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Warcraft III: Reforged - now with lowest user metacritic score of all time

Daedalos

Arcane
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
5,559
Location
Denmark
it's really sad to see them bungle up this classic game.

I mean the starcraft remaster was pretty fucking great, so, this just comes as depressing news.

But it's hardly surprising given how Blizzard continues to fuck up their own brand to the point of not being recognizable for what made them famous in the first place.

Long gone are the studios with ultra nerds that also are the CEOs and CTOs and can actually make decisions on their own.

It's a sad development, but an unsurprising one as the games industry has grown into a large beast.

When something becomes popular, it attracts all the bloodsucking and money grubbing retards like flies on shit, and the budgets explode into the stars as people try to make BIGGUR games, that ultimately end up as half of what the old games was, for 6 times the ressources spent.
 

ChaDargo

Arcane
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
425
Location
Texas
it's really sad to see them bungle up this classic game.

I mean the starcraft remaster was pretty fucking great, so, this just comes as depressing news.

But it's hardly surprising given how Blizzard continues to fuck up their own brand to the point of not being recognizable for what made them famous in the first place.

Long gone are the studios with ultra nerds that also are the CEOs and CTOs and can actually make decisions on their own.

It's a sad development, but an unsurprising one as the games industry has grown into a large beast.

When something becomes popular, it attracts all the bloodsucking and money grubbing retards like flies on shit, and the budgets explode into the stars as people try to make BIGGUR games, that ultimately end up as half of what the old games was, for 6 times the ressources spent.

The SC remaster wasn't great at all. There were signs of this shit long ago. They're not fucking up their brand. It's a weird thing: they are haf-assedly taking over their brand. They've been run over by the Korean market for years without any say in their property rights. It's a weird shitstorm of taking back their property rights while ruining their property. Blizzard has no fucking clue what they're doing lol
 

Daedalos

Arcane
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
5,559
Location
Denmark
it's really sad to see them bungle up this classic game.

I mean the starcraft remaster was pretty fucking great, so, this just comes as depressing news.

But it's hardly surprising given how Blizzard continues to fuck up their own brand to the point of not being recognizable for what made them famous in the first place.

Long gone are the studios with ultra nerds that also are the CEOs and CTOs and can actually make decisions on their own.

It's a sad development, but an unsurprising one as the games industry has grown into a large beast.

When something becomes popular, it attracts all the bloodsucking and money grubbing retards like flies on shit, and the budgets explode into the stars as people try to make BIGGUR games, that ultimately end up as half of what the old games was, for 6 times the ressources spent.

The SC remaster wasn't great at all. There were signs of this shit long ago. They're not fucking up their brand. It's a weird thing: they are haf-assedly taking over their brand. They've been run over by the Korean market for years without any say in their property rights. It's a weird shitstorm of taking back their property rights while ruining their property. Blizzard has no fucking clue what they're doing lol

What specific parts about the SC remaster didn't you like?
 

alighieri

Educated
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
89
original wc3 artstyle is pretty shit too compared to wc2 ironically.
I agree with this.

Also, all the assholery aside, I don't fully understand the surprise and shock at blizz game looking like utter shit? Diablo 1 and Warcraft 2, their last good looking games, were already a couple of years ago, poor and outdated graphics are pretty much their forte for a long time now.

The style of WC3 was inferior to WC2 but the art itself was professional and high quality.

Same with Diablo 3. Shit style compared to the original, but you can't say the product doesn't feel expensive.

This, however, feels like some mod that was abandoned mid development.

I still remember my first thoughts on playing Warcraft 3 for the first time all those years ago. They were: "why does this look so ugly? It is almost as bad as Mario 64".

I suppose later on I got used to the graphics and they didn't get much in the way of the game, but it was still annoying and I can't understand what you've seen in them.

Mario 64? What are you, some kind of Zoomer?

The game was released during the age of early 3D. In no way the game looked any worse than other 3D releases from that time like Battle Realms or Empire Earth or Dark Reign 2 or what else was there back then, and in fact it looked better. The way the game moved, the variety in the terrain, all those little details they slapped everywhere. I remember when i loaded Battle Realms a few years ago i was shocked at how technically inferior it looked compared to Warcraft 3, where as back in 2002 they seemed comparable to me.

