Review Vince D. Weller Does Fallout: New Vegas

[Ausir]

EDIT: looking back through NMA's archives I find him Briosa quoting Sawyer on putting the Legion on Fallout 3 and 4, but I now recall they were indeed from MCA's PnP sessions.

So they both suck.

Actually, you were right. The totalitarian slaving faction was originally from MCA's PnP sessions, but it was Sawyer who gave them the Roman spin:

One of the few big things I did on Van Buren was taking an organization Chris invented and changing it (perhaps mangling it in the process) into a neo-Roman slavers' legion with all the weird titles, makeshift costumes, and traditions of that group.

 

[Brother None]

Fallout was about exploring how people deal with the fact that their world had gone ka-boom and exploring the new societies.

That's the same argument. I know it's a post-apocalyptic setting, and all post-apocalyptic settings are about how people deal with the world gone kaboom, in whatever way the setting offered. Fallout is already a settled setting, though, and it has added things like retro-50s. And while groups adopt unique identities, none of them suddenly played dress-up or adopt that much. It's as subtle as a brick to the face, which is why it doesn't work.

Unless you too are a big Roman fanboy like Sawyer, I guess

Much like the Master, Caesar thinks that the unity is the answer, but he goes about achieving it in a different way, which is what makes it interesting.

That still doesn't answer my question: why Romans? From all the unique identities that actually fit Fallout, why pick one that doesn't, if not just because you think "Romans are awesome"? This isn't a question of plausibility, it's a question of design. Not everything that's plausible is a good idea, not everything that fits generic post-apocalyptic trappings fit Fallout. So why push against the limits with a bunch of cosplayers, who use close combat weaponry (yes, they use guns too, but their elite soldiers use those special shotgun punch thingies, their leader uses a comically huge sword, and several soldiers in the final battle use fireaxes), coinage, correct pronunciation (which makes the least sense of all) when there are better design options available? Bethesda logic dictates "because it's cool". We're supposed to support that now?

The Legion is the only "let's do shit differently" faction, the only faction that wants to build a different society.

A society that is evil by both our standards and Fallout's. They're comically evil bad guys.

When you enter Nipton and see that the Legion's violence isn't random but aimed at certain elements (and even the NCR agrees that "Nipton was a shithole that deserved to be burned" - the problem was that the NCR wasn't willing to do the job and Nipton continued to exist spreading its influence, until the Legion showed up), that's a pretty good reason at least to consider if you're on the right side.

Yeah, they gambled and had prostitutes, that's a great reason to butcher them all, nail them on crosses and use their women as sex-slaves, right? The cure is obviously worse than the disease here, when the cure is having a bunch of psychopaths rage across the wasteland.

Not to mention the NCR was not "unwilling" to do the job. Remember back to Fallout 2: there were no prostitutes in NCR held areas, and they had banned gambling (pushing it to the back room of the lone bar). The problem isn't that the NCR is unwilling, it's that they're incapable. Why are they incapable? Because the Legion is occupying most of their time. So the Legion causes the very problem they purport to solve. That's a laughable motivation.

Actually, you were right.

Holy shit :shock:

Now I can go back to just blaming JE Sawyer for adding one of the worst factions in Fallout history to this title.

 

[Relay]

From this point of view, the Legion fits the bill and the setting perfectly

Yeah, skirties with machetes can terrorize people in a world where guns and ammo is so abundant there are more lying around than living human beings, fits the setting so perfectly. A world where drug addicts like the Fiends are running around with laser powered machine guns. Internal consistency much.

 

[Vault Dweller]

@VD

SOME of the things Caesar said I could understand but to mimic the roman down to wielding machete (instead of gladius) and throwing spears ? And that's what makes the NCR cower in fear ? An army of men in skirts toying with sharp metals ?

Most Legionaries I've seen were armed with good pistols (took my first magnum from a Legionary), rifles, and SMGs.

What the fuck is up with people like Legate Lanius wielding a stupid sword coming right out of Final Fantasy 7 which is a game Christ Avellone fancies a lot ?

It's the second or third time you bitch about Avellone liking FF7. Just sayin'.

No i'm sorry but if you don't find this retarded then there is no salvation for you, you're beyond redemption, your soul just can't be saved. Legate Lanius is not a super mutant. He's not a drug-addicted Fiend. He's a fucking regular human being with a sword. Hacking at people with guns. The final boss.

Final bosses are in jRPGs.

The setting is so cringe worthy that it could never make it in my top 10 EVEN if it had the best combat and gameplay mechanics ever. It just isn't likable...

Well, I guess that's why nobody here likes it.

You see, the Legion could make sense in a world where guns and ammo are rare but they're so abundant in the world of Fallout even a debt-ridden drug addict can own one if he fancies violence as a problem solver.

Which is why the Legion has plenty of guns and ammo.

 

[Ausir]

And while groups adopt unique identities, none of them suddenly played dress-up or adopt that much.

