Warhammer Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader - turn-based Warhammer 40k RPG from Owlcat Games - now with Void Shadows DLC

[Camel]

What they might not know is xeno though, like the hilarious case in Janus where everyone thinks Eldar are mutants (and Footfall vice-versa).

But everyone on your ship knows she’s Eldar.

 

[REhorror]

What they might not know is xeno though, like the hilarious case in Janus where everyone thinks Eldar are mutants (and Footfall vice-versa).

But everyone on your ship knows she’s Eldar.

Maybe because your ship people are more knowledgable than the Janus's peasantry.

 

[ArchAngel]

Damage values are ridicilous in Act 4, it was already crazy in Act 3 but wtf.
Enemy damage needs to be cut by 50% but player damage needs to be 1/3 of what it is now. All the talents that stack need some limits like the soldier talent that gives critical damage per hit. Also it is way too easy to achive 100% hit chance, weapon and ballistic skill over 100% needs to give only half its value to crit chance, not full.. and versatility should give +3 or +4 to WS and BS, +5 ramps up way too fast.
And Cassia needs massive nerfs and bug fixes.
And abilities and spells need to follow rules as presented like 1 per round skills need to stop being available as soon as character gets its turn back from some ability in same round..
Even some things like Archmilitant heroic breaks this. For example. You activate it and use your free attack to kill a target that is marked as prey by a party BH with Savour the kill. That BH gets his turn to do his 2 or 3 AP non attack actions but as soon as archmilitant gets its turn back he can do another free attack.. it is busted and stupid..

Of course, agreed on everything, as these are all pretty obvious things. Again, as I said earlier in this thread, it's insane to me that Owlcat let some of this shit go to release, as any mildly experienced player of this type of games, could tell them all that, and massively improve this game in like few fucking hours of work. That's why I doubt if they have anyone remotely competent when it comes to combat, seems like they just were lucky with Pathfinders by mostly just using existing system, while here when they had to actually do more of their own thing, their incompetence became super obvious.

If I was Owlcat, I would immediately hire some autist obsessed with their games like Desiderius, to tell them how to actually do fucking combat that works. They could literally spend few bucks and couple days of work, and avoid going through 4 iterations of the system and it still being fucking retarded

The game has a ton of problems that could easily be fixed with a few hours of work. I am 100% certain that the release was suddenly and dramatically shifted to be vastly earlier than most of them were expecting. Maybe they'd been planning to announce a delay for several months, so they were still on an internal timetable of a year+ out, and then in November when the delay was supposed to be announced management suddenly gave them an ultimatum and they had to scramble to release the game in its present state. I don't know, it's impossible to guess the truth (which is why they should make a formal fucking announcement/apology) but any possibility makes more sense than "they genuinely thought this was a release-ready product"

I do not agree with you considering they told us this is 4th version of their combat system.. this is the best they could come up with lol.. a system where either side wins on turn 1

That's every good CRPG combat comes down to....I think Wasteland 3 also comes down to alpha strike. As well as Nu-Com.

Nope, I played both and played nuXcom (both) on hardest ironman. At best you could try to take out the most dangerous enemy on turn 1 but most of time it was managing enemies either by taking them out, disabling them or finding better cover or moving out of sight so you can fight another round with all your best soldiers alive. Bigger battles often took 5+ rounds.

RT is killing every enemy in turn 1 without them getting a turn if initiative turns out so. Or if they get initiative they wipe out most or all of your guys on turn 1 before you can get a turn. The whole thing is ridiculous. Combat was actually fun in prologue and act 1 and parts of act 2. It was also kind of fun in parts of Act 3 as this new concept of you can lose everyone in 1 turn was just starting to show up and my people were just getting into power of being able to do the same and I thought, OK that is just a few battles here for a change but then every battle is like that..

 

[ArchAngel]

and she herself did not know she was comitting heresy.

That's rather the point, isn't it? That's why they have to be so strict with heresy, because people can slip into it without realizing, just by dipping their toes into something that seems innocent at first. That's partly why the whole scenario is so desperately grim and tragic: you think the IoM are "fascists" until you realize the Lovecraftian levels of horror they're up against.

With the lore, what the scenario reminds me of is the concept of "fitness peaks" when people talk about evolutionary biology. Yes, the empire is tired, rigid, sclerotic, authoritarian, unable to innovate, falling into decay, etc., but it's difficult to see what else it could be, because the empire is on a "fitness peak" where they at least have a bag of tricks that enables mankind to survive in an incredibly hostile universe, and while there may be higher fitness peaks over there on the horizon somewhere, there doesn't seem to be any way of getting to them without going down first (i.e. falling apart, to the tune of mass horror and megadeaths), so they're stuck where they are.

Just today I learned that wider population does not even know about Chaos, Chaos Gods and other horrors of the Warp and Inquisition makes sure it stays that way. That makes everything different and IoM is even more fascistic that I assumed, even going into full blown Nacism.
Since people do not even understand anything about the power they are calling and using means they didn't really choose it, they are all just pawns in a greater war. So when whole groups of people get punished for it by the IoM they are not punished for their actions but for their weakness. For not being able to understand and resist something they probably had little chance of resisting.
It is not that different than Nazi goal of removing all weak from their society which included all arians with any kind of sickness or birth defect.
IoM is just working all weak ones to death and only removing them sooner once their "weakness" becomes too much of a problem..

Dude, you're arguing from the wrong foundations here.

This is a setting without justice and without even a telos to it. There are no real innocents, everyone has dirty hands in some way given what is required to keep stuff like chaos at bay.

That is what the cover of the setting tells you but it is interesting to dig deeper and look at details.

