Review Vince D. Weller Does Fallout: New Vegas

[Ausir]

Well, I consider quest design to be a fndamental part of RPGs, more so than combat.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

And I can't help but feel like they are an odd sort of fan-service, in the sense that movies like 300 and Gladiator and whatnot have been popular recently, and that's ultimately why they appear in the game.

Screw Caesar's Legion. Yes, they can be explained rationally.

Fallout was about exploring how people deal with the fact that their world had gone ka-boom and exploring the new societies. From this point of view, the Legion fits the bill and the setting perfectly

Has it been considered in these serious discussions that roman clad soldiers have been patrolling Vegas since decades ? There :

Because that's honestly the first thing I thought of.

 

[Morkar Left]

Good review. I can fully agree with it.

About "the legion is silly" topic:

First, there are several examples in history where people in "skirts" and "machetes" beat the shit out of more advanced civilizations. Even the romans got their asses beaten

Let's not forget that the Legion has a very hard survival of the fittest culture going on to the point where they refuse to take drugs/narcotics when wounded. And that's the main point about their medicine; they don't use narcotics. If they had proper docs instead of the medicinmen from their old tribal culture they would use them. Caesar even used the doc-robot-thing for his troops (but it's broken).

And it is well explained why Caesar enforces the roman culture to the tribals. He wants to eradicate their old culture completely to unify them. One nation, one believe, one culture. It's not about adaption. It's take it or die. And he can enforces it because he is successful with it. Think about Hitler and the 3rd Reich. Or just join the army and enjoy their brainwashing bullshit.
And keep in mind that all of his followers think it is completely his idea. They don't even know about an old ancient culture and that they just copypaste it. They think they are original.
But Caesars knows of course that he just copypaste. His own doctrine is pragmatism. He isn't a very creative men but he knows well how to adapt (like Benny btw...)

And about the tribal theme in F2; just google some pics from the love parade, emos, gothics, biker etc. and you will see that we already have a lot of tribal influences in our culture. It doesn't really matter if its a metalstick or bone that is sticking in your nose.

 

[Ausir]

And that's the main point about their medicine; they don't use narcotics.

Stimpaks are not narcotics. If anything, the healing powder is.

And keep in mind that all of his followers think it is completely his idea. They don't even know about an old ancient culture and that they just copypaste it.

Not sure about that. It was this way in the design docs (as quoted in the official guide), where he had anyone who claimed that he was only copying ideas from ancient books killed, but in the game itself, he talks to you about his ancient Roman inspirations pretty openly in front of his men.

 

[Brother None]

But they're also masters of all types of weaponry, persuasion, stealing, sneaking, hand to hand combat, agile, strong, handsome, perceptive mega-machines who somehow take on battles that are completely impossible if any realism is applied.

That's fascinating, bro, but you're still using stuff that was implemented for game reasons as explanations for setting questions. Shit don't work that way. If your logic actually worked, we could dismiss any implausible and illogical thing people throw in the game because hey the PC's superpowers don't make sense so nothing has to make sense. Get outta here with that shit.

Has it been considered in these serious discussions that roman clad soldiers have been patrolling Vegas since decades ?

The legion isn't from Vegas. I did consider that excuse, but the game doesn't use it, and even if it did, it's pretty thin.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Which is stupid since we all know why the mask wearing meanie goes full retard on you : because someone at Obsidian had to throw a reference to some obscure piece of obscure yellow culture.

If by "obscure", you mean "massively successful franchise", then ok

 

[Morkar Left]

And that's the main point about their medicine; they don't use narcotics.

Stimpaks are not narcotics. If anything, the healing powder is.

It's hard to define as what an instant-heal magicitem would count in the real world. It's a bit wonky here because gameplaymechanics get in the way. It negates wounds in an instant (at least in default not hardcoremode). Healing powder heals you over time like food. I assumed they count just everything with an injectionneedle as some kind of drug per default. But yeah, it is halfassed.

And keep in mind that all of his followers think it is completely his idea. They don't even know about an old ancient culture and that they just copypaste it.

Not sure about that. It was this way in the design docs (as quoted in the official guide), where he had anyone who claimed that he was only copying ideas from ancient books killed, but in the game itself, he talks to you about his ancient Roman inspirations pretty openly in front of his men.

I assume that the few in his inner circle know that it is a hoax but it doesn't matter because they are already loyal to him. And they were maybe intelligent enough to not question it in the first place. I think that is what worries him; someone questions him and his decisions/ideals/culture. He doesn't really care if some people know from where he has his ideas as long as they don't question it and are loyal to him. It's more about the unwashed masses

 

[Needles]

Ceasar's Legion is cool

Actually it's silly

Walls of rationalization

The real question is: why not let them be inspired by Romans, but with a bit more nuance?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Oh yeah, let's use gameist logic to explain the setting, because that really works in RPGs.

