Review Vince D. Weller Does Fallout: New Vegas

[denizsi]

Dammit, here we go again. I'm not sure why but I was hoping for NV to turn out good, even after the AP fiasco and now this. This better not be a DAO v2! The only reason I'm falling for it again is because you make it sound like it's competition material for average Codex top 10.

 

[Derper]

This will easily reach twenty pages.

 

[MasPingon]

The Kings sounded silly at first when I read about them, but they ended up being pretty well written, and an interesting faction.

You see, that's why I won't play that game, anymore than I will watch shows like "Lost". I'm too scared of the way it changes formerly perfectly rational people...

But you are not rational here, just stupid. Sorry

 

[SimpleComplexity]

VD will review his own game.

Mark my words.

 

[Vault Dweller]

A thing that we have to ask ourselves is: if Fallout 3 never happened, would NV be considered that good?

NV is good not because FO3 is bad. It's good because "the faction interplay and (sometimes) quest design are done better than I've seen in almost any game I can name."

Some quests and dialogues are good all right, but we're still talking about Oblivion/FO3's shitty engine here, how is gameplay now a mere detail to be discarded away because half a dozen of dialogues are well written?

What's gameplay in an RPG if not quests? What's the engine gotta do with gameplay? Sure, we all have our preferences and I too would prefer games that are isometric and turn-based, but that doesn't mean that games that aren't are shit by default.

Shady Sands -> NCR transformation doesn't really make sense. It's explained with GECK. But where was GECK in Fallout is? Why wasn't it used back then? And where would it come from?

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/GECK

"The GECK isn't really a replicator. It contains a fertilizer system, with a variety of food seeds, soil supplements, and chemicals that could fertilize arid wasteland (and possibly selected sections of the moon's surface pre-conditioned to accept the GECK) into supporting farming. "

The above makes sense and it's a handy kit to make sure that people would be able to grow things fast and successfully and supply them with the right seeds and knowledge. It's a logical step leading toward establishing viable farming communities not high-tech towns and republics.

Seen for a very remote point of view (I didn't play Fallout 3 or NV) this "FNV effect" is very very strange.

I remember long and heated discusions, on NMA or here, about Fallout 2. How the gameplay was good but locations like New Reno and Frisco made no sense. Almost everyone agreed on the good or at least average quest design and the roleplaying validity of both but damn... Casinos and mob families ? Kung fu fighting ? Functioning nuclear submarine ? Scientologists ? No way GTFO my Fallout...

Years pass and now the (apparently) same people agree on NV's (or rather Fallout 3's engine) flawed gameplay, good or at least average quest design and how damn... Roman soldiers ? Space suits ? A gang of Elvis lookalikes ? Functioning Hoover Dam ? Totally belong in Fallout....

Perfect symmetry. It's rather scary in an "Invasion of the body snatchers" way.

Space suit again? A pre-war space program is logical and fitting. Space programs tend to come with space suits. The design of both rockets and suits fits the 50s sci-fi. There are no people running around in space suits and breaking your immersion. There are very radioactive locations which give you a reason to use the space suit. Where is the problem?

Overall, the NV setting is a LOT more consistent and logical than the Fallout 2 setting, which is probably the main reason people don't complain as much.

Is it really so hard for you to imagine that some people can find tribals and romans just as silly ? I mean, really ?

Well, let's talk about it. First, the Roman system was fairly popular, so there was a high chance that books describing their military system would survive. The system is perfect for a PA society - you have a lot of capable bodies, but 0 discipline and low ability to fight together. The Roman armor (segmentata) is fairly easy to manufacture, especially in a post-apocalyptic environment. Basically, it's just a bunch of stripes, leather or metal. I think it's much easier to string several overlapping leather stripes together than make a proper leather armor.

All you need is a good opportunity to start the boll rolling and I think that Obsidian did a good job presenting it. You have a disillusioned but educated man who didn't like the NCR form of government and sees it as an effort to bring back the pre-war America. Being captured by a tribe gives him an opportunity to shape the tribals into a fighting force (and when it comes to it, what's better than the Roman model?), the NCR shows him the way (recreating a past society), and being raised among books gives him the necessary knowledge.

