Review Vince D. Weller Does Fallout: New Vegas

[cardtrick]

Great review of an awesome game. It's the first RPG I've actually finished in quite a while. Anyone on the fence should definitely give it a try -- and stick with it until you're out of the (boring) starting town. That's my only real criticism of the game -- it had a very weak beginning, especially compared to Fallout 1, which had one of the best beginnings of all time (that little line of text about seeing the sun for the first time give me chills, man).

 

[Vault Dweller]

Uniform and sense of identity

Ah, all you need is the sense of identity - not functionality or quality protection. That's in the world where your opponents wear Power Armor.

Yeah, let's pretend that the Legion is machete-wielding savages charging Power Armored NCR troopers armed with energy weapons.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/NCR_armor

The armor consists of a khaki tunic with bellowed hip pocket and khaki britches, worn with a desert facewrap and hardened leather pauldrons, black leather fingerless gloves, arm wraps, brown boots and khaki puttees. A metal breastplate with the emblem of the NCR painted on is worn in combat, attached to two leather straps on the pauldrons. The breastplate itself appears to be questionable as useful armor. While it could probably stop a melee attack or a bullet, a high caliber one such as the Legion 12.7 would easily go through it.

Hard to believe, I know.

Spartacus

And how long did he last? And, more importantly, how did his rebellion end?

He was kicking ass for 2 years and then was betrayed pirates who promised to transport his army. He was cornered and cut off from supplies.

By the time Lenin and Co took the reins the organized army had been already crippled and demoralized by the losses in WW1...

The point is that a loosely organized group of soldiers and workers has managed to seize power in a huge country and defeat several armies, including the White army and the Polish army. Not bad for larpers, eh?

The Legion has plenty of guns.

So? Cheapass shotguns and hunting rifles totally equal anti-material rifles, miniguns and highly trained snipers?

Did you see the NCR camps?

Besides, the elite guard - Praetorians are trained in HtH combat. They don't even have rifles or pistols as backup weapons.

They are the bodyguards, not elite forces.

That's the problem - they didn't. Just because you wear crimson tunic, crucify random people and speak Kaizar instead of Caesar you won't become a soldier worthy of true Roman legacy. Romans were famous for winning battles against enemies vastly superior in numbers. The "Legion" is only good at crushing and enslaving primitive tribes and gets their asses handed to them in the first serious battle. They are a band of slaver savages, nothing more.

And your point is?

Nobody claimed that adapting the Roman model has made the Legion the supreme wasteland warriors and every bit as good as the real Roman legions. Maybe they are only good at crushing and enslaving weak enemies, but according to the game even though they've lost a major battle, they remain a threat to the NCR.

 

[Lockkaliber]

I'm not completely sure but I think I feel some serious butthurt over Hegel with Brother None, a butthurt that has nothing to do with New Vegas...

 

[Brother None]

I'm not completely sure but I think I feel some serious butthurt over Hegel with Brother None, a butthurt that has nothing to do with New Vegas...

Hegel's not my favourite, but Kant is, and he has as much to do with dialectics as Hegel.

Has nothing to do with the philosophy. The game is using it to replace the leader having an actual plan or reasonable vision of the future. It's just going "look at us be smart, that's good writing!"

Spoiler: it's not.

 

[Lockkaliber]

I see your point and I somewhat agree with it, but I also think you are overreacting because you feel strongly about the issue on another level.

 

[Brother None]

The elite that the NCR brings in are rangers in combat armor that use anti-materiel rifles and troopers in tuned-down power armor using heavy weapons. The elite the Legion brings in are HtH combat types, in light armor. The Praeterion guard use only close combat, nothing else.

There is a difference, which is then made up by the Legion's numbers and willingness to throw them away in a futile fashion. Good fun.

I see your point and I somewhat agree with it, but I also think you are overreacting because you feel strongly about the issue on another level.

Duh. I'm on a hate-roll.

It's still one of the weaker bits of New Vegas dialog.

