Community VtmB patch controversy quelled and patch reboot

[Wesp5]

Can you make each change/fix optional? Such as a user could select what change/fix they would like to have added, and not select which change/fix they don't want.

Sorry, but I have no idea how I should do this. As it is right now I changed some things back which didn't make sense when reviewing them for the basic patch (changed conditions for Christopher, Johansen and the desk clerk) and for all other cases people could decide regarding the item or dialogue name combined with the readme if they want to include only some of the reverted changes. That's the best I can do without adding new levels...

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Well, I though the whole issue over and I could offer a compromise solution. What would you think if I included some files into my next release that would turn my patch into a more basic one?

I dunno. I mean, despite the fact that I don't want it, there is demand for your patch. As you've said, you've made changes that various fans have requested for various reasons, one of which was making all the weapons real. That said, I would like to see a "basic patch". I think your best bet, rather than trying to combine patches into one with selectable options (which would make it unnecessarily complicated both for you and for everyone who wanted to install it), would be to have two separate patches. That way you can keep going down the path you're on and maybe even take it further like adding in new quests and so on, especially to tidy up the ending. Then for those who just want to play the game again with a few things fixed will have that choice with the basic patch and if after that, they feel a bit adventurous and want to see what the "fans" have done, they can try that patch / mod then.

Something like WeiDu seems like a good idea but that's an awful lot of work. What you'd really want is some sort of form where users tick options about what they want changed and then once they've selected everything, they click "download" and it downloads the maps and files necessary for those changes they've selected.

 

[Wesp5]

I think your best bet, rather than trying to combine patches into one with selectable options (which would make it unnecessarily complicated both for you and for everyone who wanted to install it), would be to have two separate patches.

That's basically the way it would be. After extracting my usual patch anyone wanting the more basic version would just have to extract an additional folder on top of the patch and that's it! The only problem I see is that changing some things back would blow up the size of the patch beyond reason so should I even bother when the following would still be active?

+ All illogical spawning and respawning is removed.
+ Almost all enemies will drop their weapons on death.
+ Some illogical placed weapons have been moved or swapped.
+ Unused dialogue lines, models, items and encounters are restored.

How about the restored new occult items? They could be easily removed but was anyone actually annoyed by them?

 

[mathboy]

+ Some illogical placed weapons have been moved or swapped.
+ Unused dialogue lines, models, items and encounters are restored.

I don't like those two, and if you include them, I wouldn't get your patch.

I would suggest doing it the other way around though, first patch basic, then add complicated onto it, so files won't need to be changed twice.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Yeah, I think the basic patch needs to be as basic as possible. It needs to be the patch that someone who just bought Bloodlines can install right after the Troika ones. As much as I hated the respawning for example, it's still how Troika decided to release the game. When I (eventually) get around to playing Bloodlines again, I want it as close to the original as possible. Then once that's done, the more advanced patch is there for people to give a whirl.

I really would only keep the changes down to the bare minimum. Don't change humanity points etc... unless the quest specifically says you lose / gain a humanity but you don't because of a mis-named variable. Don't move weapons around unless a quest says the weapon will be somewhere and it's not etc...

 

[Wesp5]

+ Some illogical placed weapons have been moved or swapped.
+ Unused dialogue lines, models, items and encounters are restored.

I don't like those two, and if you include them, I wouldn't get your patch.

The weapons are the Ra blade and the flamethrower and it may be possible to restore them to the Hallowbrook Hotel with not much increase in size. I could even remove the two crossbows and the critical weapon dropping by Bach and the asian vampire.

But I don't know why you dislike restored unused dialogues or models or the Yukie encounter at the end? These were all found in the game and just unavailable because of errors or in some cases probably time shortage on the hand of Troika...

 

[Wesp5]

Yeah, I think the basic patch needs to be as basic as possible. It needs to be the patch that someone who just bought Bloodlines can install right after the Troika ones. As much as I hated the respawning for example, it's still how Troika decided to release the game.

But most probably it's how Troika was forced to release the game due to time restraint. I just recently restored the ammo model for the Desert Eagle. It was missing as well as the female wield model and sounds. Noone can tell me that Troika intended to release it that way!

I really would only keep the changes down to the bare minimum. Don't change humanity points etc... unless the quest specifically says you lose / gain a humanity but you don't because of a mis-named variable. Don't move weapons around unless a quest says the weapon will be somewhere and it's not etc...

All humanity changes will be gone in the basic patch and I'll think about the weapons. It should add about 7 MB to remove them.

 

[mathboy]

What was wrong with the ammo model before?

And, when talking about restoring content, there is a line in my world between mistakes (wrong variable in one or maybe two places, or something like it), and out takes. A mistake is a mistake, and should of course be fixed, while the out takes should remain removed, as we have no idea whether they were removed because Troika didn't have time, because they didn't have money, or because they realised the thing they took out were stupid.