 

[REhorror]

Damage values are ridicilous in Act 4, it was already crazy in Act 3 but wtf.
Enemy damage needs to be cut by 50% but player damage needs to be 1/3 of what it is now. All the talents that stack need some limits like the soldier talent that gives critical damage per hit. Also it is way too easy to achive 100% hit chance, weapon and ballistic skill over 100% needs to give only half its value to crit chance, not full.. and versatility should give +3 or +4 to WS and BS, +5 ramps up way too fast.
And Cassia needs massive nerfs and bug fixes.
And abilities and spells need to follow rules as presented like 1 per round skills need to stop being available as soon as character gets its turn back from some ability in same round..
Even some things like Archmilitant heroic breaks this. For example. You activate it and use your free attack to kill a target that is marked as prey by a party BH with Savour the kill. That BH gets his turn to do his 2 or 3 AP non attack actions but as soon as archmilitant gets its turn back he can do another free attack.. it is busted and stupid..

Of course, agreed on everything, as these are all pretty obvious things. Again, as I said earlier in this thread, it's insane to me that Owlcat let some of this shit go to release, as any mildly experienced player of this type of games, could tell them all that, and massively improve this game in like few fucking hours of work. That's why I doubt if they have anyone remotely competent when it comes to combat, seems like they just were lucky with Pathfinders by mostly just using existing system, while here when they had to actually do more of their own thing, their incompetence became super obvious.

If I was Owlcat, I would immediately hire some autist obsessed with their games like Desiderius, to tell them how to actually do fucking combat that works. They could literally spend few bucks and couple days of work, and avoid going through 4 iterations of the system and it still being fucking retarded

The game has a ton of problems that could easily be fixed with a few hours of work. I am 100% certain that the release was suddenly and dramatically shifted to be vastly earlier than most of them were expecting. Maybe they'd been planning to announce a delay for several months, so they were still on an internal timetable of a year+ out, and then in November when the delay was supposed to be announced management suddenly gave them an ultimatum and they had to scramble to release the game in its present state. I don't know, it's impossible to guess the truth (which is why they should make a formal fucking announcement/apology) but any possibility makes more sense than "they genuinely thought this was a release-ready product"

I do not agree with you considering they told us this is 4th version of their combat system.. this is the best they could come up with lol.. a system where either side wins on turn 1

That's every good CRPG combat comes down to....I think Wasteland 3 also comes down to alpha strike. As well as Nu-Com.

Nope, I played both and played nuXcom (both) on hardest ironman. At best you could try to take out the most dangerous enemy on turn 1 but most of time it was managing enemies either by taking them out, disabling them or finding better cover or moving out of sight so you can fight another round with all your best soldiers alive. Bigger battles often took 5+ rounds.

RT is killing every enemy in turn 1 without them getting a turn if initiative turns out so. Or if they get initiative they wipe out most or all of your guys on turn 1 before you can get a turn. The whole thing is ridiculous. Combat was actually fun in prologue and act 1 and parts of act 2. It was also kind of fun in parts of Act 3 as this new concept of you can lose everyone in 1 turn was just starting to show up and my people were just getting into power of being able to do the same and I thought, OK that is just a few battles here for a change but then every battle is like that..

Well, to be fair, mine is 2 turns I guess, 1 turn to setup, 1 turn to do the ultie to Cassia/Argenta/Pascal.

 

[ArchAngel]

Damage values are ridicilous in Act 4, it was already crazy in Act 3 but wtf.
Enemy damage needs to be cut by 50% but player damage needs to be 1/3 of what it is now. All the talents that stack need some limits like the soldier talent that gives critical damage per hit. Also it is way too easy to achive 100% hit chance, weapon and ballistic skill over 100% needs to give only half its value to crit chance, not full.. and versatility should give +3 or +4 to WS and BS, +5 ramps up way too fast.
And Cassia needs massive nerfs and bug fixes.
And abilities and spells need to follow rules as presented like 1 per round skills need to stop being available as soon as character gets its turn back from some ability in same round..
Even some things like Archmilitant heroic breaks this. For example. You activate it and use your free attack to kill a target that is marked as prey by a party BH with Savour the kill. That BH gets his turn to do his 2 or 3 AP non attack actions but as soon as archmilitant gets its turn back he can do another free attack.. it is busted and stupid..

Of course, agreed on everything, as these are all pretty obvious things. Again, as I said earlier in this thread, it's insane to me that Owlcat let some of this shit go to release, as any mildly experienced player of this type of games, could tell them all that, and massively improve this game in like few fucking hours of work. That's why I doubt if they have anyone remotely competent when it comes to combat, seems like they just were lucky with Pathfinders by mostly just using existing system, while here when they had to actually do more of their own thing, their incompetence became super obvious.

If I was Owlcat, I would immediately hire some autist obsessed with their games like Desiderius, to tell them how to actually do fucking combat that works. They could literally spend few bucks and couple days of work, and avoid going through 4 iterations of the system and it still being fucking retarded

The game has a ton of problems that could easily be fixed with a few hours of work. I am 100% certain that the release was suddenly and dramatically shifted to be vastly earlier than most of them were expecting. Maybe they'd been planning to announce a delay for several months, so they were still on an internal timetable of a year+ out, and then in November when the delay was supposed to be announced management suddenly gave them an ultimatum and they had to scramble to release the game in its present state. I don't know, it's impossible to guess the truth (which is why they should make a formal fucking announcement/apology) but any possibility makes more sense than "they genuinely thought this was a release-ready product"

I do not agree with you considering they told us this is 4th version of their combat system.. this is the best they could come up with lol.. a system where either side wins on turn 1

That's every good CRPG combat comes down to....I think Wasteland 3 also comes down to alpha strike. As well as Nu-Com.

Nope, I played both and played nuXcom (both) on hardest ironman. At best you could try to take out the most dangerous enemy on turn 1 but most of time it was managing enemies either by taking them out, disabling them or finding better cover or moving out of sight so you can fight another round with all your best soldiers alive. Bigger battles often took 5+ rounds.

RT is killing every enemy in turn 1 without them getting a turn if initiative turns out so. Or if they get initiative they wipe out most or all of your guys on turn 1 before you can get a turn. The whole thing is ridiculous. Combat was actually fun in prologue and act 1 and parts of act 2. It was also kind of fun in parts of Act 3 as this new concept of you can lose everyone in 1 turn was just starting to show up and my people were just getting into power of being able to do the same and I thought, OK that is just a few battles here for a change but then every battle is like that..