 

[Pegultagol]

Well done review, Vault Dweller, I agree with many of your points, especially with the quest threads just fizzling out with the skill check choices, cutting off any further exposition. That was what I did not notice before, but somehow rankled me to no end.

What do you think of the prospects of the PC mods addressing some of your complaints against the game? I am sure that the difficulty can be increased substantially just using any mod that tweaks damage ratings or even which disables VATS system.

'Bout the Legion, I know I know, there is no clear answer as to the validity of the place in the Fallout setting, really. All I could have hoped for was someone within the slavers to present some grey areas of morality, like a recruitable NPC for example that could better explain the plausibility of its existence.

Spoiler

Legate does this somewhat, but did we have to wait for the endgame to actually peek at the varied motivations within the faction?

As for their choice of weaponry, I was kinda stunned that the Legion Centurions carried around thermic lancers and marksman rifles during their assault on the Dam (to the delight of Boone who proceed to loot the lances promptly)...did you notice that the Legion almost always close the gap between you to where their melee weapons could reach, whereas the NCR are content to keep their distance?

Spoiler

Also Caesar was once a Follower of Apocalypse, and could have gleaned all the Roman worship from their books and literature. And since he was such an uncharismatic guy, but considered to be some kind of prophet by the tribes, he could easily foist the lulzy Roman tropes upon them. How would your run of the mill tribesmen know better?

Something I noticed from how the Roman culture was used in the game, wasn't the Roman empire some form of Republican system also, with the Senate having a big influence as to who would be picked to be Caesar? That is not a despotic system of government the way Caesar in F:NV distorted to his own megalomaniac ends.

 

[Vault Dweller]

If you want to have one, you have to make it.

So make it. Design it.

Why reinvent the wheel? What could be simpler than armor made of overlapping stripes of leather and metal?

Yes. That doesn't mean randomly picking an identity is the best idea. There are identities that are "inherently" scary, like the Jackals or Fiends use. There are identities that are scary because of memories people still have, like the Enclave or Chinese Army.

I think you're missing the point. It's not about scaring people with your identity. It's about using the new identity to break the old ones and to forge many (80+?) tribes into one. When you take away the old values and customs, you have to give people something new to replace what you've taken, and it can't be something as primitive as what the Fiends have.

Romans? Romans have no advantage as an image whatsoever.

The advantage is their system - a proven success formula tested by centuries.

Yeah, not really. The wastes are still dominated by guys with guns, deathclaws and robots, none of whom I'd like to fight toe-to-toe. The Legion pacified a bunch of tribals out in Arizona, well whoop-di-dooo, great success....

86 tribes they've conquered and assimilated, according to the wiki.

*taps mike* Is this thing on? Hello? I'm still not getting an answer on "why Romans", am I?

Because the Roman Empire has lasted for nearly a millennium, during which the Roman Legion, considered by many to be the ultimate military machine of the ancient world, was nearly unstoppable.

Not the Greeks, not the Persians, not the Egyptians. The Romans. So, if you want to do it right and go with what works, you go with the Romans.

His ideas on Hegelian dialectics and historical inevitability would've been perfectly fine amongst naive philosophy students in the 1910s-1920s, you can't just plunk the idea into the Fallout and pretend it functions. All it implies is that he has absolutely no idea or real plan as to what the future holds, and is just making up shit as he goes along waiting for the "historically inevitably synthesis". What a load of crap.

What if he doesn't have a clue as to what the future holds? How does it make him a bad character?

He is a man poorly educated by our standards. He grew up in a library and read a lot of books, probably without in-depth understanding of what they are, hence a certain naivete. I mean, if he was your university teacher, I'd understand the rage. Since he isn't...

Let's not even mention that bit on "democracy", where he keeps contradicting himself, and offers no real explanation on why NCR is no longer functioning other than "it has people accepting bribes".

That's not all he says. He says that people are looking for themselves and nobody cares about the greater good (which is why the wasteland is a shithole). He also complains about the "extreme bureaucracy, corruption, and senatorial infighting". Can't say I disagree with him.

