Warhammer Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader - turn-based Warhammer 40k RPG from Owlcat Games - now with Void Shadows DLC

[La vie sexuelle]

All of those understand that religion is just a weapon or a tool of survival.

That isn't how religion works.

Necessary but not sufficient

We are talking about God-Emperor religion in WH40K world. Anyone alive for 10k years knows Emperor was a powerful human, not a God. And he didn't become a God in the meantime. And there is a lot of "people" in that world that can live that long

Religion is literally Magic.

View attachment 50389

If people didn't believe he was a (the) God he wouldn't have survived that long as Emperor. The Romans knew this, as did the Christians Constantine chose to revive his empire when the Romans - like you - forgot.

That Empire lived another 1,200 years.

The statement was about religion in general. It is mistaken in the common modern way now defunct. Religion (a) requires belief to function and (b) has a very powerful function indeed. If it didn't it would be no weapon nor tool in the first place.

https://fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/explor...ts/context/subjects/the-adoration-of-the-magi

Equating magic and religion is not only false, but also impractical. This makes sense when we talk about Warhamer, but also our world.

People are spiritual beings. This means that they are interested in transcendence, that is, they want to go beyond matter to something greater. This is sacred. Religion deals with the social aspect of these endeavors, i.e. the situation when spiritual people unite around the sacred. Religion is practiced for its own sake. Magic is practical and technical. Serves the magician. It is practiced for external purposes.

That term division is the most useful, but not ideal, because, for example, sometimes practicing magic becomes spiritual and para-religious. However, such a taxonomy is usually useful.

There is a lot of magic in the world of Warhammer that comes from Warp and Will. Magician doesn't need gods for that. However, the people of the Empire believe that the Holy Emperor is the source of miracles, but he is not only a powergiver, but also a source of sense. For them, using warp is a form of miracle that highlights the truth of what gives meaning to their lives. In Chaos it works similarly - the gods born from Warp are the source of the power they embody, which in no way deprives them of their divine qualities, and their followers devotion.

 

[Harthwain]

Equating magic and religion is not only false, but also impractical. This makes sense when we talk about Warhamer, but also our world.

People are spiritual beings. This means that they are interested in transcendence, that is, they want to go beyond matter to something greater. This is sacred. Religion deals with the social aspect of these endeavors, i.e. the situation when spiritual people unite around the sacred. Religion is practiced for its own sake. Magic is practical and technical. Serves the magician. It is practiced for external purposes.

You make it sound as if the ancient Romans, Greek or Egyptians didn't use religion for magical purposes (and something similar can be said about people from the Middle Ages, with relics and miracles).

 

[La vie sexuelle]

Equating magic and religion is not only false, but also impractical. This makes sense when we talk about Warhamer, but also our world.

People are spiritual beings. This means that they are interested in transcendence, that is, they want to go beyond matter to something greater. This is sacred. Religion deals with the social aspect of these endeavors, i.e. the situation when spiritual people unite around the sacred. Religion is practiced for its own sake. Magic is practical and technical. Serves the magician. It is practiced for external purposes.

You make it sound as if the ancient Romans, Greek or Egyptians didn't use religion for magical purposes (and something similar can be said about people from the Middle Ages, with relics and miracles).

They used. But magical activity is different from religious activity, it is one thing to decorate a statue of Zeus (Zeus is holy) and another thing to ask a witch to abort a fetus (external goal).

As I mentioned, some cases are less obvious. Magic formulas that were supposed to be useful in the afterlife were placed in the tombs of the pharaohs. But the movement of the Pharaoh's souls is sacred because it expresses a greater order of things, and magic is just a means to an end. In this case, magic is within religion and subordinated to holiness.

 

[Harthwain]

They used. But magical activity is different from religious activity, it is one thing to decorate a statue of Zeus (Zeus is holy) and another thing to ask a witch to abort a fetus (external goal).

Divinations or asking gods for favor were both seen as both religious and magical activities ("magical" as in supernatural).

