Incline Warhammer 40,000 Lore Thread

[Mangoose]

Hrud actually use human ships to some extend. The Xenology book (it contained autopsy reports on several xenos spiecies and some back stories on them) mentioned that they sometimes live on the abbandoned decks and such and basicaly move around as stowaways.

Gud buk. Has picsures!

 

[Louis_Cypher]

You probably all know that miniature companies like Wargames Atlantic make great looking generic sci-fi plastic kits, as stand-ins or analogues for Warhammer 40K units or Star Wars units, avoiding copyrights in a way that GW might find cheeky or irksome, or for use as generic sci-fi troopers in miniature-agnostic wargames like say OnePageRules "Dark Future" or Osprey Games "Stargrave". They are very cheap compared to GW, and are very generous with numbers of miniatures in the box. They are banned in official 40K competition, but obviously not at home.

Size comparison of some 28mm scale miniature ranges, or board game pieces:

This isn't really the right place for commercial stuff, as we are here for Warhammer 40,000 lore, and we all know the score when it comes to GW's pricing... but anyway check out a price comparison I again noticed today. I just thought this was interesting to see. Although not every unit is this bad, i.e. you can pick up certain Citadel infantry on a sprue for £15 on ebay, I've paid £35 for five Citadel miniatures new before. A comparison of similar human infantry:

• - Warhammer 40,000 unit of Death Korps veterans, included in the Kill Team starter box; £40 for 10.
• - Miniature-agnostic type generic "definitely not Guardmen, not Stormtroopers" Eisenkern, £25 for 20.
• - Miniature-agnostic type generic "definitely not Guardmen, not Stormtroopers" Jagers; £25 for 24.

Almost half the price and 2.5 times the miniatures. Of course, there are gaps in the plastic ranges of these smaller companies, like specific units, or perhaps having no tanks, but if you wanted say 20 Catachan jungle fighters as infantry, it's arguably a better option than GW right now, since the miniatures for specific regiments are ancient, and there are also thousands of unknown regiments.

Some of the "Marauder" faction's sculpts for "Deadzone", by Mantic Games, are a bit more expensive, but look like like old Orks, complete with that ape-like grin, and clothes that humourously copy human military herarldry from history or WW2 - keeping that old edition design aesthetic alive - honestly more beautiful than some Citadel miniatures:

You get other companies doing it too:

If I wasn't into 40K lore/heraldry, enough that I want official sculpts, seen in codeces, or just for their beauty, plus wasn't a frugal adult with low outgoings, I would be much more inclined toward just playing 40K with these units, or using them with a generic sci-fi rules set, making my own story. It would work for Guardsmen regiments in particular, and Orks to an extent, but perhaps not say Necrons or Eldar ranges. Whatever we reason in our heads, in terms of science fiction world-building, will probably feel much more naturalistic than a lot of what passes for science fiction novels these days. No over-complicated humanistic focus on character, just projection of military power and the pure logistics of war. I don't want to see GW out of business or anything, but their recent range in particular require a sanguine acceptance of monetary loss.

At worst, you can pay £120 just for 15 miniatures, if you go for a particularily expensive army, like a low-model count elite one, along the lines of Votann or Custodes. This is what I mean when I say I would accept lower detail, more limited poses, more obvious mould lines, for cheaper infantry. Even board game quality miniatures, such as stuff like "Star Wars: Imperial Assault", are in honesty, good enough for wargaming:

I think GW ride on the lore, the depth, the culture of Warhammer hobbyists, and would be in trouble without the setting being as good as it is. Like we have said, newer wargames might lean toward woke or progressive themes these days, just by virtue of DEI targets, globalist investors, etc, but a wargame that is miniature agnostic might be pleasingly free of propaganda in the fluff.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

You probably all know that miniature companies like Wargames Atlantic make great looking generic sci-fi plastic kits, as stand-ins or analogues for Warhammer 40K units or Star Wars units, avoiding copyrights in a way that GW might find cheeky or irksome, or for use as generic sci-fi troopers in miniature-agnostic wargames like say OnePageRules "Dark Future" or Osprey Games "Stargrave". They are very cheap compared to GW, and are very generous with numbers of miniatures in the box. They are banned in official 40K competition, but obviously not at home.