For a ruler who wants to get things done and who doesn't care about the individual, military dictatorship is the best way to impose his will without having to waste time to sell his ideas to other people sharing power (the senate, etc) and to keep people happy. Any student of history will tell you that. Just look at the Great Britain - from ruling a big chunk of the world to, uh, well... democracy? Yay?

Caesar thinks he got all the answers and he knows what he needs to do. He's definitely a plausible character.

 

[BLOBERT]

BROS I AM VERT VERY ANGRY THAT THINGS IN AN RPG MIGHT NOT BE TOTALLY REALISTIC

THIS MAKES ME ANGRIER ANFD ANGRIER NO ONE WOULD HAVE FORGOT THE WATER CHIP CHEAP ASS FAKE EXCUSE AND NO ONE WOULD HAVE TRIEDTO RAID THE VAULT BROS I AM ANGRY NOT EVERYTHING IS REALISTIC

BROS ALSO HOW COULD SOME CULTURE KEEP 1950S CULTURAL NORMS AND STILL PROGRESS IN TECHNOLOGY THE SAME WAY THIS IS HORRIBLE I AM ANGRY YOU ARE ALL FAGS

 

[flushfire]

The elite that the NCR brings in are rangers in combat armor that use anti-materiel rifles and troopers in tuned-down power armor using heavy weapons. The elite the Legion brings in are HtH combat types, in light armor. The Praeterion guard use only close combat, nothing else.

Legion's elite are Praetorians? I thought those were supposed to be Centurions, the ones using assault rifles and thermic lances in Hoover Dam.

 

[Twinkle]

Yeah, let's pretend that the Legion is machete-wielding savages charging Power Armored NCR troopers armed with energy weapons.

Even if we judge by the lowest common denominator a green NCR grunt (DT 10) is better protected than legion recruit (DT 6), surpasses legion prime (DT 8) and on par with legion veteran (DT 10). The best legion armor consists of looted parts from different types of armor (incl. PA) and offers DT 18 protection which is again inferior to NCR's DT20 PA variant. And the Legion still have nothing to confront sniper or anti-materiel rifles when it comes to ranged combat.

The point is that a loosely organized group of soldiers and workers has managed to seize power in a huge country and defeat several armies, including the White army and the Polish army. Not bad for larpers, eh?

Because "larpers" were pretty good at diplomacy and attracting mass support.

Did you see the NCR camps?

Yes. McCarran has elite sniper unit unless they are relocated. Camp Golf is a choke full of rangers. Plus there are several rangers at Mojave Outpost and multiple small stations. Compare them to centurions that are barely present outside of the final fight.

They are the bodyguards, not elite forces.

It's not a particularly smart decision when your bodyguards can be mowed down by enemy shooters long before they'll have a chance to retaliate.

but according to the game even though they've lost a major battle, they remain a threat to the NCR.

According to the writing/lore. In the game proper they just aren't much of a resistance. I've observed several skirmishes between NCR and legion patrols. The NCR always emerged victorious. Let's not forget about strongest companion in an early to mid game - anti-legion, ex-NCR sniper Boone. Multiple claims that he's so overpowered and all comes from a simple fact that he picks targets from a distance often crippling/destroying them before they even have a chance to get close.

 

[Jaesun]

BROS I AM VERT VERY ANGRY THAT THINGS IN AN RPG MIGHT NOT BE TOTALLY REALISTIC

THIS MAKES ME ANGRIER ANFD ANGRIER NO ONE WOULD HAVE FORGOT THE WATER CHIP CHEAP ASS FAKE EXCUSE AND NO ONE WOULD HAVE TRIEDTO RAID THE VAULT BROS I AM ANGRY NOT EVERYTHING IS REALISTIC

BROS ALSO HOW COULD SOME CULTURE KEEP 1950S CULTURAL NORMS AND STILL PROGRESS IN TECHNOLOGY THE SAME WAY THIS IS HORRIBLE I AM ANGRY YOU ARE ALL FAGS

 

[flushfire]

Even if we judge by the lowest common denominator a green NCR grunt (DT 10) is better protected than legion recruit (DT 6), surpasses legion prime (DT 8) and on par with legion veteran (DT 10). The best legion armor consists of looted parts from different types of armor (incl. PA) and offers DT 18 protection which is again inferior to NCR's DT20 PA variant. And the Legion still have nothing to confront sniper or anti-materiel rifles when it comes to ranged combat.