Prewar buildings are there. Whats the point in wasting materials building a new building if you can just refurbish the pre-war ones? It doesn't indicate anything about the state of society other than they aren't happily wasting their resources.

They don't build anything. They just live in ruins. The ruins should, of course, be the starting point as they provide the shelter, building materials, things to scavenge, etc, but at some point people should start re-building and turn the ruins into proper towns, growing out of the old ones.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

Prewar buildings are there. Whats the point in wasting materials building a new building if you can just refurbish the pre-war ones? It doesn't indicate anything about the state of society other than they aren't happily wasting their resources.

They don't build anything. They just live in ruins. The ruins should, of course, be the starting point as they provide the shelter, building materials, things to scavenge, etc, but at some point people should start re-building and turn the ruins into proper towns, growing out of the old ones.

I felt it made sense that noone was expending time and effort to build nice buildings in the middle of a war zone. New Vegas has decent looking buildings, the shithole just outside is crumbling to pieces because its a lawless town of beggers and thieves, and everywhere else noone is going to make a new building when they could be forced to move any day if the NCR or Legion comes.

Presumably the peaceful lands of the NCR have rebuilt buildings. Hell, the Legion could have recreated roman architecture and have coliseums and aquaducts and shit back in the lands they firmly control, remember that we are only really seeing the tip of the invading army.

 

[Rhalle]

Good review. Clear, easy reading and accurate.

Glad the stupid karma-- kill them OK, steal their tin can NOT OK-- system was called out.

Not sure I could let "Caesar's Legion" get a pass, though. It's implemented well enough, but it's just too capricious.

And, yeah, that virtually every quest is well thought-out and fleshed-out is clearly the game's major strength, and it arguably overrides all the technical shortcomings.

 

[laclongquan]

Why reinventing the wheels when the wastelands are littered with ancient ruins? Let alone lots of designs, blue prints, books, images, miniature figures of architecture. The Legion could build better than ancient ROman style.

But I think Roman is a misnomer. I think Caesar is a cunning old bastard who use the good ol fame of Roman to disguise his model. His legions are built more like Spartan slaveowner army than yeoman-centric infantry-heavy Roman legions.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Is it really so hard for you to imagine that some people can find tribals and romans just as silly ? I mean, really ?

Well, let's talk about it. First, the Roman system was fairly popular, so there was a high chance that books describing their military system would survive. The system is perfect for a PA society - you have a lot of capable bodies, but 0 discipline and low ability to fight together. The Roman armor (segmentata) is fairly easy to manufacture, especially in a post-apocalyptic environment. Basically, it's just a bunch of stripes, leather or metal. I think it's much easier to string several overlapping leather stripes together than make a proper leather armor.

All you need is a good opportunity to start the boll rolling and I think that Obsidian did a good job presenting it. You have a disillusioned but educated man who didn't like the NCR form of government and sees it as an effort to bring back the pre-war America. Being captured by a tribe gives him an opportunity to shape the tribals into a fighting force (and when it comes to it, what's better than the Roman model?), the NCR shows him the way (recreating a past society), and being raised among books gives him the necessary knowledge.

A simple "yes" would have been faster and would actually have answered my question.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

The above makes sense and it's a handy kit to make sure that people would be able to grow things fast and successfully and supply them with the right seeds and knowledge. It's a logical step leading toward establishing viable farming communities not high-tech towns and republics.

If M.C.A. really knows what GECK was. It could as well be a survival kit sold to individual families. When technology level is high enough to have Power Armour that works for 100 years without need for refuelling and power fields, then replicators aren't far away.

I agree that GECK doesn't make sense as a justification of high-tech town like NCR.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

Not sure I could let "Caesar's Legion" get a pass, though. It's implemented well enough, but it's just too capricious.

Agreed. I like Caesar himself - he was actually one of the more sympathetic characters in the game - but the Legion was just over-the-top and, well, retarded. Even if he did admit he was just fucking with a bunch of idiots, it didn't really inspire me towards a Legion playthrough, especially given that half the game's quests come from the NCR compared to what doesn't seem to be many from the Legion.