I am rolling my eyes at you, Reconity.

Which is stupid since we all know why the mask wearing meanie goes full retard on you : because someone at Obsidian had to throw a reference to some obscure piece of obscure yellow culture.

Bumper Sword vs Buster Sword.

Trying way too fucking hard.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

The legion isn't from Vegas. I did consider that excuse, but the game doesn't use it, and even if it did, it's pretty thin.

I wasn't actually suggesting this as a possble origin of the in game legion, rather as a possible origin of the "let's put romans in" idea.

 

[Havoc]

The whole discussion boils down to:
It doesn't fit my Fallout!

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I'm not trying to justify what, in the end, will boil down to the proverbial "matter of opinion"

Colour me surprised.

 

[Havoc]

I'm not trying to justify what, in the end, will boil down to the proverbial "matter of opinion"

Colour me surprised.

Yo dawg! I herd you like quoting! So we put a quote in your quote, so u can qoute while you quote!

 

[Clockwork Knight]

The whole discussion boils down to:
It doesn't fit my Fallout!

It fits any discussion involving the Fallout fanbase, really

Maybe we could divide it into factions. Grimdarks vs. Lulzters. Glowing Ones vs. Laughing Boys. Motormouths vs Eye Gougers.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Wearing a uniform designed to look like a long-dead culture isn't the same as just wearing a generic uniform for the sake of unity.

If you want to have one, you have to make it. As I pointed above the stripes armor, especially if it's based on the football gear, is relatively easy to make. It's probably the easiest armor to make as it requires very little metal and leather working.

a) because borrowing an identity is about externalizing as much as about internalizing. Founding a nation means adopting an identity that not only can your own men relate to, but that others grow to fear. A long-dead, forgotten civilization is probably your worst option here.

I hope we can agree that whether or not others will grow to fear you depends less on your identity and more on your own actions. The Legion is about replacing the tribals' identity and social structure/customs with a new one, which, as an approach, makes a lot of sense. Here you have two options: make your own shit up, which may fail simply because it's untested and could be poorly thought through, or go with something that worked and worked very well under somewhat similar circumstances.

b) many people throughout history have had the same thought, and borrowed from Romans. You'll notice how none of them felt like co-opting every single bit of Roman identity...

You'll notice that the world continued to develop, slowly making the Roman model obsolete, and the conditions under which the Roman model thrived were never repeated. ... Until now.

c) you're still answering my question about a design choice by pointing to the videogame's explanations for plausibility. Those aren't the same things.

I agree with the explanation. It's fairly well presented, imo.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

But they're also masters of all types of weaponry, persuasion, stealing, sneaking, hand to hand combat, agile, strong, handsome, perceptive mega-machines who somehow take on battles that are completely impossible if any realism is applied.

That's fascinating, bro, but you're still using stuff that was implemented for game reasons as explanations for setting questions. Shit don't work that way. If your logic actually worked, we could dismiss any implausible and illogical thing people throw in the game because hey the PC's superpowers don't make sense so nothing has to make sense.

The PC in Fallout doesn't have superpowers in game. He just gets to kill tons of people/critters and does stuff that other people are too busy to do which gives him more XP = skill points.
I think there are some characters comparable to PC level-wise - for example Kane and Gabriel.
Actually there are many enemy humans that have illegal stats - there are some raiders and others with ST 9 and PE 10 and EN 8 and CH 8 and IN 6 and AG 8 and LK 6. Which means that they have more HP hit stronger in melee and can aim from a longer distance and get higher sequence and have more AP and beter AC and have a slightly above average critical hit chance. Now, that's a superpowered character. Oh, I forgot to mention that they have a numerical advantage...

The main reason why PC does better is simply because he goes to places where other don't go. For example going to the Vault 15 results in getting following equipment:
Leather Jacket, Hunting Rifle, 10mm SMG, lots of ammo, 2 grenades, TnT, 4 stimpaks, medikit and 8 flares. It's a lot of useful stuff.
Both Hunting Rifle and 10mm SMG gives the PC an edge over the raiders who don't have automatic weapons and rifles.
Also, the TnT can be used to solve the Shady Sand's radscorpion problem.