Size comparison of some 28mm scale miniature ranges, or board game pieces:

This isn't really the right place for commercial stuff, as we are here for Warhammer 40,000 lore, and we all know the score when it comes to GW's pricing... but anyway check out a price comparison I again noticed today. I just thought this was interesting to see. Although not every unit is this bad, i.e. you can pick up certain Citadel infantry on a sprue for £15 on ebay, I've paid £35 for five Citadel miniatures new before. A comparison of similar human infantry:

• - Warhammer 40,000 unit of Death Korps veterans, included in the Kill Team starter box; £40 for 10.
• - Miniature-agnostic type generic "definitely not Guardmen, not Stormtroopers" Eisenkern, £25 for 20.
• - Miniature-agnostic type generic "definitely not Guardmen, not Stormtroopers" Jagers; £25 for 24.

Almost half the price and 2.5 times the miniatures. Of course, there are gaps in the plastic ranges of these smaller companies, like specific units, or perhaps having no tanks, but if you wanted say 20 Catachan jungle fighters as infantry, it's arguably a better option than GW right now, since the miniatures for specific regiments are ancient, and there are also thousands of unknown regiments.

Some of the "Marauder" faction's sculpts for "Deadzone", by Mantic Games, are a bit more expensive, but look like like old Orks, complete with that ape-like grin, and clothes that humourously copy human military herarldry from history or WW2 - keeping that old edition design aesthetic alive - honestly more beautiful than some Citadel miniatures:

You get other companies doing it too:

If I wasn't into 40K lore/heraldry, enough that I want official sculpts, seen in codeces, or just for their beauty, plus wasn't a frugal adult with low outgoings, I would be much more inclined toward just playing 40K with these units, or using them with a generic sci-fi rules set, making my own story. It would work for Guardsmen regiments in particular, and Orks to an extent, but perhaps not say Necrons or Eldar ranges. Whatever we reason in our heads, in terms of science fiction world-building, will probably feel much more naturalistic than a lot of what passes for science fiction novels these days. No over-complicated humanistic focus on character, just projection of military power and the pure logistics of war. I don't want to see GW out of business or anything, but their recent range in particular require a sanguine acceptance of monetary loss.

At worst, you can pay £120 just for 15 miniatures, if you go for a particularily expensive army, like a low-model count elite one, along the lines of Votann or Custodes. This is what I mean when I say I would accept lower detail, more limited poses, more obvious mould lines, for cheaper infantry. Even board game quality miniatures, such as stuff like "Star Wars: Imperial Assault", are in honesty, good enough for wargaming:

I think GW ride on the lore, the depth, the culture of Warhammer hobbyists, and would be in trouble without the setting being as good as it is. Like we have said, newer wargames might lean toward woke or progressive themes these days, just by virtue of DEI targets, globalist investors, etc, but a wargame that is miniature agnostic might be pleasingly free of propaganda in the fluff.

Anvil Industries has some good kits for building Guardsmen. The resin is p. good too.

 

[Akratus II]

Hrud actually use human ships to some extend. The Xenology book (it contained autopsy reports on several xenos spiecies and some back stories on them) mentioned that they sometimes live on the abbandoned decks and such and basicaly move around as stowaways.

Gud buk. Has picsures!

I liked Perturabo's Primarch book, where he wages a major campaign against the Hrud. They're a cool enemy, at least in writing.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

A question for grognards of 40K:

There are two "versions" of the 13th Black Crusade, in 999 M41. The new official canon, from around 2017. The old tournament version, from around 2003. The latter was retconned out of existence, transformed into the new one. What are the salient differences between the two, in terms of lore? What was retconned? What was broadly the same? Was anything of value lost? I vaguely remember the 13th Black Crusade happening as a tournament, back then. I didn't play third edition, I just read lore. I can't really recall what, if any, lore differences it had. Which is the better narrative?

It's now essentially the founding moment of modern 40K, changing the setting hugely; the Fall of Cadia, the Great Rift opening, the Imperium Nihilus being born, the return of Roboute Gulliman, the introduction of Primaris Space Marines, etc, so of essential importance.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

Essentially, the two eras of Warhammer 40,000, as I see it (a Rubicon Primaris so to speak):

• - 1987-2017, 1st to 8th edition, furthest history perpetually in year 998 or 999 M41, on the cusp of the end times
• - 2017-present, 9th to 10th edition, history now going into the new milennium M42, allegedly within the end times

Some key moments in the lore of the first 30 years of Warhammer 40,000: the Tyranid invasion of the galaxy (the 1st Tyrannic War, 2nd Tyrannic War, 3rd Tyrannic War), the Ork invasions of Armageddon (the 2nd & 3rd Armageddon War), the awakening of the Necrons (e.g. Massacre at Sanctuary 101, etc), the Chaos invasion of the Imperium (the 13th Black Crusade). Some key moments in the lore of the last 9 years of Warhammer 40,000: the Chaos invasion of the Imperium (the 13th Black Crusade), the continuing Tyranid invasion of the galaxy (e.g. the Devastation of Baal, the 4th Tyrannic War), the buildup of Human, Ork and Tyranid forces at "Warzone: Octarius", the war over access through the Great Rift at "Warzone: Nachmund".