 

[Brother None]

Screw Caesar's Legion. Yes, they can be explained rationally. I don't think that means they fit into Fallout's setting per se, nor that it was a good idea to begin with. The core idea of a slaver legion makes little sense as a force opposing NCR (it's too evil and bland), and to then dress them up in a foreign identity would work if it was a foreign identity adapted from the setting (like something honoring the Chinese army or hell, even the Master), and not something arbitrary and random like the Roman Empire. The only motivation for picking them is "because I think they're cool" (thanks Sawyer), and that was exactly the same bullshit Bethesda kept throwing at us for "developer motivations".

Some quests and dialogues are good all right, but we're still talking about Oblivion/FO3's shitty engine here, how is gameplay now a mere detail to be discarded away because half a dozen of dialogues are well written?

What's gameplay in an RPG if not quests? What's the engine gotta do with gameplay? Sure, we all have our preferences and I too would prefer games that are isometric and turn-based, but that doesn't mean that games that aren't are shit by default.

Quests are gameplay but gameplay is not just quests. The shitty engine and the way Obsidian designs badly around its shortcomings leaves you with a lot of time exploring the badly designed world and location maps, let alone that the combat just isn't good, and you noted as much in your review. Those are limitations of the engine, not to mention of how little Obsidian does to work around its flaws (compare it to Bloodlines, which is hardly on an ideal RPG engine, but fits it like a glove).

There's the improved shooting, sure, but to offset it VATS is still there and more useless, the game is way too easy, and exploration sucks balls. That's a lot of bad gameplay design.

Space suit again? A pre-war space program is logical and fitting. Space programs tend to come with space suits. The design of both rockets and suits fits the 50s sci-fi. There are no people running around in space suits and breaking your immersion. There are very radioactive locations which give you a reason to use the space suit. Where is the problem?

Overall, the NV setting is a LOT more consistent and logical than the Fallout 2 setting, which is probably the main reason people don't complain as much.

This.

Though the Come Fly with Me sequence gets a bit lulzy with its whole Bright Brotherhood referring to Nightkin as demons, the whole skull-worshipping from the Night kin and the like. It toes the line fairly well but it's probably one of my least favorite setting/writing-wise from New Vegas. The visual design of the spacesuits and rockets is good, though.

Most of the overly lulzy shit like the Pimp Boy or aliens are hidden behind Wild Wasteland, and that was a good call. It protects the designers from themselves, this game is definitely more consistent than Fallout 2 or Fallout 3. But still has its share of problems.

 

[UserNamer]

I really liked vd's review, because it voiced exactly how I feel about the game.

The easiness of most combat encounter (with the legion, especially) is the major flaw of this game.

I want to add a few things that are thread and lore related.

Regarding NCR: Caesar in nv says that NCR has been for the most part a de facto dictatorship by tandi. So that might explain the democracy thing. Caesar also says that ncr worked so well until now because it was a dictatorship, and that it started having problems after tandi's death and is not transitioning well into a democracy.

The flamboyantness and weirdness of the Legion are part of the post apoc setting. Just think about the humungous in Mad Max 2 or the raiders in fist of the motherfucking star. They convey how things can get weird after civilization collapses, as it degrade into tribalism. Caesar's explanation for the roman identity makes perfect sense.

Same for the tribals. They could have been originated by young people who survived their parents, and that with no better guidance formed tribes. The vault dweller could have met them before founding arroyo. Maybe they were nomadic, he liked their peaceful way of life and decided to settle somewhere, fed up with technology or something like that.

 

[Brother None]

Regarding NCR: Caesar in nv says that NCR has been for the most part a de facto dictatorship by tandi. So that might explain the democracy thing. Caesar also says that ncr worked so well until now because it was a dictatorship, and that it started having problems after tandi's death and is not transitioning well into a democracy.

Caesar gives me such a fucking headache (lulz). Not just with his weak take of Hegelian dialectics (seriously dude), but this too.