The moment you start using in-game stats in an argument you know you've already lost. The Courier can decimate the entire wasteland unarmed and wearing only leather. The most dangerous enemies you can face in-game are Deathclaws and Cazadores, which are also unarmed and naked.

Yes. McCarran has elite sniper unit.

That got assraped by Fiends.

 

[SCO]

Something I noticed from how the Roman culture was used in the game, wasn't the Roman empire some form of Republican system also, with the Senate having a big influence as to who would be picked to be Caesar? That is not a despotic system of government the way Caesar in F:NV distorted to his own megalomaniac ends.

 

[forgotmypasswordagain]

hi

+1 Brother None
-1 VD

just sayin iz all

 

[Felix]

BROS I AM VERT VERY ANGRY THAT THINGS IN AN RPG MIGHT NOT BE TOTALLY REALISTIC

THIS MAKES ME ANGRIER ANFD ANGRIER NO ONE WOULD HAVE FORGOT THE WATER CHIP CHEAP ASS FAKE EXCUSE AND NO ONE WOULD HAVE TRIEDTO RAID THE VAULT BROS I AM ANGRY NOT EVERYTHING IS REALISTIC

BROS ALSO HOW COULD SOME CULTURE KEEP 1950S CULTURAL NORMS AND STILL PROGRESS IN TECHNOLOGY THE SAME WAY THIS IS HORRIBLE I AM ANGRY YOU ARE ALL FAGS

 

[KreideBein]

Good review, VD. I agree with pretty much everything you wrote, though I partially agree with the point that BN is making about the Legion. At least cosmetically, I think that they could have been made to look more "normal" for the setting while still maintaining a Romanesque appearance, particularly in terms of the headgear, which I felt was the most jarring aspect of their visual presentation.

On the issue of the Legion using melee weapons more than the NCR, though, I don't really see why some people are so upset about it. In FO 1/2, melee weapons were pretty damn powerful and were a viable alternative to ranged weaponry when combined with the right stat and skill point allocation. If you just assume that a lot of guys in the Legion tend to be quite strong (which isn't much of a stretch), the use of melee weapons isn't inconsistent with previous FO games.

Even if we judge by the lowest common denominator a green NCR grunt (DT 10) is better protected than legion recruit (DT 6), surpasses legion prime (DT 8) and on par with legion veteran (DT 10). The best legion armor consists of looted parts from different types of armor (incl. PA) and offers DT 18 protection which is again inferior to NCR's DT20 PA variant. And the Legion still have nothing to confront sniper or anti-materiel rifles when it comes to ranged combat.

IIRC, the game implies that the Legion is a threat to the NCR more on the basis of sheer numbers rather than technological equality or superiority.

 

[Azrael the cat]

The conversation with Caesar. I skipped a lot of parts, including the "Hegelian dialectics" (worth reading), to save space:

* * * SPOILERS (IF YOU GIVE A FUCK) * * *

Interestingly, some of the wiser and greater Roman empirors (most famously Claudius) were closet - not even closet in Claudius' case - republicans. They knew their history, and knew very very well that Athenian democracy > Spartan military dictatorship. Unlike modern times, that wasn't even close to a universal belief, even in Athens and republican Rome, which is why I find the disintigration of republican to imperial Rome to fiefdoms more believable than thinking that the US would turn into kingdoms after a holocaust (look at early US and Australian history - small groups in difficult areas are just as likely to form proto-democracy as they are dictatorship/kingdoms - in fact it's easy at that stage as you can have direct Athenian democracy, where everyone gets a vote, or everyone of education gets a vote. It's only later where you start getting the need for elected representatives that monarchies become easier to keep together for a while than democracies).