I hope they don't ever make the colossal mistake of rebooting the setting, rebooting it into some generic crap designed to be inoffensive to as many focus groups as possible, destroying decades of history in a way that was so devastating for Warhammer Fantasy. Just leave the setting perpetually in early M42, never actually reaching the end times, and let gamers make their own narratives.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I hope they don't ever make the colossal mistake of rebooting the setting, rebooting it into some generic crap designed to be inoffensive to as many focus groups as possible, destroying decades of history in a way that was so devastating for Warhammer Fantasy. Just leave the setting perpetually in early M42, never actually reaching the end times, and let gamers make their own narratives.

It’s fiction. If you don’t like how GW handles their intellectual property, then make your own. They’re a business that must make money to survive, and what makes money is continuing the metaplot until it becomes so messy that they need to reboot it, wash rinse repeat. That’s how this has always gone. Blame capitalism and copyright law, I guess.

There’s nothing wrong with reboots. Retellings are a natural part of storytelling. Old stories get retold in new forms as times change. Hercules gets replaced by Superman, Lucy Liu gets cast as Watson, etc. You can’t expect us to keep our stories frozen forever because that’s not how we tell stories. Humans are compelled to invent new stories all the time.

The way nerds approach metaplot and lore is so fucking stupid. You basically hate change because it triggers your nerd autism, fair enough. But your autism runs completely counter to the ongoing setting-rewriting metaplots that characterize media franchises. The metaplot is a bad strategy anyway that runs counter to the most important rule of storytelling: stories end. When these corpos keep stories going past any reasonable ending, then the stories rot.

Not only that, but these stupid monopolies strangle the creative industries and prevent new stories from being told, prevent new IPs from being created. So when these rotting dinosaur IPs inevitably shit the bed, there’s no alternatives to jump to. We need new IPs, we need lots of them, and we need them yesterday.

 

[Parsimonious cook]

A question for grognards of 40K:

There are two "versions" of the 13th Black Crusade, in 999 M41. The new official canon, from around 2017. The old tournament version, from around 2003. The latter was retconned out of existence, transformed into the new one. What are the salient differences between the two, in terms of lore? What was retconned? What was broadly the same? Was anything of value lost? I vaguely remember the 13th Black Crusade happening as a tournament, back then. I didn't play third edition, I just read lore. I can't really recall what, if any, lore differences it had. Which is the better narrative?

It's now essentially the founding moment of modern 40K, changing the setting hugely; the Fall of Cadia, the Great Rift opening, the Imperium Nihilus being born, the return of Roboute Gulliman, the introduction of Primaris Space Marines, etc, so of essential importance.

Well I would say that the original narrative (which indeed was based along a global campaign much like the 3rd War of Armageddon, or the later Fall of Medusa V were) wasnt really retconned as much as it received a continuation (ie. the original lore regarding the assault on Cadia remains mostly intact). Originally, Cadia became a target of a stealthy attack by Imperial Guard regiments (Volscani Cataphracts) that secretly turned to Chaos and were expected to arrive to Cadia as reinforcements. This led to the Battle of Tyrok Fields, which was the central lore point of the 2003 Imperial Guard Codex (though the storyline for the whole campaign was fully listed in the Codex Eye of Terror that came out in the same year) - the battle ended with Cadia barely holding its own and basically turning into a "war world" along the lines of Armageddon, with Chaos controling a large part of the surface.

This is where the narrative ended and AFAIK it did not move until the whole Dark Imperium thingy kicked off with the fall of Cadia (ie. Belisarius Cawl working with the Necron dude to activate the pylons and Abaddon responding by crashing a Blackstone fortress into the planet). It seems to me that the original 2003 lore leading up to that moment remains valid - there was a stalemate on the surface which was broken only by the impact of the Blackstone Fortress.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

It seems to me that the original 2003 lore leading up to that moment remains valid - there was a stalemate on the surface which was broken only by the impact of the Blackstone Fortress.

Nice, that explains a lot. For whatever reason, the 40K wiki (not Lexicanum), contains two pages for the 13th Black Crusade, one entitled "13th Black Crusade (original)". I thought that this might mean the differences were really substantial, but it sounds like they can be hand reconciled.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

The way nerds approach metaplot and lore is so fucking stupid.

Look, I just deleted a large reply, and just can't be bothered with this shit any more.