 

[Wesp5]

What was wrong with the ammo model before?

It was the ammo model of the Glock, the same as the female Desert Eagle wield model was that of the Glock. There was even this line in it's item file "The glock in this file needs to be replaced!". Which it never was because Troika had no time or just forgot about it.

A mistake is a mistake, and should of course be fixed, while the out takes should remain removed, as we have no idea whether they were removed because Troika didn't have time, because they didn't have money, or because they realized the thing they took out were stupid.

But the example above clearly shows that forgetting about a model, or a line, or an item were common mistakes in Bloodlines. Where should I draw the line? So I won't bother to remove all the new lines as you will probably don't use my patch anyway .

 

[mathboy]

It was the ammo model of the Glock, the same as the female Desert Eagle wield model was that of the Glock. There was even this line in it's item file "The glock in this file needs to be replaced!". Which it never was because Troika had no time or just forgot about it.

That, I guess, is something you should fix.

But the example above clearly shows that forgetting about a model, or a line, or an item were common mistakes in Bloodlines. Where should I draw the line? So I won't bother to remove all the new lines as you will probably don't use my patch anyway Wink.

Can you show me how you know it was time shortage? Like I said before, any one or two mistypings that accidentally removed a model or dialogue line or encounter or whatever should of course be fixed.

 

[Wesp5]

It was the ammo model of the Glock, the same as the female Desert Eagle wield model was that of the Glock. There was even this line in it's item file "The glock in this file needs to be replaced!". Which it never was because Troika had no time or just forgot about it.

That, I guess, is something you should fix.

I did that for the next release.

Can you show me how you know it was time shortage? Like I said before, any one or two mistypings that accidentally removed a model or dialogue line or encounter or whatever should of course be fixed.

Of course I can't but the example with the Desert Eagle shows that there was time shortage and things were left out because of it. But I don't think it really matters because the lines I restored don't change anything fundamental about the dialogues and the new models are just different looking enemies (2 cases), NPCs (2 cases) or scenery (2 animals) which are doing the same as their former counterparts (even using the same weapons). I will remove the occult items which do have effect on the gameplay but what should I do about the SWAT rifle? It was restored in the first unofficial patch 0.1 already...

 

[Zero Credibility]

Maybe Ming gave it to him to raise his interest in vampires in the first place.

I hate to bring this up again, but I did some reading on the old WoD setting and I stumbled on the name "Tal' Mahe' Ra" - it is the old name of the secret cult the Black Hand that is trying to bring about the Gehenna. The Sabbat's secret police/assassins also called the Black Hand are in fact just the front for the cult, but the cult has members in the Camarilla as well. I think that the in game description (and the fact that the weapon is for some reason a katana) of the Tal' Mahe' Ra blade is misleading too - "Kindred of the East" (it's something like that, isn't it?) should probably be "Kindred of the Middle East".

So I don't think that the blade really fits in Chinatown - why would Ming Xiao, Mandarin or Yukie have it? Hell, for that matter it doesn't really fit in the game at all. In fact, the only person that just might actually have the damn thing (as far as the P&P setting is concerned) is that Tzimisce, Andrei. He probably isn't the member of the true Black Hand (or else he wouldn't be trying to prevent the Gehenna - unless he was lying about his motives for getting the sarcophagus) but he is reasonably high in the Sabbat and he might have picked up the blade from a dead member. So maybe the Hallowbrook hotel is the best place to put the blade after all - only this time maybe somewhere in Andrei's lair?

 

[Wesp5]

So maybe the Hallowbrook hotel is the best place to put the blade after all - only this time maybe somewhere in Andrei's lair?

But then the logic against the original placing would apply again: Why does Andrei not use it himself and why would he leave such a powerful weapon available to an enemy?

On the other hand the Mandarin could have obtained the blade just as a collector without knowing any of it's background or maybe Ming took it from some killed Sabbat...

 

[Zero Credibility]

But then the logic against the original placing would apply again: Why does Andrei not use it himself and why would he leave such a powerful weapon available to an enemy?

Maybe in his war-form he prefers unarmed to melee? Maybe his melee skill sucks? Or he simply frenzies when you enter his haven and forgets all about his weapon (privacy of the haven is important for Tzimisce)? After all, why isn't Mandarin using it? I'm not suggesting to return the blade in the original position, but maybe to put it somewhere in Andrei's lair for player to find after (or even when) taking him out.

On the other hand the Mandarin could have obtained the blade just as a collector without knowing any of it's background or maybe Ming took it from some killed Sabbat...