Democracy has always been better at fostering technological innovation and commerce, and for that reason - despite the film 300 - the Athenians were very much the senior partner in the Athens/Sparta alliance. In fact, as the primary democracy they were the closest analogue to the US-post-coldwar. They bound all the other Greek states together to fight 'the big bad' (Ruski...um I mean Persia), and once they defeated the Persians, they dominated the known world, demanding taxes and unfair trade advantages. They ended up taking on the entire civilised western world and almost won - again tech advantage from superior electorial system. Their superior ships meant they could flatten an opposing capital and get back home to fortify before the opposing army reached them. Then they made a big mistake - forgot that Sparta might just be mad enough to do things the 'old way', and just MARCH a fricken army across land, forgetting about defence of Sparta's own territory, to take out the Athenian capital - no democratic centre, no technological base, no Athens.

So whilst I can't see a split into kingdoms, there are precedents for a comparatively low-tech but numerous and determined, and ultra-warlike, force beating a high-tech democracy, where that democracy is spread sufficiently thin (like Athens, the NCR is spread out severely, taking on a fuckload of minor clans, the BoS and others). And melee weapons, with ranged support, have proved psychologically incredibly effective up until at least WW2 - wiki the Gurkas if you want a good example. Of course, having a bunch of crazy Indian commandos who when told that they were going to enter a battle via airdrop, went 'hmmm....one condition - the planes have to go as slow and as low as possible' - the mad bastards were agreeing to an airdrop without realising that they were going to be given parachutes!!! Fucking A

Between that kind of mentality, and the psychological fear of the Gurka's preference for ambushing at near-melee range and using long-knife wherever possible over guns meant that enemies tended to run rather than fight. There is something very very primal about blades that makes trained shoulders shit their pants. So long as Ceasar is using a decent backing of ranged guns, a front line of machetes and spears, could work in the right terrain.

Edit: They've also got Rome all wrong.

During it's growth and height, Rome grew into what it was primarily by cooption. Sure, they had a great military and great engineering, and tremendous medicine (operations with anaesthesia, a kit of surgical tools very similar to our own - something that wouldn't be seen again until around 1800), but their biggest success was diplomacy. Basically, they'd approach a nation, say 'hey, pay us taxes and accept our sovereignty, and we'll allow you to KEEP your culture, KEEP your religion and EVEN keep your own leaders and government style, so long as they know that they are subject to Roman rule and can be replaced with a puppet leadership if they try to screw us...oh and if you say no we'll send in the troops and kill you all'. Most of their expansion occurred because nations were sensible enough to adopt the former option. And they got a good deal out of it, most of the time - the Romans kept to their world, building aquaducts, sewerage disposal, roads, trading routes and largely lifting the standard of living in conquered territories.

It wasn't until they (a) grew so big that they had to split the empire into two, (b) made some utterly catastrophic errors that would never have happened if they were still a republic (killing their last great general and his men, who were on the verge of beating the huns, because they found the otherwise loyal general had partial barbarian blood, and feared he might become popular enough to gain political power), and (c) ran into multiple opponents who were just too far culturally removed for the 'absorb and install a puppet leader, keeping the conquered happy' tactic to work, requiring ACTUAL wars on multiple fronts across too big a territory. Replacing foreign cultures with one Roman culture never had anything to do with it. Roman engineering and sovereignty, yes. But the smartest thing they did was to NOT enforce their culture upon the conquered.

Not that I care about that kind of stuff in my gaming. I'm a story-fag, but I can deal with that kind of stuff without detracting from my enjoyment, so long as it is internally reasonably (not completely) consistent.

 

[made]

It's almost like NMA doesn't have a comments section for their own articles.

 

[Pegultagol]

Legion's elite are Praetorians? I thought those were supposed to be Centurions, the ones using assault rifles and thermic lances in Hoover Dam.

You're right, they are Centurions with those shoulder pads at the dam with the heavy weapons. The Praetorians are the ones in Caesar's camp being bodyguards/buttfuck toys and using only ballistic fists.

 

[Needles]

The real question is: why not let them be inspired by Romans, but with a bit more nuance?

You know, all these words and excuses in, I still don't see anyone answer this one.