Well, to be fair, mine is 2 turns I guess, 1 turn to setup, 1 turn to do the ultie to Cassia/Argenta/Pascal.

For me it happens as soon as Cassia gets her turn (but it could be any Officer/MT character). She uses Bring it on on either Ulfar (if combat is lots of weaker enemies) or Argenta (if combat is few beefier ones) and they can murder everyone at that point. Bring it on now gives 4 AP to their target and they get a bunch of verstility and their soldier and exemplar buffs on, then she gets her turn back and can already use her heroic and she does that again on same character and now that character goes to town and murders everyone. Of course you kill first those that would be next with initiative. Then if anyone stay alive after that whoever is next in turn finished them off. If it is again chosen champion (Ulfar or Argenta) that are already buffed they easily finish the job.
Unless fight has multi phases or some special tricks where some enemies get some immunities or something it is over.

Only thing that stops this is if enemy gets initiative and does the same thing to half your party before they get a turn (like Act 4 end fight where I reloaded until Cassia got to live to her turn and Argenta was also alive at that point and then I done this same shit to those CSM and everyone there. It was really not fun at all to have such degenerate gameplay).

Also you are abusing bugs with your Pasqal thing, replace that Ancient Plasma Rifle with one that is not bugged and lets see how you like it then.

 

[REhorror]

Damage values are ridicilous in Act 4, it was already crazy in Act 3 but wtf.
Enemy damage needs to be cut by 50% but player damage needs to be 1/3 of what it is now. All the talents that stack need some limits like the soldier talent that gives critical damage per hit. Also it is way too easy to achive 100% hit chance, weapon and ballistic skill over 100% needs to give only half its value to crit chance, not full.. and versatility should give +3 or +4 to WS and BS, +5 ramps up way too fast.
And Cassia needs massive nerfs and bug fixes.
And abilities and spells need to follow rules as presented like 1 per round skills need to stop being available as soon as character gets its turn back from some ability in same round..
Even some things like Archmilitant heroic breaks this. For example. You activate it and use your free attack to kill a target that is marked as prey by a party BH with Savour the kill. That BH gets his turn to do his 2 or 3 AP non attack actions but as soon as archmilitant gets its turn back he can do another free attack.. it is busted and stupid..

Of course, agreed on everything, as these are all pretty obvious things. Again, as I said earlier in this thread, it's insane to me that Owlcat let some of this shit go to release, as any mildly experienced player of this type of games, could tell them all that, and massively improve this game in like few fucking hours of work. That's why I doubt if they have anyone remotely competent when it comes to combat, seems like they just were lucky with Pathfinders by mostly just using existing system, while here when they had to actually do more of their own thing, their incompetence became super obvious.

If I was Owlcat, I would immediately hire some autist obsessed with their games like Desiderius, to tell them how to actually do fucking combat that works. They could literally spend few bucks and couple days of work, and avoid going through 4 iterations of the system and it still being fucking retarded

The game has a ton of problems that could easily be fixed with a few hours of work. I am 100% certain that the release was suddenly and dramatically shifted to be vastly earlier than most of them were expecting. Maybe they'd been planning to announce a delay for several months, so they were still on an internal timetable of a year+ out, and then in November when the delay was supposed to be announced management suddenly gave them an ultimatum and they had to scramble to release the game in its present state. I don't know, it's impossible to guess the truth (which is why they should make a formal fucking announcement/apology) but any possibility makes more sense than "they genuinely thought this was a release-ready product"

I do not agree with you considering they told us this is 4th version of their combat system.. this is the best they could come up with lol.. a system where either side wins on turn 1

That's every good CRPG combat comes down to....I think Wasteland 3 also comes down to alpha strike. As well as Nu-Com.

Nope, I played both and played nuXcom (both) on hardest ironman. At best you could try to take out the most dangerous enemy on turn 1 but most of time it was managing enemies either by taking them out, disabling them or finding better cover or moving out of sight so you can fight another round with all your best soldiers alive. Bigger battles often took 5+ rounds.

RT is killing every enemy in turn 1 without them getting a turn if initiative turns out so. Or if they get initiative they wipe out most or all of your guys on turn 1 before you can get a turn. The whole thing is ridiculous. Combat was actually fun in prologue and act 1 and parts of act 2. It was also kind of fun in parts of Act 3 as this new concept of you can lose everyone in 1 turn was just starting to show up and my people were just getting into power of being able to do the same and I thought, OK that is just a few battles here for a change but then every battle is like that..

Well, to be fair, mine is 2 turns I guess, 1 turn to setup, 1 turn to do the ultie to Cassia/Argenta/Pascal.

For me it happens as soon as Cassia gets her turn (but it could be any Officer/MT character). She uses Bring it on on either Ulfar (if combat is lots of weaker enemies) or Argenta (if combat is few beefier ones) and they can murder everyone at that point. Bring it on now gives 4 AP to their target and they get a bunch of verstility and their soldier and exemplar buffs on, then she gets her turn back and can already use her heroic and she does that again on same character and now that character goes to town and murders everyone. Of course you kill first those that would be next with initiative. Then if anyone stay alive after that whoever is next in turn finished them off. If it is again chosen champion (Ulfar or Argenta) that are already buffed they easily finish the job.
Unless fight has multi phases or some special tricks where some enemies get some immunities or something is over.

Only thing that stops this is if enemy gets initiative and does the same thing to half your party before they get a turn (like Act 4 fight where I reloaded until Cassia got to live to her turn and Argenta was also alive at that point and then I done this same shit to those CSM and everyone there. It was really not fun at all to have such degenerate gameplay).

Also you are abusing bugs with your Pasqal thing, replace that Ancient Plasma Rifle with one that is not bugged and lets see how you like it then.

This seems overly complex I guess.
My RT is Grand strategy, my Cassia is Master tactician, I just use my first Bring it Down on Abelard to bring everyone extra turns (buff Cassia's willpower immensely), and then everyone do their turn, my ultie will pop up.
Then the next RT's turn I use my ultie on Cassia, who has enough tools to basically kill everything.
With MT's talent, Cassia also gets ANOTHER turn after the first ultie (no matter who uses it), so she goes double times.