Possible. But to me it looks better if a powerful Sabbat has it in the first place. He could be a Black Hand cultist himself or he could have taken the blade directly from one. Either way it is a more probable scenario than cultist>shop>Mandarin or cultist>Ming>Mandarin.

 

[Wesp5]

Maybe in his war-form he prefers unarmed to melee? Maybe his melee skill sucks? Or he simply frenzies when you enter his haven and forgets all about his weapon (privacy of the haven is important for Tzimisce)? After all, why isn't Mandarin using it?

Mandarin isn't using it because it is far away and placed like a collectors item. But I checked out Andrei's lair yesterday and there are two coffins there that I could probably turn into containers to place the Ra blade and also the flamethrower in. That way both would be introduced very near to their original location and your reasoning with Andrei prefering his war-form makes sense. I'll check this out over the weekend. Oh, and BTW, I removed the SWAT rifle for the basic patch so it's even more back to the roots .

 

[Zero Credibility]

Sound good. Maybe the container with the blade could be locked to make use of the security skill after all. The blade is certainly valuable enough that he would want it for himself. But I think the flamethrower shouldn't be there. It just a generic weapon, it doesn't fit with Andrei's Tzimisce elder image at all, and it is a bad idea for a vampire to use a flamethrower if he doesn't know precisely how to handle it. I can't see why he would want to have it in a very flammable looking derelict building at all. Let the player just buy the flamethrower - that way there might be at least some use for the finance skill.

Noticed a small (and insignificant) detail - the replica katana is handled differently from other weapons. In the inventory it is displayed with a stack number - like it is possible to have a stack of replicas.

 

[Wesp5]

Maybe the container with the blade could be locked to make use of the security skill after all. The blade is certainly valuable enough that he would want it for himself.

Hmmm, besides that I don't know if could make this work, a coffin that can be locked ?

But I think the flamethrower shouldn't be there. It just a generic weapon, it doesn't fit with Andrei's Tzimisce elder image at all, and it is a bad idea for a vampire to use a flamethrower if he doesn't know precisely how to handle it.

He could have taken it from a hunter he killed and as an elder he should definately know how to handle it when a fledgling like you can use it. Also he has a lot of burning torches in his lair so I think it would fit in well. Maybe he uses it to light the torches .

Noticed a small (and insignificant) detail - the replica katana is handled differently from other weapons. In the inventory it is displayed with a stack number - like it is possible to have a stack of replicas.

Thanks for the tip, fixed for 3.6!

 

[Zero Credibility]

Hmmm, besides that I don't know if could make this work, a coffin that can be locked ?

Right, that doesn't make much sense.

He could have taken it from a hunter he killed and as an elder he should definately know how to handle it when a fledgling like you can use it. Also he has a lot of burning torches in his lair so I think it would fit in well. Maybe he uses it to light the torches .

Then wouldn't it be a better idea if he gave it to one of his lieutenants guarding his haven? Why keep something so dangerous to him in his own haven if it has no real value and nobody is using it? As for Andrei knowing how to use guns... I'm not so sure. Elders can be very set in their ways and Tzimisce elders are no exception to this. Quite the opposite actually. He certainly doesn't strike me as a firearms using type. I combat he either sends his creations at you or turns in his war-form and attacks you in hand-to-hand combat.

Besides, putting two most powerful weapons in the game at the same place seems like an overkill to me. As I said, have the player buy the flamethrower. It fits nicely with Mercurio (because of his Vegas connection) and makes some use of the pretty much useless finance skill.

 

[Wesp5]

Then wouldn't it be a better idea if he gave it to one of his lieutenants guarding his haven?

There is noone guarding his haven and I don't know if NPCs could use the flamethrower and if you would survive this anyway !

Besides, putting two most powerful weapons in the game at the same place seems like an overkill to me.

This was the same in the original and is similar right now with the SWAT rifle and the flamethrower available both from the Leopold Society.

As I said, have the player buy the flamethrower. It fits nicely with Mercurio (because of his Vegas connection) and makes some use of the pretty much useless finance skill.

The player can always buy the flamethrower but it was probably placed with the Ra blade into the Hallowbrook to give non fighting characters a chance against the Sabbat and Andrei in the first place.

 

[Zero Credibility]

There is noone guarding his haven and I don't know if NPCs could use the flamethrower and if you would survive this anyway !

Oh, I know that. What I was trying to say is that if Andrei had a flamethrower he wouldn't keep it unused in his haven but would give it to somebody to stop you.

The player can always buy the flamethrower but it was probably placed with the Ra blade into the Hallowbrook to give non fighting characters a chance against the Sabbat and Andrei in the first place.

But this would be made more or less irrelevant by moving the items to Andrei, wouldn't it? And it's not like the hotel is much of a challenge when compared to those damn sewers.