He explains that NCR was a joke of a democracy because its leader was too popular to be opposed, which, y'know, is one of the ways democracies can function, because if she does too much wrong her popularity would collapse. It's not a de facto dictatorship because Tandi did not have only her cronies in the Council, nor did she control the flow of information within the NCR, as we saw in Fallout 2. She just kept getting elected because she was really good at her job. The two-term rule might be a staple of presidential democracies now, but it's not an inherent demand on democratic functioning.

Then when it's finally opened up and democratic by Caesar's arbitrary bullshit definition of democracy, he suddenly complains about that too, even though he just criticized NCR for being farcical about it, and explains it's their weakness without really explaining how or why. True, you can think up many reasons why its functioning as a democracy is paperthin, from infighting to regional powerbases being built by barons to powerful individuals corrupting the system to it simply being overstretched geographically, but the game doesn't really provide them, it just says it's weak, ha-ha!

This is some extremely thin writing.

The flamboyantness and weirdness of the Legion are part of the post apoc setting.

And that would be enough if this were a new, generic post apocalyptic setting. It's not. Not every trop of post apocalypse works on Fallout by default.

 

[Relay]

@VD

SOME of the things Caesar said I could understand but to mimic the roman down to wielding machete (instead of gladius) and throwing spears ? And that's what makes the NCR cower in fear ? An army of men in skirts toying with sharp metals ?
What the fuck is up with people like Legate Lanius wielding a stupid sword coming right out of Final Fantasy 7 which is a game Christ Avellone fancies a lot ? No i'm sorry but if you don't find this retarded then there is no salvation for you, you're beyond redemption, your soul just can't be saved. Legate Lanius is not a super mutant. He's not a drug-addicted Fiend. He's a fucking regular human being with a sword. Hacking at people with guns. The final boss.

The setting is so cringe worthy that it could never make it in my top 10 EVEN if it had the best combat and gameplay mechanics ever. It just isn't likable and none of it has much internal consistency.

You see, the Legion could make sense in a world where guns and ammo are rare but they're so abundant in the world of Fallout even a debt-ridden drug addict can own one if he fancies violence as a problem solver. THE FUCKING FIENDS HAD TON OF ENERGY WEAPONS FFS ! They're drug-addicted raiders living in complete anarchy. Drugging themselves to death (you can see fiends who died in their sleep in their vault).

Maybe they were nomadic, he liked their peaceful way of life and decided to settle somewhere, fed up with technology or something like that.

Come on. Just because you're fed up with technology doesn't mean you suddenly believe in spirits and dress yourself like a monkey with bones as decoration. Even worse, Hakunin speaks in your dreams.

 

[Rhalle]

The flamboyantness and weirdness of the Legion are part of the post apoc setting. Just think about the humungous in Mad Max 2 or the raiders in fist of the motherfucking star. They convey how things can get weird after civilization collapses, as it degrade into tribalism. Caesar's explanation for the roman identity makes perfect sense.

Maybe if they were more rag-tag.

They're too by-the-book Romans, with the exception of a motorcycle helmet now and then. The crucifiction stuff is clearly for shock value. Maybe if they appeared more inspired in some weirdo too-many-rads way instead of an almost rote copy of the real thing.

And I can't help but feel like they are an odd sort of fan-service, in the sense that movies like 300 and Gladiator and whatnot have been popular recently, and that's ultimately why they appear in the game.

 

[UserNamer]

Come on. Just because you're fed up with technology doesn't mean you suddenly believe in spirits and dress yourself like a monkey with bones as decoration. Even worse, Hakunin speaks in your dreams.

maybe he met a nomadic tribe that already believed in spirits. Psychic powers are stupid, but they were present in fallout 1 already.

 

[Relay]

Come on. Just because you're fed up with technology doesn't mean you suddenly believe in spirits and dress yourself like a monkey with bones as decoration. Even worse, Hakunin speaks in your dreams.

maybe he met a nomadic tribe that already believed in spirits. Psychic powers are stupid, but they were present in fallout 1 already.

FO1 didn't go full retard though. There is no way to escape the stupidity of the people who made the setting in FO2, there is nothing I could say I like in that game, from the beginning in the tribal village to the end with Frank Horrigan, an end boss who had no real purpose besides screaming "Hey look at me I'm so badass".