 

[ArchAngel]

Damage values are ridicilous in Act 4, it was already crazy in Act 3 but wtf.
Enemy damage needs to be cut by 50% but player damage needs to be 1/3 of what it is now. All the talents that stack need some limits like the soldier talent that gives critical damage per hit. Also it is way too easy to achive 100% hit chance, weapon and ballistic skill over 100% needs to give only half its value to crit chance, not full.. and versatility should give +3 or +4 to WS and BS, +5 ramps up way too fast.
And Cassia needs massive nerfs and bug fixes.
And abilities and spells need to follow rules as presented like 1 per round skills need to stop being available as soon as character gets its turn back from some ability in same round..
Even some things like Archmilitant heroic breaks this. For example. You activate it and use your free attack to kill a target that is marked as prey by a party BH with Savour the kill. That BH gets his turn to do his 2 or 3 AP non attack actions but as soon as archmilitant gets its turn back he can do another free attack.. it is busted and stupid..

Of course, agreed on everything, as these are all pretty obvious things. Again, as I said earlier in this thread, it's insane to me that Owlcat let some of this shit go to release, as any mildly experienced player of this type of games, could tell them all that, and massively improve this game in like few fucking hours of work. That's why I doubt if they have anyone remotely competent when it comes to combat, seems like they just were lucky with Pathfinders by mostly just using existing system, while here when they had to actually do more of their own thing, their incompetence became super obvious.

If I was Owlcat, I would immediately hire some autist obsessed with their games like Desiderius, to tell them how to actually do fucking combat that works. They could literally spend few bucks and couple days of work, and avoid going through 4 iterations of the system and it still being fucking retarded

The game has a ton of problems that could easily be fixed with a few hours of work. I am 100% certain that the release was suddenly and dramatically shifted to be vastly earlier than most of them were expecting. Maybe they'd been planning to announce a delay for several months, so they were still on an internal timetable of a year+ out, and then in November when the delay was supposed to be announced management suddenly gave them an ultimatum and they had to scramble to release the game in its present state. I don't know, it's impossible to guess the truth (which is why they should make a formal fucking announcement/apology) but any possibility makes more sense than "they genuinely thought this was a release-ready product"

I do not agree with you considering they told us this is 4th version of their combat system.. this is the best they could come up with lol.. a system where either side wins on turn 1

That's every good CRPG combat comes down to....I think Wasteland 3 also comes down to alpha strike. As well as Nu-Com.

Nope, I played both and played nuXcom (both) on hardest ironman. At best you could try to take out the most dangerous enemy on turn 1 but most of time it was managing enemies either by taking them out, disabling them or finding better cover or moving out of sight so you can fight another round with all your best soldiers alive. Bigger battles often took 5+ rounds.

RT is killing every enemy in turn 1 without them getting a turn if initiative turns out so. Or if they get initiative they wipe out most or all of your guys on turn 1 before you can get a turn. The whole thing is ridiculous. Combat was actually fun in prologue and act 1 and parts of act 2. It was also kind of fun in parts of Act 3 as this new concept of you can lose everyone in 1 turn was just starting to show up and my people were just getting into power of being able to do the same and I thought, OK that is just a few battles here for a change but then every battle is like that..

Well, to be fair, mine is 2 turns I guess, 1 turn to setup, 1 turn to do the ultie to Cassia/Argenta/Pascal.

For me it happens as soon as Cassia gets her turn (but it could be any Officer/MT character). She uses Bring it on on either Ulfar (if combat is lots of weaker enemies) or Argenta (if combat is few beefier ones) and they can murder everyone at that point. Bring it on now gives 4 AP to their target and they get a bunch of verstility and their soldier and exemplar buffs on, then she gets her turn back and can already use her heroic and she does that again on same character and now that character goes to town and murders everyone. Of course you kill first those that would be next with initiative. Then if anyone stay alive after that whoever is next in turn finished them off. If it is again chosen champion (Ulfar or Argenta) that are already buffed they easily finish the job.
Unless fight has multi phases or some special tricks where some enemies get some immunities or something is over.

Only thing that stops this is if enemy gets initiative and does the same thing to half your party before they get a turn (like Act 4 fight where I reloaded until Cassia got to live to her turn and Argenta was also alive at that point and then I done this same shit to those CSM and everyone there. It was really not fun at all to have such degenerate gameplay).

Also you are abusing bugs with your Pasqal thing, replace that Ancient Plasma Rifle with one that is not bugged and lets see how you like it then.

This seems overly complex I guess.
My RT is Grand strategy, my Cassia is Master tactician, I just use my first Bring it Down on Abelard to bring everyone extra turns (buff Cassia's willpower immensely), and then everyone do their turn, my ultie will pop up.
Then the next RT's turn I use my ultie on Cassia, who has enough tools to basically kill everything.
With MT's talent, Cassia also gets ANOTHER turn after the first ultie (no matter who uses it), so she goes double times.

Yes that extra turn for Cassia is busted because all their supposedly 1 round cooldown skills are refreshed for that extra turn lol so he can give her Light to almost everyone in the party by end of turn 1 which is ridicilous as it buffs Toughness (and Willpower but that stat is not as important for non psykers) way too much.
If they ever fix players and enemies doing too much damage they will also need to nerf defensive abilities from Cassia, Tactical Advantage from Operator and Sanctic Psyker spells or instead of being able to kill everyone on turn 1 we will become immune to any damage on turn 1 which will be just as boring.