The Brotherhood of Steel is a "monastic" order, with "paladins" and "knights" and "scribes". That's cool. It works because they adapted a bit of identity, but fell short of trying to run their lives according to the Code of Chivalry, calling each other "ser" and swinging big swords around. The Khans (until New Vegas) adopted the nomadic lifestyle and used skulls on poles to intimidate people, but didn't refer to their leader as Khan (there's no Garl Khan, but of course there's a Papa Khan), live exclusively in tents eating yak meat, or wear their beards in mongol cuts. It's not hard to do it right if you're subtle about it. The legion has all the subtlety of a half-brick to the face.

Exactly - they are not at all like the other factions, they are a caricature of a faction. Legion was (at least for me) the single most out-of-place thing in NV. I mean, just LOOK at them.
It seems to me that people think it's okay because of

The Caesar's Legion concept was created by Chris Avellone during pre-production for Van Buren. J.E. Sawyer then elaborated on the concept:

which of course doesn't validate anything.

 

[Pegultagol]

One thing I wondered, though, was why there weren't any archery or crossbow units for the Legion.

 

[Twinkle]

The moment you start using in-game stats in an argument you know you've already lost.

How's that? You know more objective criteria for determining the relative strength of the equipment? Do you choose a weapon/armor based solely on its looks and description or pay attention to damage output/reduction, condition etc?

The Courier can decimate the entire wasteland unarmed and wearing only leather.

He/she can. But The Courier benefits from:

- gigantic opportunities to improve stats and skills during the course of the game.
- a wide selection of perks.
- access to various drugs/food/stims
- teleportation through Pipboy

Let's not forget one little detail: The Courier is controlled by a human, thus the PC adds player's meta knowledge of the genre, exploits in game mechanics, cheap tactics to counter stupid, glitchy AI, aiming skills and the magic powahs of Save/Load to his/her arsenal.

It's strange to compare the character created by the player to beat the game with pre-determined NPC with largely fixed stats and equipment and very limited skill selection.

The most dangerous enemies you can face in-game are Deathclaws and Cazadores

Yes

which are also unarmed and naked

So, we'll ignore Deathclaw's natural attack/dt which rivals humanity's elite forces and considerably higher HP? Or speedy Cazadores which tend to attack in swarms and deal damage comparable to ballistic fist coupled with poison? That's not exactly the same as an unarmed/naked human.

That got assraped by Fiends.

Not the whole unit.

IIRC, the game implies that the Legion is a threat to the NCR more on the basis of sheer numbers rather than technological equality or superiority.

That's correct. However, in the game you don't see all that many legion members, while NCR troopers are almost at every step. It's a major breakup between the narrative and the gameplay. Even during "epic" final battle, when you expect to be swarmed by the Legion, you'll be disappointed.

 

[Lgrayman]

Great review. My only disappointment is that you didn't write more about the Legion. I'm surprised you're defending them here, as I remember you specifically saying yourself that you thought it was silly how they all wore Roman uniforms, etc.

Vault Dweller wrote:
The Legion is a strong raider-like outfit which, for some really odd reasons, is wearing Roman uniforms and has ranks like Decanus. Somehow I doubt that 200+ years after the post apocalypse people would give a fuck or even remember what the Romans used to wear and call themselves. Not to mention be able to mass produce the armor. Oh well...

What changed your mind?

Secondly, I do think it's a bit too black and white, with the NCR being the blatant 'good guys.' Caesar thinking the NCR is corrupt and looking out for themselves is one thing, but he complains about them not being virtuous... whilst having a bunch of innocent slaves around his camp. On top of that, his reasons for killing people (well, not just that - crucifying them, just to make it even more obvious that they're bad guys who can't even kill people in a humane way) are fairly flimsy. If I remember correctly, the people in Nipton were said to be prostitutes, gamblers, etc... so? That's a reason to kill them? I'd say gambling is a bit better than enforcing slavery. I really wanted to side with the Legion, but it just didn't seem like a logical thing to do.

 

[MicoSelva]

Joined: 27 Feb 2009
Posts: 1

I just don't understand reality sometimes...