Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Warhammer Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader - turn-based Warhammer 40k RPG from Owlcat Games - Void Shadows DLC coming September 24th

MjKorz

Educated
Joined
Jul 11, 2022
Messages
207
WotR is the game designed statbloat relative to tabletop became the norm as rather than fixing how mechanics are implemented, i.e. that Armor Enhancement increases an object's armor class and doesn't give the player an enhancement bonus or that most natural armor sources do not stack unless they are specified to either increase natural armor, i.e. mutagen natural armor and legendary proportions natural armor do not stack, or the flanking rules not being implemented.

Statbloat on everything comes from the ruleset.
But that would mean that the (falsely perceived) need for bloating enemy stats does not come from the ruleset, it comes from the incorrect implementation of the ruleset. If you implement the various stacking rules the way they should work in tabletop, you'd have less of a (falsely perceived) need to bloat enemy stats to compensate for the theoretical buff stacking the player can achieve.

Players being able to spam buffs on everything and for everythign is a feature of WotC 3e just like how MTG has been since +1/+1 counters were added to the game. It was present in NWN, NWN2, ToEE. If you look at the average NWN1+2 builds for example, you'll always find calculations for saves and AB where all these bonuses are applied to show you can get +50 AB, 60 AC, +30 saves, etc. or something else along those lines because that's what the WotC ruleset allowed. Pf1e just took it to new heights by adding more abilities to everything. If anything, the statbloat already occurred in tabletop as buffing everything was made incredibly easy. In comparison, in spite of its many faults, WotC 5e does this better as attributes tend to be lower and you really cannot stack a billion effects at once due to constraints like concentration for magic buffs.
Being able to stack numerous in-game legal buffs is actually not a problem, because you can use the same buffs to empower enemies during encounters. The problem lies with not wanting to use those in-game legal buffs on enemies and instead just giving every trash mob unexplainable +16 to all stats that cannot be dispelled. There wouldn't be much of a problem, if both the player and the enemies played by the same rules when it comes to (pre)buffing, the problem is that Owlclowns have a policy of buffing mostly just bosses and select end-game mobs while leaving the majority of trash unbuffed, even in cases where such buffs would make perfect sense due to enemies being accompanied by arcane/divine spellcasters.
 

MerchantKing

Learned
Joined
Jun 5, 2023
Messages
1,386
I also don't get their normal difficulty. "Normal" difficulty in my mind should imply no bonuses to either enemies or the player. Whereas in all three of their games, the "normal" difficulty is an easier difficulty than what should be the true normal difficulty.
No bonuses to enemies relative to what? Even normal difficulty has stat inflation relative to tabletop. Stat bloat lies at the core of their enemy design.
I don't get this argument and why it always come back. The tabletop is balanced for casual play with no "load game" after death and characters with no planned synnergy (and those people who like to play non optimally/make bad moves on purpose for roleplay) . Plus Owlcat give us a lot of powerful gear in the game (so we have more progression steps in the course of the game), far more than a normal tabletop game. It would be ridiculously easy if ever implemented as the normal difficulty.
Because bloating the stats of trash mobs is the absolute worst way of increasing the challenge level of encounters. It is especially bad when implemented in the Owlclown way: as flat bonuses that cannot be dispelled instead of actual in-game legal buffs. You mention player party member synergy, but at the same time avoid asking the question: why didn't they just design encounters with enemy party synergy in mind?
They develop all their games in less than a year and then release them in a nearly unplayable state.
2. Smart target prioritization. If the player can see the enemy stats and prioritize attacking the weakest defenses, why can't the enemy do the same?
Players shouldn't be able to see enemy stats. This is something that really should be done away with that Icewind Dale and even BG1+2 did better in this regard.
Why can't the enemy archers prioritize player backline wizards?
Line of sight, obstacles, etc. Line of sight is an often unimplemented idea in many games and it's especially absent in many D&D games. Unlike the movies, to actually hit something with a bow, you have to have to be able to see it and have a clear path to it while aiming at as directly as possible. The only D&D game that implements any kind of cover mechanic was KotC2. One of the few places I see friendly fire or obstacles being accounted for was in Battle Brothers.