Well, judging from concept art, the Khans were meant to dress up as Mongol warriors too back in FO1. If the game had had more detailed graphics, they probably would have.

 

[Relay]

Most Legionaries I've seen were armed with good pistols (took my first magnum from a Legionary), rifles, and SMGs.

They weren't as well equipped as the NCR rangers though, and the strongest Legionaries were more often than not users of melee and unarmed. Caesar himself, who is quite strong, is using his fists. FFS.

Final bosses are in jRPGs.

Yeah. And Fallout 2 is a jRPG (you can't help but have to kill final boss Frank Horrigan.).
Legate Lanius is a final boss in everything but name. He's the strongest the legion has to offer and someone you HAVE to fight if your speech isn't 100% and joined any of the factions other than the legion.

 

[Brother None]

And while groups adopt unique identities, none of them suddenly played dress-up or adopt that much.

Well, judging from concept art, the Khans were meant to dress up as Mongol warriors too back in FO1. If the game had had more detailed graphics, they probably would have.

Yeah I never dig that "probably". Those concepts arts were really early. I no more take them seriously than the talking squirrel town (edit: raccoons). There were plenty of bad ideas in Fallout's development just like any game's, they were dumped for a variety of reasons. Because they were incapable? Possibly. Because they figured out it's not working? Also possibly.

Not to mention that Fallout took place at a different point in the world's development after the apocalypse, when such a faction has more of a place than it does in New Vegas' post-post-apocalypse, and they still looked more subtle than the Legion (except for Garl's sword in that one piece).

Legate Lanius is a final boss in everything but name. He's the strongest the legion has to offer and someone you HAVE to fight if your speech isn't 100% and didn't joined any of the factions other than the legion.

The final fight if you side with the Legion is similarly unavoidable without high speech, but it's much better in design.

 

[SharkClub]

The legion has a bunch of rifles and SMGs at The Fort, sure, they favour Unarmed and Melee, but why not? If they find themselves skilled in that sort of combat why shouldn't they? A lot of Legion guys also use rifles, pistols and such.

 

[Relay]

The legion has a bunch of rifles and SMGs at The Fort, sure, they favour Unarmed and Melee, but why not? If they find themselves skilled in that sort of combat why shouldn't they? A lot of Legion guys also use rifles, pistols and such.

Oh please. NCR Ranger with Rifles vs some fag who calls himself the strongest of the legion but goes melee. Who should have the upper hand ? He's not a cyborg, mutant, ghoul or drug user. There is no way that kind of flaming faggot could have survived for so long and kept his position in an army.

Frank Horrigan at least had an excuse consistent with Fallout's setting : he's a super mutant, and an experimental, new gen one at that, equipped with power armor. So he should be really, really strong even with his fists.

There is nothing that justifies the existence of Legate Lanius. Nothing. That guy is there just because some dude wanted a villain wielding a bumper sword.

 

[Ausir]

Not to mention them relying on healing powder while the NCR uses stimpaks and qualified doctors.

 

[SharkClub]

baww baww baww

Well, from the beginning I've seen that Caesar's Legion use stealth to their advantage. Some of their armors/clothes have magical +Sneak bonuses and they snuck in and managed to fuck up Camp Searchlight using a stealthy approach.

 

[Brother None]

Yeah. Nothing wrong with their Frumentarii (lulz) using light armor and stuff, though there's better stuff around to hide than wearing a wolfpelt on your head so they're still being stupid, but that doesn't really explain their frontline soldiers going in lighty armed with axes against soldiers using automatic weapons. Or the comically huge sword.

 

[Darth Roxor]

The legion has a bunch of rifles and SMGs at The Fort, sure, they favour Unarmed and Melee, but why not?

Wanted to find a video of a cavalry charge being ripped to shreds by a musket wall on youtube, but unfortunately I couldn't find one. A shame.

 

[Vault Dweller]

That's the same argument. I know it's a post-apocalyptic setting, and all post-apocalyptic settings are about how people deal with the world gone kaboom, in whatever way the setting offered. Fallout is already a settled setting, though, and it has added things like retro-50s. And while groups adopt unique identities, none of them suddenly played dress-up or adopt that much.

What you call playing dress-up, I call wearing a uniform (made of football gear and metal stripes).

That still doesn't answer my question: why Romans? From all the unique identities that actually fit Fallout, why pick one that doesn't, if not just because you think "Romans are awesome"?

That should be easy to answer and the answer is provided in the game, btw. Nobody did it better than the Romans. Their military machine was superb, which is why they kicked more ass and lasted a lot longer than any other civ combined. If you want to borrow, why not borrow the best?

 

[Ausir]

That should be easy to answer and the answer is provided in the game, btw. Nobody did it better than the Romans. Their military machine was superb, which is why they kicked more ass and lasted a lot longer than any other civ combined. If you want to borrow, why not borrow the best?

Their medicinem for example, was also superb for that time. Too bad the Legion doesn't borrow that from Romans.