 

[Twinkle]

Actually it's silly

Well, fuck, it is. It's FO2's and ToddH's school of game design "Look guise Romans were p. cool. Let's add them to our game. Do they fit the setting? Who cares - it's our setting, we can do what we want." Not only the whole premise - larping bandits versus organized armed forces is retarded. Riflemen grunts, snipers, rangers and heavies in PA have tremendous advantage over melee-focused larpers in any open battle. Now what if the Legion used advanced tactics to compensate? No, they cannot into tactics as the whole Boulder City trap proves. What else? Huge numbers according to Kaizar's claims? Well, you see way more NCR troopers during the game. But the biggest flaw lies in the fact that actual game failed to present them as a menacing, unstoppable force that the writers claim it to be. In FO1 and 2, muties and Enclave troopers were considerably tougher than an average mook. NV's average "Legionnaire" is a throwaway mob inferior even to a raider. The Legion vs the NCR conflict ends up being awkward and silly.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The conversation with Caesar. I skipped a lot of parts, including the "Hegelian dialectics" (worth reading), to save space:

* * * SPOILERS (IF YOU GIVE A FUCK) * * *

 

[hiver]

Sounds good to me.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Not only the whole premise - larping bandits versus organized armed forces is retarded.

Uniform and sense of identity - larping now? There are plenty of historical examples, from Spartacus to Lenin & Co, where "larping bandits" did well against organized armed forces in open (i.e. not guerrilla) battles.

Not to mention that the assumption that the Legion is an unorganized force is incorrect.

Riflemen grunts, snipers, rangers and heavies in PA have tremendous advantage over melee-focused larpers in any open battle.

Like talking to a wall. The Legion has plenty of guns. The Legion is seeking energy weapons (the Van Graff final quest). Just because they have adapted the Roman model doesn't mean they don't have guns. They have fucking Howitzers in their main camp.

 

[Davaris]

Actually it's silly

Well, fuck, it is. It's FO2's and ToddH's school of game design "Look guise Romans were p. cool. Let's add them to our game. Do they fit the setting? Who cares - it's our setting, we can do what we want."

I haven't played it yet, but I was hoping they'd have an Egyptian army complete with Deathclaw drawn chariots, with a mega base at the Luxor hotel. They could have hired Byron Williams from Mars Attacks, to do the voice for the leader of the Egyptians.

It would have been awesome. Maybe they will put it in the sequel.

 

[Twinkle]

Uniform and sense of identity

Ah, all you need is the sense of identity - not functionality or quality protection. That's in the world where your opponents wear Power Armor.

Spartacus

And how long did he last? And, more importantly, how did his rebellion end?

Lenin & Co

By the time Lenin and Co took the reins the organized army had been already crippled and demoralized by the losses in WW1, the real government didn't exist plus he had support from a major part of war-capable populace - workers and peasants. And they've managed to build their own *organized* army - even without cool uniforms at first. It could only happen in revolutionary situation - something that doesn't apply to Mojave at all.

All of the above is pure offtopic though, because, in Fallout world the Legion already fought the NCR and failed.

The Legion has plenty of guns.

So? Cheapass shotguns and hunting rifles totally equal anti-material rifles, miniguns and highly trained snipers?

Besides, the elite guard - Praetorians are trained in HtH combat. They don't even have rifles or pistols as backup weapons.

The Legion is seeking energy weapons (the Van Graff final quest)

And failed.

They have fucking Howitzers in their main camp.

And some of them don't even work without PC's assistance.

they adapted the Roman model

That's the problem - they didn't. Just because you wear crimson tunic, crucify random people and speak Kaizar instead of Caesar you won't become a soldier worthy of true Roman legacy. Romans were famous for winning battles against enemies vastly superior in numbers. The "Legion" is only good at crushing and enslaving primitive tribes and gets their asses handed to them in the first serious battle. They are a band of slaver savages, nothing more.

 

[Kz3r0]

Most Legionaries I've seen were armed with good pistols (took my first magnum from a Legionary), rifles, and SMGs.

They weren't as well equipped as the NCR rangers though, and the strongest Legionaries were more often than not users of melee and unarmed. Caesar himself, who is quite strong, is using his fists. FFS.

Are you talking about unarmed-citical-hits-ken-shiro-style Fallout perchanche?

 

[Brother None]

The real question is: why not let them be inspired by Romans, but with a bit more nuance?

You know, all these words and excuses in, I still don't see anyone answer this one.

The Brotherhood of Steel is a "monastic" order, with "paladins" and "knights" and "scribes". That's cool. It works because they adapted a bit of identity, but fell short of trying to run their lives according to the Code of Chivalry, calling each other "ser" and swinging big swords around. The Khans (until New Vegas) adopted the nomadic lifestyle and used skulls on poles to intimidate people, but didn't refer to their leader as Khan (there's no Garl Khan, but of course there's a Papa Khan), live exclusively in tents eating yak meat, or wear their beards in mongol cuts. It's not hard to do it right if you're subtle about it. The legion has all the subtlety of a half-brick to the face.