Maybe you are right and it looked better than the 3d of the time. But it still was rather bad. People frequently say the older 3d aged badly, but I thought it was always bad, to be honest.

As for being a zoomer, I don't really know what that is. I thought about Mario 64 because both games had exaggerated bright colours and simple textures. It was what came to my mind at the time, so take that as you will.

tbh I think Mario 64 or even Zelda: OoT aged pretty well graphic wise as they didn't try to be realistic. Games that tried to have realistic graphics aged pretty bad in my opinion. While games like Thief, Half-Life or Gothic are still top-notch gameplay wise, their graphic looks like shit today.
 

Zer0wing

Cipher
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
2,607
Is there a way to downgrade the base WC3 from 1.31.1 to a lower version?
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
Patron
Developer
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
16,947
Location
Pannonia
Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Is there a way to downgrade the base WC3 from 1.31.1 to a lower version?
maxresdefault.jpg
 

Jigby

Augur
Joined
May 9, 2009
Messages
332
Heroes were cool, I just wish maps didn't require to grind neutral mooks in the forest for xp. Concept of an elite unit gaining powers by participating in battles is pretty alrite for a skrimish based RTS. Also I doubt hero units were invented by wc3, they were already in warlords battlecry games
Starcraft had heroes.
Myths had veterans and pretty much all units were named.

The only thing WC3 brought to the table was 3D calarts.
Warcraft's heroes were all about introducing persistence to the genre, which is not the case with Starcraft, therefore the heroes there perform a significantly different function. Not sure about Myth. If you look at the early W3 design promises, persistence in general was supposed to play the major part, persistent heroes, persistent world where you choose missions instead of the classical linear compartmentalized RTS mission structure, etc. Most of that was scrapped obviously. Still, the heroes in wc3 have their moments, I particularly like how they played around with progression in Frozen Throne, where they inverted it, i.e. Arthas becoming weaker with missions completed.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,616
Heroes were cool, I just wish maps didn't require to grind neutral mooks in the forest for xp. Concept of an elite unit gaining powers by participating in battles is pretty alrite for a skrimish based RTS. Also I doubt hero units were invented by wc3, they were already in warlords battlecry games
Starcraft had heroes.
Myths had veterans and pretty much all units were named.

The only thing WC3 brought to the table was 3D calarts.
Warcraft's heroes were all about introducing persistence to the genre, which is not the case with Starcraft, therefore the heroes there perform a significantly different function. Not sure about Myth. If you look at the early W3 design promises, persistence in general was supposed to play the major part, persistent heroes, persistent world where you choose missions instead of the classical linear compartmentalized RTS mission structure, etc. Most of that was scrapped obviously. Still, the heroes in wc3 have their moments, I particularly like how they played around with progression in Frozen Throne, where they inverted it, i.e. Arthas becoming weaker with missions completed.
The Rexxar campaign is a lot closer to how they imagined Warcraft 3 when they first started working on it.
 

Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,533
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
I spent part of the weekend playing the campaign on Hard. I heard that matchmaking was borked, so I just kept to the campaign. It's mixed so far. On one hand, I was not too keen on Blizzard changing the campaign much, but I still had hoped they would increase the difficulty.

-With Culling of Stratholme, I feel Blizzard unintentionally made the mission even easier. Provided you leveled Divine Shield to tier 3 (45 second immunity, 60 second cooldown or 15 seconds without bubble), Arthas can solo-kill Malganis. Since Malganis can barely collect zombies, it makes the mission rather simple. Yet, Blizzard changed it to have Malganis also drop Robes of the Magi, Health Stones, and other +6 attribute items each time you kill him. With these items, Arthas can steamroll the map for the most part. One change I welcome, however, is that once you kill Malganis his forces immediately rush your base, which added some excitement to the mission.

-Fall of Silvermoon was mixed. I enjoyed the inclusion of new elven heroes to fight, but the AI needed to be more aggressive with unit creation and/or the ability to resurrect said heroes. Absent those changes, you can easily just grind them down. Although probably not optimal, I loved just spamming Unholy Frenzy on mass Crypt Fiends and watching everything die.

-The last Undead mission was decent. The final rush was larger than I remember and it really came down to how well I managed the prior waves.​

In terms of bugs, the campaign has been smooth (so far...), although some of the animations could use a touch-up. The menu screens are weird though, between weird load times and inconsistencies.
 