 

[REhorror]

Damage values are ridicilous in Act 4, it was already crazy in Act 3 but wtf.
Enemy damage needs to be cut by 50% but player damage needs to be 1/3 of what it is now. All the talents that stack need some limits like the soldier talent that gives critical damage per hit. Also it is way too easy to achive 100% hit chance, weapon and ballistic skill over 100% needs to give only half its value to crit chance, not full.. and versatility should give +3 or +4 to WS and BS, +5 ramps up way too fast.
And Cassia needs massive nerfs and bug fixes.
And abilities and spells need to follow rules as presented like 1 per round skills need to stop being available as soon as character gets its turn back from some ability in same round..
Even some things like Archmilitant heroic breaks this. For example. You activate it and use your free attack to kill a target that is marked as prey by a party BH with Savour the kill. That BH gets his turn to do his 2 or 3 AP non attack actions but as soon as archmilitant gets its turn back he can do another free attack.. it is busted and stupid..

Of course, agreed on everything, as these are all pretty obvious things. Again, as I said earlier in this thread, it's insane to me that Owlcat let some of this shit go to release, as any mildly experienced player of this type of games, could tell them all that, and massively improve this game in like few fucking hours of work. That's why I doubt if they have anyone remotely competent when it comes to combat, seems like they just were lucky with Pathfinders by mostly just using existing system, while here when they had to actually do more of their own thing, their incompetence became super obvious.

If I was Owlcat, I would immediately hire some autist obsessed with their games like Desiderius, to tell them how to actually do fucking combat that works. They could literally spend few bucks and couple days of work, and avoid going through 4 iterations of the system and it still being fucking retarded

The game has a ton of problems that could easily be fixed with a few hours of work. I am 100% certain that the release was suddenly and dramatically shifted to be vastly earlier than most of them were expecting. Maybe they'd been planning to announce a delay for several months, so they were still on an internal timetable of a year+ out, and then in November when the delay was supposed to be announced management suddenly gave them an ultimatum and they had to scramble to release the game in its present state. I don't know, it's impossible to guess the truth (which is why they should make a formal fucking announcement/apology) but any possibility makes more sense than "they genuinely thought this was a release-ready product"

I do not agree with you considering they told us this is 4th version of their combat system.. this is the best they could come up with lol.. a system where either side wins on turn 1

That's every good CRPG combat comes down to....I think Wasteland 3 also comes down to alpha strike. As well as Nu-Com.

Nope, I played both and played nuXcom (both) on hardest ironman. At best you could try to take out the most dangerous enemy on turn 1 but most of time it was managing enemies either by taking them out, disabling them or finding better cover or moving out of sight so you can fight another round with all your best soldiers alive. Bigger battles often took 5+ rounds.

RT is killing every enemy in turn 1 without them getting a turn if initiative turns out so. Or if they get initiative they wipe out most or all of your guys on turn 1 before you can get a turn. The whole thing is ridiculous. Combat was actually fun in prologue and act 1 and parts of act 2. It was also kind of fun in parts of Act 3 as this new concept of you can lose everyone in 1 turn was just starting to show up and my people were just getting into power of being able to do the same and I thought, OK that is just a few battles here for a change but then every battle is like that..

Well, to be fair, mine is 2 turns I guess, 1 turn to setup, 1 turn to do the ultie to Cassia/Argenta/Pascal.

For me it happens as soon as Cassia gets her turn (but it could be any Officer/MT character). She uses Bring it on on either Ulfar (if combat is lots of weaker enemies) or Argenta (if combat is few beefier ones) and they can murder everyone at that point. Bring it on now gives 4 AP to their target and they get a bunch of verstility and their soldier and exemplar buffs on, then she gets her turn back and can already use her heroic and she does that again on same character and now that character goes to town and murders everyone. Of course you kill first those that would be next with initiative. Then if anyone stay alive after that whoever is next in turn finished them off. If it is again chosen champion (Ulfar or Argenta) that are already buffed they easily finish the job.
Unless fight has multi phases or some special tricks where some enemies get some immunities or something is over.

Only thing that stops this is if enemy gets initiative and does the same thing to half your party before they get a turn (like Act 4 fight where I reloaded until Cassia got to live to her turn and Argenta was also alive at that point and then I done this same shit to those CSM and everyone there. It was really not fun at all to have such degenerate gameplay).

Also you are abusing bugs with your Pasqal thing, replace that Ancient Plasma Rifle with one that is not bugged and lets see how you like it then.

This seems overly complex I guess.
My RT is Grand strategy, my Cassia is Master tactician, I just use my first Bring it Down on Abelard to bring everyone extra turns (buff Cassia's willpower immensely), and then everyone do their turn, my ultie will pop up.
Then the next RT's turn I use my ultie on Cassia, who has enough tools to basically kill everything.
With MT's talent, Cassia also gets ANOTHER turn after the first ultie (no matter who uses it), so she goes double times.

Yes that extra turn for Cassia is busted because all their supposedly 1 round cooldown skills are refreshed for that extra turn lol so he can give her Light to almost everyone in the party by end of turn 1 which is ridicilous as it buffs Toughness by way too much.
If they ever fix players and enemies doing too much damage they will also need to nerf defensive abilities from Cassia, Tactical Advantage from Operator and Sanctic Psyker spells or instead of being able to kill everyone on turn 1 we will become immune to any damage on turn 1 which will be just as boring.

Yes, probably.
Just need more attack/actions caps, and stats buff cap I guess.

 

[ArchAngel]

Damage values are ridicilous in Act 4, it was already crazy in Act 3 but wtf.
Enemy damage needs to be cut by 50% but player damage needs to be 1/3 of what it is now. All the talents that stack need some limits like the soldier talent that gives critical damage per hit. Also it is way too easy to achive 100% hit chance, weapon and ballistic skill over 100% needs to give only half its value to crit chance, not full.. and versatility should give +3 or +4 to WS and BS, +5 ramps up way too fast.
And Cassia needs massive nerfs and bug fixes.
And abilities and spells need to follow rules as presented like 1 per round skills need to stop being available as soon as character gets its turn back from some ability in same round..
Even some things like Archmilitant heroic breaks this. For example. You activate it and use your free attack to kill a target that is marked as prey by a party BH with Savour the kill. That BH gets his turn to do his 2 or 3 AP non attack actions but as soon as archmilitant gets its turn back he can do another free attack.. it is busted and stupid..