As I mentioned, some cases are less obvious. Magic formulas that were supposed to be useful in the afterlife were placed in the tombs of the pharaohs. But the movement of the Pharaoh's souls is sacred because it expresses a greater order of things, and magic is just a means to an end. In this case, magic is within religion and subordinated to holiness.

I'd say that "magic is within religion" is pretty much equating magic and religion.

Egyptians in particular used magic formulas (or spells) in everyday life, not just when it came to the afterlife, and gods were an integral element of that, too. What we see as a natural order of things, for Egyptians was magical. Such as rising of the sun every day, for example. Hell, even Aztecs, a completely different culture, also thought the sun god needed help to keep rising each day and that's why the kept sacrificing people. If that is not magical, then I don't know what is. And only because it is also religious doesn't really change much (and supports the point that magical activity can be synonymous with religious activity).

 

[Desiderius]

All of those understand that religion is just a weapon or a tool of survival.

That isn't how religion works.

Necessary but not sufficient

We are talking about God-Emperor religion in WH40K world. Anyone alive for 10k years knows Emperor was a powerful human, not a God. And he didn't become a God in the meantime. And there is a lot of "people" in that world that can live that long

Religion is literally Magic.

View attachment 50389

If people didn't believe he was a (the) God he wouldn't have survived that long as Emperor. The Romans knew this, as did the Christians Constantine chose to revive his empire when the Romans - like you - forgot.

That Empire lived another 1,200 years.

The statement was about religion in general. It is mistaken in the common modern way now defunct. Religion (a) requires belief to function and (b) has a very powerful function indeed. If it didn't it would be no weapon nor tool in the first place.

https://fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/explor...ts/context/subjects/the-adoration-of-the-magi

Equating magic and religion is not only false, but also impractical. This makes sense when we talk about Warhamer, but also our world.

People are spiritual beings. This means that they are interested in transcendence, that is, they want to go beyond matter to something greater. This is sacred. Religion deals with the social aspect of these endeavors, i.e. the situation when spiritual people unite around the sacred. Religion is practiced for its own sake. Magic is practical and technical. Serves the magician. It is practiced for external purposes.

That term division is the most useful, but not ideal, because, for example, sometimes practicing magic becomes spiritual and para-religious. However, such a taxonomy is usually useful.

There is a lot of magic in the world of Warhammer that comes from Warp and Will. Magician doesn't need gods for that. However, the people of the Empire believe that the Holy Emperor is the source of miracles, but he is not only a powergiver, but also a source of sense. For them, using warp is a form of miracle that highlights the truth of what gives meaning to their lives. In Chaos it works similarly - the gods born from Warp are the source of the power they embody, which in no way deprives them of their divine qualities, and their followers devotion.

Look at the title of the attached picture.

Magic is the adjectival form of Magi.

Was hoping I wouldn't have to explain this. There is no equating. Accidents are not essences.

The problem with your interpretation of my statement is the same as the original to which I replied:

The word "just" (which you imputed). It is Magic but not just that, and neither *just* a weapon or tool. In both cases accident is mistaken for essence.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

They used. But magical activity is different from religious activity, it is one thing to decorate a statue of Zeus (Zeus is holy) and another thing to ask a witch to abort a fetus (external goal).

Divinations or asking gods for favor were both seen as both religious and magical activities ("magical" as in supernatural).

As I mentioned, some cases are less obvious. Magic formulas that were supposed to be useful in the afterlife were placed in the tombs of the pharaohs. But the movement of the Pharaoh's souls is sacred because it expresses a greater order of things, and magic is just a means to an end. In this case, magic is within religion and subordinated to holiness.

I'd say that "magic is within religion" is pretty much equating magic and religion.

Egyptians in particular used magic formulas (or spells) in everyday life, not just when it came to the afterlife, and gods were an integral element of that, too. What we see as a natural order of things, for Egyptians was magical. Such as rising of the sun every day, for example. Hell, even Aztecs, a completely different culture, also thought the sun god needed help to keep rising each day and that's why the kept sacrificing people. If that is not magical, then I don't know what is. And only because it is also religious doesn't really change much (and supports the point that magical activity can be synonymous with religious activity).