If you want to have one, you have to make it.

So make it. Design it. Don't put feathers on your head though.

I hope we can agree that whether or not others will grow to fear you depends less on your identity and more on your own actions.

Yes. That doesn't mean randomly picking an identity is the best idea. There are identities that are "inherently" scary, like the Jackals or Fiends use. There are identities that are scary because of memories people still have, like the Enclave or Chinese Army. Romans? Romans have no advantage as an image whatsoever. They're also really foreign in their sexism and banning of narcotics, and considering their leader has all the charisma of my left foot, it's odd that the game never explains why it actually functions as an integration tool for tribes.

You'll notice that the world continued to develop, slowly making the Roman model obsolete, and the conditions under which the Roman model thrived were never repeated. ... Until now.

Yeah, not really. The wastes are still dominated by guys with guns, deathclaws and robots, none of whom I'd like to fight toe-to-toe. The Legion pacified a bunch of tribals out in Arizona, well whoop-di-dooo, great success, those guys were somehow so incompetent that all one tribe needed was the war knowhow of some library-educated guy to kill all the others. But their only strength throughout New Vegas is either considerable superior numbers or dirty warfare.

Your argument here is valid for Fallout 1, which is why I mentioned that a few times and which I guess is the state Arizona was still in. Huge slaver legions with weird experimental ideals about their identity fit into a fresh post-apocalypse where communities exist by themselves and no one has been making a serious attempt at rebuilding. The West Coast in the Fallout setting already passed that point, and the Legion comes in as a huge anachronism for the setting, much like Fallout 3's Commonwealth seems like a hard-to-believe jump forward setting wise.

I agree with the explanation. It's fairly well presented, imo.

*taps mike* Is this thing on? Hello? I'm still not getting an answer on "why Romans", am I? Not from a plausibility viewpoint, not as in "there's a bunch of ingame explanations". Say we're sitting in a design meeting for Fallout: New Vegas. Someone suggests we make one faction dress up and act as Romans. I ask him "why?" Not "why would a faction choose to dress up like Romans", but "why, out of all options available, including doing this Roman legion thing in a more subtle way, are we going with this option?"

And his answer is...

...?

Where's Ropekid when you need him?

The conversation with Caesar. I skipped a lot of parts, including the "Hegelian dialectics" (worth reading)

That dialogue is one of the worst bits of New Vegas. My mouth was agape at the hammy writing and terrible delivery, and I was really disappointed to find a character that was built up throughout the game be so thoroughly unimpressive. It didn't help that I was a Legion enemy and trolled him throughout the conversation and all he did was sit there and grunt threats before handing me the chip. Good job.

His ideas on Hegelian dialectics and historical inevitability would've been perfectly fine amongst naive philosophy students in the 1910s-1920s, you can't just plunk the idea into the Fallout and pretend it functions. All it implies is that he has absolutely no idea or real plan as to what the future holds, and is just making up shit as he goes along waiting for the "historically inevitably synthesis". What a load of crap.

Let's not even mention that bit on "democracy", where he keeps contradicting himself, and offers no real explanation on why NCR is no longer functioning other than "it has people accepting bribes". Oh no, accepting bribes! Surely the alternative of being run by slave-driving psychopaths is much more attractive.

Fffffffffffff

Lenin & Co

I'm sorry? Lenin?!

There are plenty of historical examples, from Spartacus to Lenin & Co, where "larping bandits" did well against organized armed forces in open (i.e. not guerrilla) battles.

And yet, there's more historical examples of high-tech forces wiping their ass with primitives, superior numbers or no. The Legion faced only tribals and raiders so far. They are obviously incapable of facing a real army, and the only thing that gives them a shot is their superiority in numbers.

All of the above is pure offtopic though, because, in Fallout world the Legion already fought the NCR and failed.

Albeit under very specific circumstances (a relatively inept leader of the Legion against a tactically gifted NCR officer). Who knows what would have happened without the Courier...well, actually, I do know, Benny or House would've got to the robot army, and exterminated the Legion easily with them. coz y'know, it's pretty clear the Legion doesn't have a shot once the robots are on.

Considering the respect with which Caesar treats the bunker ("Yeah I'll just send in this guy I don't know or like down there and trust he blew it up, instead of doing it myself, or sending people in with him, or sending in people to check"), once the Platinum Chip is in play (ie, before the game starts), the Legion is doomed, unless the Courier comes in to bail out their asses.

Good thing too

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

You see, that's why I won't play that game

Dude, I know...it's fuckin' crazy, right? You have so much to lose. So much is at stake!