Of course, agreed on everything, as these are all pretty obvious things. Again, as I said earlier in this thread, it's insane to me that Owlcat let some of this shit go to release, as any mildly experienced player of this type of games, could tell them all that, and massively improve this game in like few fucking hours of work. That's why I doubt if they have anyone remotely competent when it comes to combat, seems like they just were lucky with Pathfinders by mostly just using existing system, while here when they had to actually do more of their own thing, their incompetence became super obvious.

If I was Owlcat, I would immediately hire some autist obsessed with their games like Desiderius, to tell them how to actually do fucking combat that works. They could literally spend few bucks and couple days of work, and avoid going through 4 iterations of the system and it still being fucking retarded

The game has a ton of problems that could easily be fixed with a few hours of work. I am 100% certain that the release was suddenly and dramatically shifted to be vastly earlier than most of them were expecting. Maybe they'd been planning to announce a delay for several months, so they were still on an internal timetable of a year+ out, and then in November when the delay was supposed to be announced management suddenly gave them an ultimatum and they had to scramble to release the game in its present state. I don't know, it's impossible to guess the truth (which is why they should make a formal fucking announcement/apology) but any possibility makes more sense than "they genuinely thought this was a release-ready product"

I do not agree with you considering they told us this is 4th version of their combat system.. this is the best they could come up with lol.. a system where either side wins on turn 1

That's every good CRPG combat comes down to....I think Wasteland 3 also comes down to alpha strike. As well as Nu-Com.

Nope, I played both and played nuXcom (both) on hardest ironman. At best you could try to take out the most dangerous enemy on turn 1 but most of time it was managing enemies either by taking them out, disabling them or finding better cover or moving out of sight so you can fight another round with all your best soldiers alive. Bigger battles often took 5+ rounds.

RT is killing every enemy in turn 1 without them getting a turn if initiative turns out so. Or if they get initiative they wipe out most or all of your guys on turn 1 before you can get a turn. The whole thing is ridiculous. Combat was actually fun in prologue and act 1 and parts of act 2. It was also kind of fun in parts of Act 3 as this new concept of you can lose everyone in 1 turn was just starting to show up and my people were just getting into power of being able to do the same and I thought, OK that is just a few battles here for a change but then every battle is like that..

Well, to be fair, mine is 2 turns I guess, 1 turn to setup, 1 turn to do the ultie to Cassia/Argenta/Pascal.

For me it happens as soon as Cassia gets her turn (but it could be any Officer/MT character). She uses Bring it on on either Ulfar (if combat is lots of weaker enemies) or Argenta (if combat is few beefier ones) and they can murder everyone at that point. Bring it on now gives 4 AP to their target and they get a bunch of verstility and their soldier and exemplar buffs on, then she gets her turn back and can already use her heroic and she does that again on same character and now that character goes to town and murders everyone. Of course you kill first those that would be next with initiative. Then if anyone stay alive after that whoever is next in turn finished them off. If it is again chosen champion (Ulfar or Argenta) that are already buffed they easily finish the job.
Unless fight has multi phases or some special tricks where some enemies get some immunities or something is over.

Only thing that stops this is if enemy gets initiative and does the same thing to half your party before they get a turn (like Act 4 fight where I reloaded until Cassia got to live to her turn and Argenta was also alive at that point and then I done this same shit to those CSM and everyone there. It was really not fun at all to have such degenerate gameplay).

Also you are abusing bugs with your Pasqal thing, replace that Ancient Plasma Rifle with one that is not bugged and lets see how you like it then.

This seems overly complex I guess.
My RT is Grand strategy, my Cassia is Master tactician, I just use my first Bring it Down on Abelard to bring everyone extra turns (buff Cassia's willpower immensely), and then everyone do their turn, my ultie will pop up.
Then the next RT's turn I use my ultie on Cassia, who has enough tools to basically kill everything.
With MT's talent, Cassia also gets ANOTHER turn after the first ultie (no matter who uses it), so she goes double times.

Yes that extra turn for Cassia is busted because all their supposedly 1 round cooldown skills are refreshed for that extra turn lol so he can give her Light to almost everyone in the party by end of turn 1 which is ridicilous as it buffs Toughness by way too much.
If they ever fix players and enemies doing too much damage they will also need to nerf defensive abilities from Cassia, Tactical Advantage from Operator and Sanctic Psyker spells or instead of being able to kill everyone on turn 1 we will become immune to any damage on turn 1 which will be just as boring.

Yes, probably.
Just need more attack/actions caps, and stats buff cap I guess.

Not enough. There are a couple of abilities and talents that are clear causes for all this. All they need is to pick up Argenta or Sniper Assassins or Cassia from anyone playing on harder difficult in Act 4, look at combat logs and it is clear which talents and abilities need limits. It is fairly easy even from just combat logs to see what contributes the most to crazy damage values. And I think that is with a bunch of talents that should be giving even more damage not working.

 

[REhorror]

Damage values are ridicilous in Act 4, it was already crazy in Act 3 but wtf.
Enemy damage needs to be cut by 50% but player damage needs to be 1/3 of what it is now. All the talents that stack need some limits like the soldier talent that gives critical damage per hit. Also it is way too easy to achive 100% hit chance, weapon and ballistic skill over 100% needs to give only half its value to crit chance, not full.. and versatility should give +3 or +4 to WS and BS, +5 ramps up way too fast.
And Cassia needs massive nerfs and bug fixes.
And abilities and spells need to follow rules as presented like 1 per round skills need to stop being available as soon as character gets its turn back from some ability in same round..
Even some things like Archmilitant heroic breaks this. For example. You activate it and use your free attack to kill a target that is marked as prey by a party BH with Savour the kill. That BH gets his turn to do his 2 or 3 AP non attack actions but as soon as archmilitant gets its turn back he can do another free attack.. it is busted and stupid..