You know, people complained about the super mutant behemoths in FO3 but Frank Horrigan wasn't any less retarded. I don't see FO3 as being worse than FO2 when it comes to the setting, though it is MUCH worse when it comes to combat and gameplay.

 

[Ausir]

The only motivation for picking them is "because I think they're cool" (thanks Sawyer),

Well, Sawyer did put them in FNV, but it was MCA who originally created them for Van Buren. Not that it changes much, just saying.

Most of the overly lulzy shit like the Pimp Boy or aliens are hidden behind Wild Wasteland, and that was a good call.

Actually, the Pimp-Boy is not Wild Wasteland-specific.

 

[Lockkaliber]

Dammit, here we go again. I'm not sure why but I was hoping for NV to turn out good, even after the AP fiasco and now this. This better not be a DAO v2! The only reason I'm falling for it again is because you make it sound like it's competition material for average Codex top 10.

If it matters at all, I think you and I had the same problems with DA and VD's review, and I really liked New Vegas.

 

[Brother None]

Well, Sawyer did put them in FNV, but it was MCA who originally created them for Van Buren. Not that it changes much, just saying.

Then they both suck.

I thought the original idea was from Sawyer's PnP sessions?

EDIT: looking back through NMA's archives I find him Briosa quoting Sawyer on putting the Legion on Fallout 3 and 4, but I now recall they were indeed from MCA's PnP sessions.

So they both suck.

Actually, the Pimp-Boy is not Wild Wasteland-specific.

Surely you jest.

 

[SharkClub]

Actually, the Pimp-Boy is not Wild Wasteland-specific.

Either way, I haven't found it in any of my playthroughs and I'm not about to go looking for how to get it. So it must be a pretty obscure reward for something.

 

[Brother None]

It's not, I think most people ran into Mick & Ralph and learned about their problems with Gomorrah, but it's an unmarked quest so easy to forget about it. It bugged out for me so I never got the Pimp Boy.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Screw Caesar's Legion. Yes, they can be explained rationally. I don't think that means they fit into Fallout's setting per se, nor that it was a good idea to begin with. The core idea of a slaver legion makes little sense as a force opposing NCR (it's too evil and bland), and to then dress them up in a foreign identity would work if it was a foreign identity adapted from the setting (like something honoring the Chinese army or hell, even the Master), and not something arbitrary and random like the Roman Empire.

Fallout was about exploring how people deal with the fact that their world had gone ka-boom and exploring the new societies. From this point of view, the Legion fits the bill and the setting perfectly. The Legion is one of the legitimate answer to the "now what?" question.

Much like the Master, Caesar thinks that the unity is the answer, but he goes about achieving it in a different way, which is what makes it interesting.

The only motivation for picking them is "because I think they're cool" (thanks Sawyer), and that was exactly the same bullshit Bethesda kept throwing at us for "developer motivations".

I disagree. We have 3 parts in the conflict: the NCR - an attempt to resurrect the pre-war America with all its flaws, the Strip - organized crime and gambling, and the Legion. The Legion is the only "let's do shit differently" faction, the only faction that wants to build a different society.

From the Ausir's wiki:

"In his view, the NCR does not have a long-term solution to the problems of the Wasteland - the bombs had reset humanity's progress and he believed the time had come to rebuild it into something new. By seizing New Vegas Caesar felt that he would finally be able to elevate his Legion into a legitimate nation by giving it its own "Rome" - transforming them from a nomadic army into a true empire; a militaristic, patriarchal, imperialist, autocratic, culturally homogenous empire whose ruler holds undisputed power - a "Pax Romana" which would prevent humanity from ever fracturing itself again."

^ that's a pretty good reason to join. When you enter Nipton and see that the Legion's violence isn't random but aimed at certain elements (and even the NCR agrees that "Nipton was a shithole that deserved to be burned" - the problem was that the NCR wasn't willing to do the job and Nipton continued to exist spreading its influence, until the Legion showed up), that's a pretty good reason at least to consider if you're on the right side.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

IIRC the Legion was invented by M.C.A. because he's a big fan of classical period history.