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Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
4,688
Starcraft had heroes.
Myths had veterans and pretty much all units were named.

The only thing WC3 brought to the table was 3D calarts.
What WC3 brought to the table was that heroes weren't just renamed basic units with slightly different stats - they were stronger than any unit (with room to grow), had distinct visuals and unique abilities.

The heroes worked well in the campaigns, it's their addition to the skirmish that was questionable.
They spiced up the combat. Otherwise it'd be just a regular RTS.
 

pomenitul

Arbiter
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
Messages
979
Location
μεταβολή
mfw

2019-05-03-image.jpg


…except unlike Sega et al., Blizzard won't acknowledge their failure, then return to the drawing board and deliver a palatable product.
 

Olinser

Savant
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
977
Location
Denial
We did have a brief resurgence in the form of DoW 1, though. That was the last great RTS.
I would consider World in Conflict to be last great Rts had so much fun with it. I found it funny how Wargame: Red Dragon from 2014 looks like shit compared to it.

SC 2 Wings of Liberty wasnt bad. I would say the last good blizzard game.


I did enjoy Wings of Liberty, and I still enjoy watching pro Starcraft 2.

Despite Blizzard's best efforts to abandon them, it is actually their most popular e-sport. I mean this year WTF, they made them chain-play through the bracket in a single day at Blizzcon.

Now that ESL is in charge of it, it will probably get much more popular thanks to people that actually care about it running it. As opposed to Overshit which has this endless hype train for terrible ratings because nobody wants to watch the confused mess that is Overwatch.
 

Olinser

Savant
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
977
Location
Denial
I spent part of the weekend playing the campaign on Hard. I heard that matchmaking was borked, so I just kept to the campaign. It's mixed so far. On one hand, I was not too keen on Blizzard changing the campaign much, but I still had hoped they would increase the difficulty.

-With Culling of Stratholme, I feel Blizzard unintentionally made the mission even easier. Provided you leveled Divine Shield to tier 3 (45 second immunity, 60 second cooldown or 15 seconds without bubble), Arthas can solo-kill Malganis. Since Malganis can barely collect zombies, it makes the mission rather simple. Yet, Blizzard changed it to have Malganis also drop Robes of the Magi, Health Stones, and other +6 attribute items each time you kill him. With these items, Arthas can steamroll the map for the most part. One change I welcome, however, is that once you kill Malganis his forces immediately rush your base, which added some excitement to the mission.

-Fall of Silvermoon was mixed. I enjoyed the inclusion of new elven heroes to fight, but the AI needed to be more aggressive with unit creation and/or the ability to resurrect said heroes. Absent those changes, you can easily just grind them down. Although probably not optimal, I loved just spamming Unholy Frenzy on mass Crypt Fiends and watching everything die.

-The last Undead mission was decent. The final rush was larger than I remember and it really came down to how well I managed the prior waves.​

In terms of bugs, the campaign has been smooth (so far...), although some of the animations could use a touch-up. The menu screens are weird though, between weird load times and inconsistencies.

They made the entire RoC campaigns easier because they forced it into modern balance. Previously if you played the RoC campaign it had the original units and was never affected by patch balancing. So a whole host of stuff became much better. Human campaign in particular because you're forced to use Paladin hero, the fact that Devotion Aura is now 2/3/4 instead of 1/2/3 as it originally was is a BIG DEAL, just as an example. So your units effectively have +1 armor than they would previously.

And of course there's the fact that Low Upkeep and High Upkeep are at 50/80 rather than 40/70, which is a REALLY BIG DEAL in most missions.

And of course the fact that heroes now have Hero damage instead of normal damage, and the heavy units like Knights/Abominations/Bears/Tauren now have the new Heavy armor that takes extra damage from Magic instead of Piercing.

And for Night Elves the big one is that Protectors have Piercing instead of Siege damage so they're actually useful as defense.

Plus the various unit buffs/rebalancing that have happened over the years.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,149
I spent part of the weekend playing the campaign on Hard. I heard that matchmaking was borked, so I just kept to the campaign. It's mixed so far. On one hand, I was not too keen on Blizzard changing the campaign much, but I still had hoped they would increase the difficulty.