I cited the example of Egypt to show you that the existence of magical elements in religion does not mean that both are identical, because these are slightly different types of activities.

Think about it - if you equate magic with religion, you equate a witch brewing a love potion with a meditating monk. What do we gain from this in an intellectual sense?

 

[Harthwain]

Think about it - if you equate magic with religion, you equate a witch brewing a love potion with a meditating monk. What do we gain from this in an intellectual sense?

It wasn't about "intellectual gains" back then. Back then people thought religion/magic were having a real effect on the world.

 

[Desiderius]

Think about it - if you equate magic with religion, you equate a witch brewing a love potion with a meditating monk. What do we gain from this in an intellectual sense?

It wasn't about "intellectual gains" back then. Back then people thought religion/magic were having a real effect on the world.

We don't need to think, we know. It forms the basis of our thought in general, and a sound one.

 

[lightbane]

Owlcat writers are too DnDbrained and the political dynamics of the Imperium are reduced and molded to fit Lawful Evil/Neutral Good/Chaotic Evil alignments.

If only... It seems Owlcat attributes Lawful Good and Lawful Neutral to Chaotic evil, as being harsh but fair, or very strict with certain rules out of necessity = lol evil. No subtlely anymore.

 

[ArchAngel]

Owlcat writers are too DnDbrained and the political dynamics of the Imperium are reduced and molded to fit Lawful Evil/Neutral Good/Chaotic Evil alignments.

If only... It seems Owlcat attributes Lawful Good and Lawful Neutral to Chaotic evil, as being harsh but fair, or very strict with certain rules out of necessity = lol evil. No subtlely anymore.

DnD Good = You care for others before yourself
DnD Neutral = You care for yourself first but will not go out of your way to hurt others and/or you will not enjoy it
DnD Evil = You do stuff for yourself and will do whatever and even enjoy it

 

[La vie sexuelle]

Think about it - if you equate magic with religion, you equate a witch brewing a love potion with a meditating monk. What do we gain from this in an intellectual sense?

It wasn't about "intellectual gains" back then. Back then people thought religion/magic were having a real effect on the world.

Think about it - if you equate magic with religion, you equate a witch brewing a love potion with a meditating monk. What do we gain from this in an intellectual sense?

It wasn't about "intellectual gains" back then. Back then people thought religion/magic were having a real effect on the world.

We don't need to think, we know. It forms the basis of our thought in general, and a sound one.

There's a difference between how people interpret what they're doing and what you do when you try to frame it. There is a difference between economic choices and economics. The same between spiritual life and the description of spirituality.

 

[Desiderius]

There's a difference between how people interpret what they're doing and what you do when you try to frame it

There is no try, and I'm neither interpreting nor framing, I'm describing.

The Word became Flesh and dwelt among us. There is distinction but no essential difference. The abstract and real cannot be rent asunder.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

There's a difference between how people interpret what they're doing and what you do when you try to frame it

There is no try, and I'm neither interpreting nor framing, I'm describing.

The Word became Flesh and dwelt among us. There is distinction but no essential difference. The abstract and real cannot be rent asunder.

The problem is that abstractions are an intermediary between humans and the real world. While in the case of objects we can argue to what extent the idea reflects the thing, when it comes to our activities, activity is a representation of the idea. Therefore, when describing people, we must first notice how they construct their world, and then how we can describe these constructions for ourselves.

As I said, the division into magic and religion according to the criterion of holiness helps us avoid conceptual chaos, especially if we are talking about different cultures.

 

[Harthwain]

There's a difference between how people interpret what they're doing and what you do when you try to frame it.

That's irrelevant. The world and its rules don't change depending on your own interpretation of what you're doing. At best you can get a better understanding of the world and its rules so you can take advantage of them.

The point remains - you can have religion functioning, in essence, as a form of magic. The rituals may differ, the source of power may differ, etc. but the ultimate effect is pretty much the same: trying to influence the existing world by interacting with supernatural power(s).

 

[La vie sexuelle]

There's a difference between how people interpret what they're doing and what you do when you try to frame it.