I think you are wide off the mark. Your characterisation of fandoms is also unfair, and smacks of the kind of contempt post-modern creatives have for fans. Fans don't hate "all change", they just hate "bad change". Stop mis-characterising the autistic impulse. They have an instinct for when the axioms underpinning something are being eroded, and understand that it is those axioms upon which everything rests. That's because they have studied the thing out of love, and often know it deeply. Remove an IP's underpinning axioms, it's true appeal, and your company's golden goose is dead, no matter how "young" or "old" your franchise is.

As if senescence comes from mere time, rather than the erosion of a thing's fundamentals, that can occur in 5 minutes or 5000 years.

I fully support more and better franchises. What I don't support is your reasoning. Not all settings need plots for one thing. Settings are not stories. A wargaming one in particular is often a backdrop, not a narrative. Trying to turn "a setting into a narrative" is often how companies mistakenly ruin an IP. Star Trek is an IP, but within Star Trek, James T Kirk lived his life and died. The story ended, but the setting didn't. We know why GW would want to turn setting into a narrative, from a commercial standpoint, but are entitled critique it.

Argument of the subjective idea that time or money should be the arbitors of taste, is what you see time and again when a franchise dies. Supposed fans profuse a hobby, arguing for the primacy of nominalism. That heralds the death of an IP.

That is why RPGCodex piles scorn on such notions, because gatekeeping "truth" is right and morally excellent.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Not all settings need plots for one thing.

I never said they did.

Fans don't hate "all change", they just hate "bad change".

What constitutes bad change can be very subjective.


There are a number of franchises I got into during the expansion era, including reboots and AU spinoffs. I’ve gotten bullied by classic-obsessed autists and left in disgust when the retro era dropped. In many cases, the classic-obsessed autists then complained about the retro era botching the franchise for whatever reason. Or for small IPs funded through kickstarter by fanboys, the retro era was praised for resetting the clock and retconning away everything created after the early classic era… then the fans lost interest after the nostalgia wore off.

I’m sick of it. It’s a vicious cycle.

I don’t mind having settings without ongoing timelines or single canons. I love those. But those don’t make money right now nor have much in the way of communities, outside of markets like Japan where long-running settings like Gundam and Transformers have multiple timelines.

I would love to have multiverses to play with. I’m the sort of person who gets tired of these rotting dinosaur IPs dominating for decades. I want new settings with new ideas, not the same old shit repackaged decade after decade. Less repackaged Star Trek, more new shows like Farscape, Battlestar Galactica, Andromeda, Earth Final Conflict, Cleopatra 2525, Stargate, Dark Matter, Killjoys, etc.

So in a way I’m glad that corpos are sabotaging these long running franchises. It gives opportunities to new creative endeavors that otherwise aren’t possible in this consumerist hellscape.

I fully support more and better franchises.

Great. Then patronize them. I’ve seen plenty of original IPs come out only to wither on the vine.

 

[Mangoose]

The way nerds approach metaplot and lore is so fucking stupid.

They have an instinct for when the axioms underpinning something are being eroded, and understand that it is those axioms upon which everything rests. That's because they have studied the thing out of love, and often know it deeply. Remove an IP's underpinning axioms, it's true appeal, and your company's golden goose is dead, no matter how "young" or "old" your franchise is.

Exact-fuckin-actly. You need to know what truly matters. As you can see from what I've posted, I always post about the absurdity of the setting that comes from its absurdity. Usually I harp on that one specific strength. Not so much anything else.

I'll tolerate/hand-wave things as long as you don't break ^that^. (I mean we have to hand-wave weeaboo Tau anyway lol)

Edit: And tbh this philosophy extends to.. Everything in life. Gotta distinguish between symptoms and causes.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Like, a game I’d love to have would be a setting agnostic game that gives you tools to invent your own settings rather than being restricted to a specific canon.

 

[Mangoose]

Like, a game I’d love to have would be a setting agnostic game that gives you tools to invent your own settings rather than being restricted to a specific canon.

TBH That's what the Black Library kinda allows. Any problem here honestly seems to be the quality of the author himself. There's a huge range of quality and BL seems to be agnostic about it all. As long as it makes $$$ lol.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Like, a game I’d love to have would be a setting agnostic game that gives you tools to invent your own settings rather than being restricted to a specific canon.

TBH That's what the Black Library kinda allows. Any problem here honestly seems to be the quality of the author himself. There's a huge range of quality and BL seems to be agnostic about it all. As long as it makes $$$ lol.

That’s not what I mean. By setting agnostic, I mean you can use the same rules to play a completely different setting without space marines or eldar or whatever. Instead you might play a game with space cowboys, space bugs, and space angels. Or whatever.