 

[Brother None]

What you call playing dress-up, I call wearing a uniform (made of football gear and metal stripes).

Wearing a uniform designed to look like a long-dead culture isn't the same as just wearing a generic uniform for the sake of unity.

If you want to borrow, why not borrow the best?

a) because borrowing an identity is about externalizing as much as about internalizing. Founding a nation means adopting an identity that not only can your own men relate to, but that others grow to fear. A long-dead, forgotten civilization is probably your worst option here.

b) many people throughout history have had the same thought, and borrowed from Romans. You'll notice how none of them felt like co-opting every single bit of Roman identity, they picked what they needed and discarded the rest, because that's how cultural adaptation actually works, unlike in Obsidian's fantasy. They didn't adapt to things that are simply ineffective in their time (refusing to use guns or contemporary medicine) in their quest for Roman identity.

c) you're still answering my question about a design choice by pointing to the videogame's explanations for plausibility. Those aren't the same things.

 

[SharkClub]

For a second here, let's all pretend that members of Caesar's Legion have high Unarmed, high Melee Weapons and high Sneak skills, but low Guns, Explosives, Energy Weapons, Science and Medicine skills. It's an RPG, does this logic make any less sense than the Courier killing 10 Raiders with his Unarmed skill and surviving?

Obligatory fighting from Fallout oldfags can continue now.

 

[Brother None]

Oh yeah, let's use gameist logic to explain the setting, because that really works in RPGs.

I am rolling my eyes at you, Reconity.

 

[SharkClub]

Oh yeah, let's use gameist logic to explain the setting, because that really works in RPGs.

Does this excuse the Vault Dweller, Chosen One and the Courier's involvement in the Fallout world and how they shape things? Surely the Vault Dweller couldn't have gone and blown up the Military Base with the help of just a few companions, and single-handedly take on The Master? The Vault Dweller is an über dude, but because he's the protagonist that excuses everything. He is still seen as 100% canon and completely within the realms of verisimilitude in the Fallout universe.

I am rolling my eyes at you, Reconity.

 

[Relay]

Oh yeah, let's use gameist logic to explain the setting, because that really works in RPGs.

I am rolling my eyes at you, Reconity.

Which is stupid since we all know why the mask wearing meanie goes full retard on you : because someone at Obsidian had to throw a reference to some obscure piece of obscure yellow culture.

Bumper Sword vs Buster Sword.

 

[Brother None]

Those don't look remotely similar, Relay.

Does this excuse the Vault Dweller, Chosen One and the Courier's involvement in the Fallout world and how they shape things?

Yes. Because they're PCs.

 

[SharkClub]

Does this excuse the Vault Dweller, Chosen One and the Courier's involvement in the Fallout world and how they shape things?

Yes. Because they're PCs.

But they're also masters of all types of weaponry, persuasion, stealing, sneaking, hand to hand combat, agile, strong, handsome, perceptive mega-machines who somehow take on battles that are completely impossible if any realism is applied.

The Vault Dweller is referenced several times, not from the actions you made in the first game, but from the actions that are decided by the developers to have happened in the first game. The superhuman from Vault 13 who saved California from the huge mutant threat.

 

[KalosKagathos]

If you share my opinion that quest design is the most important aspect of an RPG, then you’ll like New Vegas a lot. If you think that RPGs are all about character system and/or combat, your opinion will depend not so much on New Vegas, but on whether or not you liked Fallout 3.

Translation: if you like RPGs, stay the hell away. Matches my impressions from the, ahem, demo. Why can't RPG developers finally get their shit together and make a game with a good combat system (TB or RT, I don't even care at this point anymore), you know, one that doesn't fail at being a game? Branching and multiple quest solutions are welcome, don't get me wrong, but the fundamentals should always take priority, no exception.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Oh yeah, let's use gameist logic to explain the setting, because that really works in RPGs.

Does this excuse the Vault Dweller, Chosen One and the Courier's involvement in the Fallout world and how they shape things? Surely the Vault Dweller couldn't have gone and blown up the Military Base with the help of just a few companions, and single-handedly take on The Master? The Vault Dweller is an über dude, but because he's the protagonist that excuses everything. He is still seen as 100% canon and completely within the realms of verisimilitude in the Fallout universe.

That's why I hate sequels.

The only way to avoid stuff like this would be making a sequel in universe where the Vault Dweller has died and failed at his quest.

 

[UserNamer]

Oh yeah, let's use gameist logic to explain the setting, because that really works in RPGs.

I am rolling my eyes at you, Reconity.

Maybe some people has mutated thanks to radiation and now possess superhuman agility and strength.

If you can make a pc with 10 strength which is equivalent to a mutant or a power armor user level, you can imagine the legion as being effectively composed of superhumans, survivors of the brutal nuclear wastelands of the easts and the numerous tribal wars. Add armor materials that blocks bullets and you're set.

And even the stealth explanation is not bad if you think about that. Maybe they sneak into ncr camps at night and machete murder people in their sleep