That's irrelevant. The world and its rules don't change depending on your own interpretation of what you're doing. At best you can get a better understanding of the world and its rules so you can take advantage of them.

So you're saying there's no difference between how a vet sees a dog, how its owner sees it, and how the dog sees itself?

The point remains - you can have religion functioning, in essence, as a form of magic. The rituals may differ, the source of power may differ, etc. but the ultimate effect is pretty much the same: trying to influence the existing world by interacting with supernatural power(s).

Do you really think there is no difference between a witch brewing an infusion and a meditating monk because the spiritual essence remains the same? After all, both activities are qualitatively different and have a completely different social background. It's like saying: "A cat is a dog because they share the essence of a mammal."

 

[Harthwain]

So you're saying there's no difference between how a vet sees a dog, how its owner sees it, and how the dog sees itself?

Pointless question. Perception changes nothing. A dog remains a dog.

Do you really think there is no difference between a witch brewing an infusion and a meditating monk because the spiritual essence remains the same? After all, both activities are qualitatively different and have a completely different social background. It's like saying: "A cat is a dog because they share the essence of a mammal."

If A is calling upon the supernatural forces and B is calling upon the supernatural forces, then I don't see a difference. Sure, you can say than one is called religion and the other is called magic and try to go further down this rabbit hole, but none of that changes the fact that both are using the supernatural forces to achieve a certain goal.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

So you're saying there's no difference between how a vet sees a dog, how its owner sees it, and how the dog sees itself?

Pointless question. Perception changes nothing. A dog remains a dog.

People's attitudes are not so much about things, but about beliefs about things. This is, paradoxically, a fact. Ignoring the fact in favor of very naive materialism leads to the creation of unrealistic beliefs about the world and people. Which, again a paradox, proves again how people, in this case naive materialists, are dependent on their imagination.

 

[MerchantKing]

Desiderius is correct in a sense. Magic outside of pop culture is just the attempt to communicate with spirits, to interpret omens (believed to be caused by spirits), or to influence the minds of others all for some advantage to either a person or group of people. Those are all the domains of religion.

 

[Fedora Master]

Lol this thread

 

[Harthwain]

People's attitudes are not so much about things, but about beliefs about things. This is, paradoxically, a fact.

Yet again you're missing the point. In a universe of Warhammer 40,000 the magic is real and gods do exist (and can bestow powers upon people). This is not just the matter of beliefs, this is a fact. Frankly, citizens of the Imperium of Man are not very far from where the ancient Egyptians were, in terms of their mentality.

 

[ga♥]

Gods of W40K, at least judging from the little I know, don't seem to be neither omnipotent, omniscient and neither immortal. So very powerful entities but not gods in a classic way. Worshipping them as such is more than a political stance than faith.

 

[Peachcurl]

Some of them are immortal for all intents and purposes. Either way, that's not a definition of "gods in a classic way" that's the definition of God in terms of monotheistic religions like Christianity.

Osiris, Zeus, Odin, Shiva ... none of those are/were generally believed to be omnipotent, omniscient, and immortal.

 

[ga♥]

Some of them are immortal for all intents and purposes. Either way, that's not a definition of "gods in a classic way" that's the definition of God in terms of monotheistic religions like Christianity.

Osiris, Zeus, Odin, Shiva ... none of those are/were generally believed to be omnipotent, omniscient, and immortal.

Zeus was immortal as all greek gods.
Odin was omniscient if not immortal, so not sure what your point is.

Anything can be a god? I think it is fitting that W40K doesn't have some entity really godly btw.

 

[TheKing01]

Zeus and Odin weren't considered to be immortal?

 

[Peachcurl]

Some of them are immortal for all intents and purposes. Either way, that's not a definition of "gods in a classic way" that's the definition of God in terms of monotheistic religions like Christianity.

Osiris, Zeus, Odin, Shiva ... none of those are/were generally believed to be omnipotent, omniscient, and immortal.

Zeus was immortal as all greek gods.
Odin was omniscient if not immortal, so not sure what your point is.

If immortality alone is sufficient, there's plenty of gods in W40k.

Is Odin the only norse god?