Of course, agreed on everything, as these are all pretty obvious things. Again, as I said earlier in this thread, it's insane to me that Owlcat let some of this shit go to release, as any mildly experienced player of this type of games, could tell them all that, and massively improve this game in like few fucking hours of work. That's why I doubt if they have anyone remotely competent when it comes to combat, seems like they just were lucky with Pathfinders by mostly just using existing system, while here when they had to actually do more of their own thing, their incompetence became super obvious.

If I was Owlcat, I would immediately hire some autist obsessed with their games like Desiderius, to tell them how to actually do fucking combat that works. They could literally spend few bucks and couple days of work, and avoid going through 4 iterations of the system and it still being fucking retarded

The game has a ton of problems that could easily be fixed with a few hours of work. I am 100% certain that the release was suddenly and dramatically shifted to be vastly earlier than most of them were expecting. Maybe they'd been planning to announce a delay for several months, so they were still on an internal timetable of a year+ out, and then in November when the delay was supposed to be announced management suddenly gave them an ultimatum and they had to scramble to release the game in its present state. I don't know, it's impossible to guess the truth (which is why they should make a formal fucking announcement/apology) but any possibility makes more sense than "they genuinely thought this was a release-ready product"

I do not agree with you considering they told us this is 4th version of their combat system.. this is the best they could come up with lol.. a system where either side wins on turn 1

That's every good CRPG combat comes down to....I think Wasteland 3 also comes down to alpha strike. As well as Nu-Com.

Nope, I played both and played nuXcom (both) on hardest ironman. At best you could try to take out the most dangerous enemy on turn 1 but most of time it was managing enemies either by taking them out, disabling them or finding better cover or moving out of sight so you can fight another round with all your best soldiers alive. Bigger battles often took 5+ rounds.

RT is killing every enemy in turn 1 without them getting a turn if initiative turns out so. Or if they get initiative they wipe out most or all of your guys on turn 1 before you can get a turn. The whole thing is ridiculous. Combat was actually fun in prologue and act 1 and parts of act 2. It was also kind of fun in parts of Act 3 as this new concept of you can lose everyone in 1 turn was just starting to show up and my people were just getting into power of being able to do the same and I thought, OK that is just a few battles here for a change but then every battle is like that..

Well, to be fair, mine is 2 turns I guess, 1 turn to setup, 1 turn to do the ultie to Cassia/Argenta/Pascal.

For me it happens as soon as Cassia gets her turn (but it could be any Officer/MT character). She uses Bring it on on either Ulfar (if combat is lots of weaker enemies) or Argenta (if combat is few beefier ones) and they can murder everyone at that point. Bring it on now gives 4 AP to their target and they get a bunch of verstility and their soldier and exemplar buffs on, then she gets her turn back and can already use her heroic and she does that again on same character and now that character goes to town and murders everyone. Of course you kill first those that would be next with initiative. Then if anyone stay alive after that whoever is next in turn finished them off. If it is again chosen champion (Ulfar or Argenta) that are already buffed they easily finish the job.
Unless fight has multi phases or some special tricks where some enemies get some immunities or something is over.

Only thing that stops this is if enemy gets initiative and does the same thing to half your party before they get a turn (like Act 4 fight where I reloaded until Cassia got to live to her turn and Argenta was also alive at that point and then I done this same shit to those CSM and everyone there. It was really not fun at all to have such degenerate gameplay).

Also you are abusing bugs with your Pasqal thing, replace that Ancient Plasma Rifle with one that is not bugged and lets see how you like it then.

This seems overly complex I guess.
My RT is Grand strategy, my Cassia is Master tactician, I just use my first Bring it Down on Abelard to bring everyone extra turns (buff Cassia's willpower immensely), and then everyone do their turn, my ultie will pop up.
Then the next RT's turn I use my ultie on Cassia, who has enough tools to basically kill everything.
With MT's talent, Cassia also gets ANOTHER turn after the first ultie (no matter who uses it), so she goes double times.

Yes that extra turn for Cassia is busted because all their supposedly 1 round cooldown skills are refreshed for that extra turn lol so he can give her Light to almost everyone in the party by end of turn 1 which is ridicilous as it buffs Toughness by way too much.
If they ever fix players and enemies doing too much damage they will also need to nerf defensive abilities from Cassia, Tactical Advantage from Operator and Sanctic Psyker spells or instead of being able to kill everyone on turn 1 we will become immune to any damage on turn 1 which will be just as boring.

Yes, probably.
Just need more attack/actions caps, and stats buff cap I guess.

Not enough. There are a couple of abilities and talents that are clear causes for all this. All they need is to pick up Argenta or Sniper Assassins or Cassia from anyone playing on harder difficult in Act 4, look at combat logs and it is clear which talents and abilities need limits. It is fairly easy even from just combat logs to see what contributes the most to crazy damage values. And I think that is with a bunch of talents that should be giving even more damage not working.

Damage caps too, I guess.

 

[ArchAngel]

So, from Steam:
"Devs are planning a huge rebalance of all fights and weapons for 1.1 ( around 2 months or so ) with nerf to burst weapons and buff to aoe weapons like melta"
it is info shared by devs on Discord.

 

[Reinhardt]

More like NNNN NIGGERS amirite?

Is this supposed to be a woman? Did you forget what a woman looks like? Did Owlcuck?

niggers lack sexual dimorphism

 

[Nortar]

So, from Steam:
"Devs are planning a huge rebalance of all fights and weapons for 1.1 ( around 2 months or so ) with nerf to burst weapons and buff to aoe weapons like melta"
it is info shared by devs on Discord.

So the "huge rebalance" by mid-March.
A couple of months to fix all the bugs caused by this huge rebalance, and we're looking at first half of May.
And a few more weeks to fix the bugs caused by the previous batch of fixes.
So I guess it will be ready to be played in June.
And I can bet they will start rolling out DLCs about that time if for nothing else just to fuck things up again.

 

[Shaki]

So, from Steam:
"Devs are planning a huge rebalance of all fights and weapons for 1.1 ( around 2 months or so ) with nerf to burst weapons and buff to aoe weapons like melta"
it is info shared by devs on Discord.