-With Culling of Stratholme, I feel Blizzard unintentionally made the mission even easier. Provided you leveled Divine Shield to tier 3 (45 second immunity, 60 second cooldown or 15 seconds without bubble), Arthas can solo-kill Malganis. Since Malganis can barely collect zombies, it makes the mission rather simple. Yet, Blizzard changed it to have Malganis also drop Robes of the Magi, Health Stones, and other +6 attribute items each time you kill him. With these items, Arthas can steamroll the map for the most part. One change I welcome, however, is that once you kill Malganis his forces immediately rush your base, which added some excitement to the mission.

-Fall of Silvermoon was mixed. I enjoyed the inclusion of new elven heroes to fight, but the AI needed to be more aggressive with unit creation and/or the ability to resurrect said heroes. Absent those changes, you can easily just grind them down. Although probably not optimal, I loved just spamming Unholy Frenzy on mass Crypt Fiends and watching everything die.

-The last Undead mission was decent. The final rush was larger than I remember and it really came down to how well I managed the prior waves.​

In terms of bugs, the campaign has been smooth (so far...), although some of the animations could use a touch-up. The menu screens are weird though, between weird load times and inconsistencies.

Supposedly March of the Scourge had the enemy liches removed according to what I've read elsewhere, can you confirm? That seems like a huge nerf to what was (IMO) the only difficult map of the human campaign.

What exactly prevented you from killing Malganis with divine shield in the original game? I don't recall anything special that would stop you if you had level 3. Personally I always go devotion aura so I never tried this, mission was fairly easy either way. If you just mean that the items make the later missions easier then OK, but Heroes tended to get pretty OP anyway.

Did they improve the early undead missions any? Pre Fall of Silvermoon basically had no strategy except zerging with max supply of ghouls and skeletons.
 

Olinser

Savant
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
977
Location
Denial
I spent part of the weekend playing the campaign on Hard. I heard that matchmaking was borked, so I just kept to the campaign. It's mixed so far. On one hand, I was not too keen on Blizzard changing the campaign much, but I still had hoped they would increase the difficulty.

-With Culling of Stratholme, I feel Blizzard unintentionally made the mission even easier. Provided you leveled Divine Shield to tier 3 (45 second immunity, 60 second cooldown or 15 seconds without bubble), Arthas can solo-kill Malganis. Since Malganis can barely collect zombies, it makes the mission rather simple. Yet, Blizzard changed it to have Malganis also drop Robes of the Magi, Health Stones, and other +6 attribute items each time you kill him. With these items, Arthas can steamroll the map for the most part. One change I welcome, however, is that once you kill Malganis his forces immediately rush your base, which added some excitement to the mission.

-Fall of Silvermoon was mixed. I enjoyed the inclusion of new elven heroes to fight, but the AI needed to be more aggressive with unit creation and/or the ability to resurrect said heroes. Absent those changes, you can easily just grind them down. Although probably not optimal, I loved just spamming Unholy Frenzy on mass Crypt Fiends and watching everything die.

-The last Undead mission was decent. The final rush was larger than I remember and it really came down to how well I managed the prior waves.​

In terms of bugs, the campaign has been smooth (so far...), although some of the animations could use a touch-up. The menu screens are weird though, between weird load times and inconsistencies.

Supposedly March of the Scourge had the enemy liches removed according to what I've read elsewhere, can you confirm? That seems like a huge nerf to what was (IMO) the only difficult map of the human campaign.

What exactly prevented you from killing Malganis with divine shield in the original game? I don't recall anything special that would stop you if you had level 3. Personally I always go devotion aura so I never tried this, mission was fairly easy either way. If you just mean that the items make the later missions easier then OK, but Heroes tended to get pretty OP anyway.

Did they improve the early undead missions any? Pre Fall of Silvermoon basically had no strategy except zerging with max supply of ghouls and skeletons.

Nothing prevented you from Divine Shielding it before either. But the mission is so damn easy its just not necessary to cheese it.

March of the Scourge still had liches as I recall.

And no. Not much strategy early on because you're completely limited to ghouls meat wagons and necromancers so ghoul/skellie zerg is pretty much the only strategy until you get Crypt Fiends. About the only significant difference that I saw in the Undead campaign was that the Dalaran attack was completely different, much more linear, the archmages are basically in a straight line so you don't walk through 2 minutes of the dumb anti-undead field before you found the archmage and you didn't have to clear a big base. They added a small side quest with 9 mages to kill that give you a bunch of golems and some weak items.

