfits all the time and then think Chippendales is empowerment. Come on.

 

[Volourn]

Meh. Women treat men as sex objects ALL THE TIME. In games, movies, tv shows, everything. Why do you think a movie series like Twilight is so popular with the gals? Just go read any soap opera message board - majority of posters are slobbering over the male actors while trahsing the females and males that don't meet their make believe physical standards.

This idea tyhat only men are perverts is beyond being a retarted myth.

How about that 'Magic Mike' movie or whatever the fuck it's called. LMFAO

 

[almondblight]

Well, this is also the kind of BS you guys get when you want videogames to be looked at as art, along with cutscenes every 5 minutes and forced drama. If gamers were smart they would have embraced Ebert.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Still ashamed of how so many people brought up Bioware games as "evidence" that video games ARE art in the comments section of that Ebert column. Talking about low standards.

 

[Black]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlvMAS_20K4

 

[circ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlvMAS_20K4

Thanks for the link to an unshitty youtube philosoraptor.

 

[Pelvis Knot]

Dakk'on wasn't written well either. "Well, you saved me, I'm going to pledge to be your slave for the rest of your life"!?

Humans tend to live 70ish years, while Githyanki/Githzerai are immortal iirc. He didn't know TNO is immortal too, so from his point of view it was a fair return for being saved. You can apologize in the game because Practical Incarnation was a dick when he accepted his offer.

 

[Roguey]

feminazi

Fuck off again.

Also, if you don't want me to specifically focus on one sentence, don't bold it.

I didn't bold it, it was a cut and paste. Of course you wouldn't actually visit the links, because you have no intention of ever changing your mind. "Well, it doesn't offend me and I like it so it can't be sexist. I'm an expert on these things. Stop overreacting, feminazi"-- Misogynists everywhere.

Sheena Easton is Scottish. Annah in leprechaun costume is Irish. The mixup of the two countries is conclusive proof that the game is sexist.

a) It's a shitty outfit that doesn't fit the setting or the character and only exists to titillate losers who get off on 3D models resembling women ie you guys.
b) It's disrespectful to Sheena Easton for suggesting that Irish and Scottish people are interchangeable.

 

[Kane]

whose alt are you roguey?

 

[sgc_meltdown]

people brought up Bioware games as "evidence" that video games ARE art in the comments section of that Ebert column

films are art because the character-driven weird science tv series emotionally engaged me with vanessa angel's compelling portrayal of a digital genie

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Roguey is a typical part of the thoughtless idiot mob. She complains about sexism in games while she discriminates a game developer and refuses to buy his games solely because he "dared" to not remove his secondary sexual characteristics as it's against her sacred religion of fashion.
If she'd be a catholic, she'd probably be a gay-beating skinhead.

 

[FeelTheRads]

a) It's a shitty outfit that doesn't fit the setting or the character and only exists to titillate losers who get off on 3D models resembling women ie you guys.
b) It's disrespectful to Sheena Easton for suggesting that Irish and Scottish people are interchangeable.

Are you fucking insane? Seriously?

It was a joke made for fucking St. Patrick's Day (you know the one with leprechauns) as the one with Morte was for Easter. There is no disrespect, no mistake. It's simply dressing up a character FOR A HOLIDAY.

Fucking Christ, the level of stupidity. Nobody dare make a character voiced by someone a different nationality than that someone! Not that Annah was actually Irish or that model was supposed to be part of the game, but you're probably too stupid to understand that.

 

[Kosmonaut]

Roguey went full retard when he started stalking Lesifoere. Maybe too much exposure to her blog made him the feminazi retard that he is now.

 

[Kosmonaut]

Or maybe he's just an alt of hers? Discuss!!!

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Dak'kon and Morte have prior history with TNO (he rescued them both from terrible fates, even created a fake religious text for one), there's no such history with Annah or Grace

So? Because the women characters happen to be the "new" members of the crew, their reasons for following TNO are somehow sexist in nature? Would it really have been better to you if Grace and Dak'kon swapped pasts? Probably not, you'd just be kvetching even more about how the game is sexist because it shows that women owe men servitude if men help them. But that's why most writers don't give two shits about feminists or their PC-ilk; because pandering to all of their differing views of what is adequately "tolerant" or "inclusive" would be impossible or result in a game with more TRIGGER WARNINGS!!!!!1111000one!!!!zzz than Vista had User Access Control prompts.

Anyway, Grace is interested in him as a Sensate. Annah jumps on the risen corpse she sold to the Dustmen who happen to kill her adoptive "father"/pimp because she's not all there. Both have motivations, they both make enough sense.

nor is there any explanation as to why Deionarra and Ravel are so obsessed with him other than your vague "magic charisma" explanation.

Deionarra was obsessed with TNO because the Practical Incarnation pretended to be in love with her solely to use her as an anchor in the Fortress. And Ravel was obsessed with him because she created his curse and viewed him as one of her finest works. Mentioning how the Mark of Torment drew in other tormented souls (the "magic charisma") was mostly about Annah and Grace (and probably how the Practical Incarnation really hooked Deionarra), and also the way that the writers justified the undying loyalty of all the companions that has/had become a gameplay staple of the genre. It's writer's fiat and a little bit of commentary on genre conventions (you'd need an incredibly powerful curse to make sense of a gameplay convention taken for granted).

And neither of them fall in love with him either.

Ravel and TNO had a borderline Oedipal thing going on and Deionarra did love "him".

So you're challenging my interpretation when you don't even remember the details of the story? Wonderful.

Not sure if this was supposed to be a masterstroke or whatever, but it's petty as all hell, and this sort of snarky bullshit is pretty much angle-shooting seeing as I'm sure neither of us has encyclopaedic knowledge of Torment and games aren't as, shall we say, reference-friendly as books. I might not have had one detail exactly right, and I decided to admit that. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but cut the cheap shit.

 

[almondblight]

Humans tend to live 70ish years, while Githyanki/Githzerai are immortal iirc. He didn't know TNO is immortal too, so from his point of view it was a fair return for being saved. You can apologize in the game because Practical Incarnation was a dick when he accepted his offer.

"I'll only be enslaved for 30 years or so..." Sorry, doesn't seem to fit, especially with the huge taboo against slavery in his culture. I get that Dak'kon was broken emotionally and physically when he was found. And I get that that makes him follow TNO around like a puppy. But the reaction of a race that abhors being enslaved being "hey, I want to thank you, can I be your slave?" doesn't work.

Fucking Christ, the level of stupidity. Nobody dare make a character voiced by someone a different nationality than that someone! Not that Annah was actually Irish or that model was supposed to be part of the game, but you're probably too stupid to understand that.

They obviously mixed up Irish and Scottish. It's not a huge deal since it's not connected to the game, but it's silly to defend it.