So the "huge rebalance" by mid-March.
A couple of months to fix all the bugs caused by this huge rebalance, and we're looking at first half of May.
And a few more weeks to fix the bugs caused by the previous batch of fixes.
So I guess it will be ready to be played in June.
And I can bet they will start rolling out DLCs about that time if for nothing else just to fuck things up again.

I bet they will forget that enemies also use these weapons, and accidentally completely unbalance combat even worse, eg. every enemy with a melta will be oneshotting your whole team

 

[ArchAngel]

So, from Steam:
"Devs are planning a huge rebalance of all fights and weapons for 1.1 ( around 2 months or so ) with nerf to burst weapons and buff to aoe weapons like melta"
it is info shared by devs on Discord.

So the "huge rebalance" by mid-March.
A couple of months to fix all the bugs caused by this huge rebalance, and we're looking at first half of May.
And a few more weeks to fix the bugs caused by the previous batch of fixes.
So I guess it will be ready to be played in June.
And I can bet they will start rolling out DLCs about that time if for nothing else just to fuck things up again.

I bet they will forget that enemies also use these weapons, and accidentally completely unbalance combat even worse, eg. every enemy with a melta will be oneshotting your whole team

Well it does say rebalance of all fights so I guess they will playtest all fights with new changes and fix what needs fixing. I am sure they will still miss 50% of abuses but it is a step in a right direction. If they can put a stop to overwhelming damage from both sides that is a good first step. Player defensive abilities can then later be nerfed if needed because that does not affect enemies as they have no defensive abilities.

I just hope they pull some playtesters from the community for help them balance this stuff as their internal team so far has not done a stellar job..

 

[jf8350143]

I wonder how they wil nerf the bursting fire weapon without turning them into completely shit.

 

[ArchAngel]

I wonder how they wil nerf the bursting fire weapon without turning them into completely shit.

Easy solution would be to turn some of the flat bonuses to damage to % bonus damage as that is less useful to lower base damage burst weapons and also put upper caps on all the talents that give bonus damage but do not have a cap atm.
That is done fairly easily. Decide what is the max amount of damage you want players to do at different parts of the game, then look at what modifiers are biggest causes of crazy damage and limit those to wanted values.
Also only real enemy of Burst fire is Deflection. They could add more ways to reduce enemy deflection, there is million ways to reduce enemy armor but only few for deflection.
Burst fire could still stay something that will do good damage vs debuffed enemies and vs groups due to its spread (it is also a problem that there are multiple items that basically remove spread for burst turning all burst weapons into best single target weapons)
They got a bunch of talents that will give you almost tiny amounts of bonus damage based on special situations and needing to focus on one stat but then they just give you Soldier talent that gives bonus critical with each attack (that counts each bullet in burst as separate attack) with no upper limit or Exemplar talent that gives bonus damage each time you do an attack that also has no upper limit.. Or something like Concentrated Fire that gives like 250+% bonus damage and works with bursts (I hope at least they fix that soon, I have not been abusing that combination as I would feel dirty if I did when Argenta is already bursting for 150 damage per bullet by end of turn 1 and already murdering everyone).
But also by end of act 4 and starting Act 5 as you are getting near end of leveling you basically took everything that is worth anything and you are now picking random trash talents as there is nothing good to pick anymore from your first and 2nd archtype so you will luck into broken combinations even if you have no idea what you are doing.

Oh and they need to fix momentum gain, something is very broken about it in mid and later of the game. It was coming much much slower at start, maybe it is just that Master Tactician is just so broken it speeds up momentum gain like crazy (and that Inquisitor ring that gives +20 momentum for 0 AP...)

 

[processdaemon]

I don't mind the combat being hilariously broken that much, I just wish it was paced properly. Nothing in Act 5 comes anywhere close to the difficulty of the Uralon/ Edge of Daybreak fight and as much as that was a pain it made the rest of the game feel kind of anticlimactic (note: in the unlikely event that someone from Owlcat sees this this is NOT me saying that the final fight should be even harder than the Uralon fight is now, please God don't do that, just saying that the difficulty curve should maybe be smoothed a little).

 

[Dishonoredbr]

So, from Steam:
"Devs are planning a huge rebalance of all fights and weapons for 1.1 ( around 2 months or so ) with nerf to burst weapons and buff to aoe weapons like melta"
it is info shared by devs on Discord.

Rebalance of all fights ? That's ambitious.

 

[Saark]

Most of the game would be decently balanced if Officers/Cassia didn't exist.

 

[Rhobar121]

Most of the game would be decently balanced if Officers/Cassia didn't exist.

If this were the case, half of your team, if not more, will still die before your first turn; if the enemy moves first, the only difference is that you won't be able to stop it.
This requires remaking virtually most of the fights from the beginning of Act 3 onwards.

 

[Saark]

If this were the case, half of your team, if not more, will still die before your first turn

I remember a single fight where that was actually the case. The Eldar ambush in Quetza Temer, that has 5 or more Eldari Snipers spread out across the area and you don't get to pre-move before the fight actually begins to move people out of Line of Sight. And even that fight was manageable (and I didn't have an Officer in my team at the time).

There are obvious issues with crit conversion on enemies that have insanely high hit-chances, which basically allows them to crit any character that they have in their line of sight, but the pre-moving in 99% of the encounters allows you to negate that advantage. So does the full cover that a Vanguard provides, and there's only a handful of enemies that actually have overpenetration.

I didn't say that removing Officers/Cassia would solve all the issues the tuning has, and some enemies certainly deal high damage, but there are multiple ways of countering that kind of damage. But Bring It Down and Cassias stupidly high Willpower/Waking Nightmore taking off >30-50% of a bosses HP is what made the game ridiculously easy, even when manually setting every single enemy stat to the maximum.

 

[ArchAngel]

Cohh review:

Tldr;
He loved it except for the bugginess, lack of more VO, too many level ups and bad UI for leveling and lack of balance in combat (says player get access to too many broken build).

 

[jf8350143]

It just occurs to me that there is no shield in this game.

Hopefully they add them in when the DLC comes out.