Nothing in particular for the Orc campaign was markedly different that I can recall. The only big one that I saw was that the final mission for some dumbfuck reason the Human base DID NOT have Jaina in it. So they're even weaker and more useless than before because they sit there with 0/0 never upgrading and can't even deal with the Infernal attacks without some kind of help.

I'm still working through the NELF campaign - just finished that stupid rush mission on hard. Seriously the stupid timer is so goddamn fast that basically the only way possible to do it is build up a force, rush through the orc base and hope you have enough left after rushing through to deal with the guardians.
 

Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,533
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
Supposedly March of the Scourge had the enemy liches removed according to what I've read elsewhere, can you confirm? That seems like a huge nerf to what was (IMO) the only difficult map of the human campaign.

What exactly prevented you from killing Malganis with divine shield in the original game? I don't recall anything special that would stop you if you had level 3. Personally I always go devotion aura so I never tried this, mission was fairly easy either way. If you just mean that the items make the later missions easier then OK, but Heroes tended to get pretty OP anyway.

Did they improve the early undead missions any? Pre Fall of Silvermoon basically had no strategy except zerging with max supply of ghouls and skeletons.

Is March of the Scourge where you have to defend the city for 30 minutes? If so, then I can confirm. The Liches stayed in their base the entire time, which felt like a bug in retrospect. Granted, the final enemy wave(s) felt stronger than I remember. If the Liches joined in the final waves, it would make for a much better mission.

As for Culling of Stratholme, I would not call Divine Shield mandatory, it is just an easy way to cheese the mission in the original. Compared to the original, Divine Shield cheese seems even better now due to the items and what appears to be a faster Holy Light cooldown (can kill Malganis in no time). Also, you are correct about the heroes, but I do not recall +6 attribute items dropping that early and for a task that is rather easy. Consequently, the campaign snowballs even harder.

Pre-Fall of Silvermoon missions were the same (easy), whereas the Fall of Silvermoon and the last mission stood out for different reasons. Fall of Silvermoon had unique enemy heroes with little to no support. For example, one had mass invisibility and could ambush you. The problem is that even if you lost, you could just come back with a new army, while that mage had no additional reinforcements. Perhaps this was a bug? In contrast, the last minute rush in the final undead mission took me by surprise. Up until the final rush, everything was rather manageable, and then this giant force of knights, sorceresses, and gryphon riders just descend on you. It was just far stonger than I remember.

Edit: Also, with Fall of Silvermoon, Slyvannas serves as a second hero, as opposed to just a special banshee. Her ability kit is virtually identical to Dark Ranger, except instead of Black Arrow she has Howl of Terror (50% damage reduction).
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,149
Is March of the Scourge where you have to defend the city for 30 minutes? If so, then I can confirm. The Liches stayed in their base the entire time, which felt like a bug in retrospect. Granted, the final enemy wave(s) felt stronger than I remember. If the Liches joined in the final waves, it would make for a much better mission.

Yep. Originally normal would have them attack with level 5 liches and hard level 6 I believe, so on hard they'd be casting their ultimate to utterly demolish any static defenses or farm walls you made. Of course the fact that you are also limited to footmen for melee who get utterly raped by frost nova also makes it hard.

I'm sure someone will extract the level files and compare the two versions eventually. I remember loading up the levels in the map editor just to poke around and figure out all the secrets, probably 15 years ago. Most of the maps are pretty heavily scripted with static wave compositions and attack times.
 
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Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,533
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
Is March of the Scourge where you have to defend the city for 30 minutes? If so, then I can confirm. The Liches stayed in their base the entire time, which felt like a bug in retrospect. Granted, the final enemy wave(s) felt stronger than I remember. If the Liches joined in the final waves, it would make for a much better mission.

Yep. Originally normal would have them attack with level 5 liches and hard level 6 I believe, so on hard they'd be casting their ultimate to utterly demolish any static defenses or farm walls you made.

I'm sure someone will extract the level files and compare the two versions eventually. I remember loading up the levels in the map editor just to poke around and figure out all the secrets, probably 15 years ago. Most of the maps are pretty heavily scripted with static wave compositions and attack times.
The Liches were present, they just did not join the waves. I do not recall the levels, but I can easily check later tonight.
 

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