Think TSR’s Alternity, or GURPS. Or how D&D has a bazillion settings

 

[Mangoose]

Like, a game I’d love to have would be a setting agnostic game that gives you tools to invent your own settings rather than being restricted to a specific canon.

TBH That's what the Black Library kinda allows. Any problem here honestly seems to be the quality of the author himself. There's a huge range of quality and BL seems to be agnostic about it all. As long as it makes $$$ lol.

That’s not what I mean. By setting agnostic, I mean you can use the same rules to play a completely different setting without space marines or eldar or whatever. Instead you might play a game with space cowboys, space bugs, and space angels. Or whatever.

Think TSR’s Alternity, or GURPS. Or how D&D has a bazillion settings

Ah you mean gameplay wise.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Ah you mean gameplay wise.

Right.

When you have a prebuilt setting, like the 40k galaxy, there’s only so many stories you can tell without changing the established rules. You can invent your own universe, sure, but the tools you have will only take you so far.

In ttrpgs, for example, a lot of groups hack existing games with fixed settings to play other settings even though the game isn’t designed to be used that way. They do this rather than use universal systems like GURPS due to first mover advantage and the network effect making them reliant on games with established communities, even if the lore and rules aren’t what they’re actually looking for.

I absolutely hate that. I buy ttrpg books specifically so that I don’t have to spend effort on making my own rules and settings. But ultimately I find myself doing that anyway because few of the currently supported games do what I want. There’s no shortage of abandonware IPs that do what I want, but good luck finding players. Building a community requires substantial investment, which is easiest when you can invest money into advertising and producing rulebooks. To add insult to injury, copyright law prevents fans from reviving and continuing abandonware IPs even though the publisher has abandoned it for decades or went out of business.

 

[Caim]

Ah you mean gameplay wise.

Right.

When you have a prebuilt setting, like the 40k galaxy, there’s only so many stories you can tell without changing the established rules. You can invent your own universe, sure, but the tools you have will only take you so far.

In ttrpgs, for example, a lot of groups hack existing games with fixed settings to play other settings even though the game isn’t designed to be used that way. They do this rather than use universal systems like GURPS due to first mover advantage and the network effect making them reliant on games with established communities, even if the lore and rules aren’t what they’re actually looking for.

I absolutely hate that. I buy ttrpg books specifically so that I don’t have to spend effort on making my own rules and settings. But ultimately I find myself doing that anyway because few of the currently supported games do what I want. There’s no shortage of abandonware IPs that do what I want, but good luck finding players. Building a community requires substantial investment, which is easiest when you can invest money into advertising and producing rulebooks. To add insult to injury, copyright law prevents fans from reviving and continuing abandonware IPs even though the publisher has abandoned it for decades or went out of business.

Maybe One Page Rules? Sure it has a setting, but it's extremely barebones and not really baked into the systems. They also have a system to make your own units and armies, but that's behind the Patreon paywall.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Making a setting that doesn't have an ongoing overarching timeline but is simply intended as a sandbox for players requires a creator/creative director who intentionally wants to handle things that way and maintains that direction for the entirety of the IP's existence. The thing is, most creators don't design settings that way. Unless it's a tabletop game setting that received only a single book or chapter, every setting accumulates some kind of overarching metaplot involving characters who are basically the writer's mary sues trotting the globe and rewriting the previously established rules. Indeed, most settings are created as support for a story rather than for their own sake.

You can't stop writers and corpos from taking IPs in directions that you disagree with. The only way you're going to have that kind of idealized setting where everything is static is if nobody owns the IP. If nobody owns the IP, then there's no authority to define what is and isn't canon. There's only popular consensus, which nobody is obligated to obey. E.g. classical mythology or the Cthulhu mythos.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

Some design images I came across:

I can't really make out the text on some of them, but it is interesting to see the design process.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

This was suprisingly entertaining:

 

[BrotherFrank]

 

[Akratus II]

"The Iron Warriors fired with impunity, caring nothing that many of the downed gunships fell groundward into the battle still being waged. The burning hulls of destroyed Astartes craft rained onto the killing fields, pulverising Word Bearers and Night Lords more often than they crashed into the few remaining pockets of Raven Guard and Salamanders survivors.

When contacted by Legion commanders protesting the careless destruction, the Iron Warriors captains replied with laughter that bordered on betrayal. 'We are all bleeding today,' an Iron Warriors captain voxed back to Kor Phaeron. 'Have faith, Word Bearer.' The link went dead to the sound of chuckling." -The First Heretic

 

[Louis_Cypher]

 

[Mitleser2020]

https://x.com/gr8_rebellion/status/1828330818550325419