Well to be honest, I can imagine one reason why Andrei would keep the flamethrower in his haven. He would probably would want some heavy firepower if going after the prince - even if he can't use it himself. And it is possible that he simply doesn't trust his minions not to burn the place down with it before the attack.

 

[Wesp5]

Well to be honest, I can imagine one reason why Andrei would keep the flamethrower in his haven. He would probably would want some heavy firepower if going after the prince - even if he can't use it himself. And it is possible that he simply doesn't trust his minions not to burn the place down with it before the attack.

I fear that all our reasoning doesn't matter in the end, because I just can't get the coffins to work as containers . Adding a trunk looks out of place like it was indeed only placed there to provide the weapon. So unless I find another way to do it, both weapons will stay where they are. Which isn't that bad as most players would never know the WoD background of the Ra blade anyway...

 

[Zero Credibility]

My suggestion is that you still put the blade in Andrei's haven. But instead of placing it in the coffin, hide it somewhere close to the place where he appears. Maybe on the ledge where he gives his speech, maybe hide it behind some other object, maybe submerse it in one of the blood pools or stab it into some gore. I think there are plenty of places where it might be hidden in there - when I was first playing the game I was disappointed that there was nothing of value to be found in a place like that. And it would make sense for Andrei to hide the weapon - both for its value and as a potential backup weapon if needed. I'm not saying that you make the blade impossible to find (although I could live with that - the damn thing really doesn't fit anywhere in the game), but merely somewhat difficult or at least not completely apparent - because it would make sense and because that way you could make the inspection feat marginally less useless.

And on a completely unrelated note, I found a bug involving the containers in the player's havens that can be used to make the character practically unkillable by non-aggravated damage. I can give you the details if you don't know about it already.

 

[Wesp5]

My suggestion is that you still put the blade in Andrei's haven. But instead of placing it in the coffin, hide it somewhere close to the place where he appears.

I'll think about it but wouldn't that again look very strange? Even with the reasoning that he himself would not need it, it would be much too handy for any enemy entering his lair and it wouldn't be the proper place for a famous Sabbat weapon as well. At that time in the game inspection should be high enough to find it and most people will never know about the Sabbat background and only again wonder about the bad game design. Also some people actually liked the placing of the Ra blade in the last patch .

And on a completely unrelated note, I found a bug involving the containers in the player's havens that can be used to make the character practically unkillable by non-aggravated damage. I can give you the details if you don't know about it already.

I never heard of that before, please explain! Also we have some problems with wrong models so if you know of anyone who can edit these, we would appreciate any info!

 

[Zero Credibility]

I'll think about it but wouldn't that again look very strange? Even with the reasoning that he himself would not need it, it would be much too handy for any enemy entering his lair and it wouldn't be the proper place for a famous Sabbat weapon as well. At that time in the game inspection should be high enough to find it and most people will never know about the Sabbat background and only again wonder about the bad game design. Also some people actually liked the placing of the Ra blade in the last patch .

The blade is not really a famous Sabbat weapon - it's just that the secret cult that made it is working most openly through the Sabbat. As far as the setting is concerned of all the characters in the game only Andrei and Pisha (fits the cult profile very much) would be the ones with any chance of having it. As no sane cultist would ever trade it, the only option left is for the player to take it by force from Andrei.

Besides, I like this option because it puts the blade very close to it's original position. I think it can be made to work - if the blade can be hidden well. You could raise the inspection feat requirement for noticing the weapon to at least 6 - that way only characters with high perception AND investigation skill, auspex or Malkavian background could notice it outright.

I never heard of that before, please explain! Also we have some problems with wrong models so if you know of anyone who can edit these, we would appreciate any info!

It's simple actually. All you need is an armor (any will do, but heavy clothing is best) and a container in your haven. First put the armor on. Then open the container and use the "give" option to put the same armor in the container without putting it off first. You now have the appearance and bonuses of wearing the armor without actually having it. Now take the armor back from the container and put it on once again to receive the bonuses again - giving you double bash and lethal soaks. You can repeat this over and over again, gaining cumulative bonuses every time. This is best done with heavy clothing, as heavier armor also gives a cumulative dexterity penalty. Unfortunately I can't help you with that other problem.

 

[Wesp5]

Besides, I like this option because it puts the blade very close to it's original position. I think it can be made to work - if the blade can be hidden well. You could raise the inspection feat requirement for noticing the weapon to at least 6 - that way only characters with high perception AND investigation skill, auspex or Malkavian background could notice it outright.

I'll see if I can find a place that would look okay...

This is best done with heavy clothing, as heavier armor also gives a cumulative dexterity penalty. Unfortunately I can't help you with that other problem.

Hmmm, I don't know if I can solve that one either but thanks for the hint...