Though in some cases, the enemies do target backliners in WotR. That being said, if you know enemies were to target exclusive wizards whenever possible, you either learn to exploit it, i.e. in Kingmaker's AI mod where you get tons of free AoO against enemies charging the backline. With archers targeting bakcliners, a player would simply designed Wizards around the fact that they're going to be targeted by making the wizard as invincible as possible against the archers so that either the archers will be baited into wasting their shots or to no longer prioratize wizards and still waste their shots while the enemies are cleared.

In Kingmaker and WotR, wizards already have access to a large number of spells that trivialize archers like protection from arrows, mirror image, all the AC they can already stack on themselves with their spells, etc. It wouldn't make any difference there.
4. Liberal use of traps, ambushes and elevation. Traps that make charging the enemy formation head on deadly,
The problem with traps in this game is that they are player character exclusive. I have yet to see any enemy let alone NPC trigger a trap in most games outside one of the few cutscenes. At this point in time, they seem to be nothing but a way to justify the existence of a trap removal skill. That being said, this is done quite a few times in WotR and even kingmaker as there are traps sometimes between you and nearby enemies.
enemy assassins dimension dooring on your backline,
This is done in a few encounters in WotR. Though the player just learns to put melees in the backline and to put "backliners" between characters. It doesn't add very much challenge in general.
archers positioned on elevated ground that cannot be easily and quickly reached by player melee characters
This is also done in a few encounters in WotR.
5. Liberal use of proper enemy prebuffing. If the player can prebuff, so should the enemy. And I'm not talking only about stat-increasing buffs, but various immunities as well that would make dumpstering entire encounters with one spell harder.
They use prebuffing in WotR.
 

MerchantKing

Learned
Joined
Jun 5, 2023
Messages
1,386
I also don't get their normal difficulty. "Normal" difficulty in my mind should imply no bonuses to either enemies or the player. Whereas in all three of their games, the "normal" difficulty is an easier difficulty than what should be the true normal difficulty.
No bonuses to enemies relative to what? Even normal difficulty has stat inflation relative to tabletop. Stat bloat lies at the core of their enemy design.
I don't get this argument and why it always come back. The tabletop is balanced for casual play with no "load game" after death and characters with no planned synnergy (and those people who like to play non optimally/make bad moves on purpose for roleplay) . Plus Owlcat give us a lot of powerful gear in the game (so we have more progression steps in the course of the game), far more than a normal tabletop game. It would be ridiculously easy if ever implemented as the normal difficulty.
Because bloating the stats of trash mobs is the absolute worst way of increasing the challenge level of encounters. It is especially bad when implemented in the Owlclown way: as flat bonuses that cannot be dispelled instead of actual in-game legal buffs. You mention player party member synergy, but at the same time avoid asking the question: why didn't they just design encounters with enemy party synergy in mind?

There are many ways to make encounters more challenging without bloating enemy stats:

1. Smart enemy party composition. Tanks properly specced into combat maneuvers to both create a living shield for their allies and disrupt player characters. Reach weapon damage dealers specced into maximum attack bonus and damage that attack from behind the backs of their comrades. Clerics that provide not only minuscule heals or spam destruction or blade barrier, but actually use their strongest class feature - domain powers like madness, law, community, good, luck instead of just Nalfeshnees using touch of chaos. Arcane spellcasters that do not shy away from using actually powerful AoE disabling spells that fit the tactical encounter and their party composition. This and many other classes used together in tactically appropriate roles.

2. Smart target prioritization. If the player can see the enemy stats and prioritize attacking the weakest defenses, why can't the enemy do the same? Why can't the enemy archers prioritize player backline wizards? Or enemy wizards having a smart selection of level appropriate spells that target different saves and then using those spells against the weakest saves in the party?

3. Smart enemy spell selection and proper enemy caster itemization. Mages that use a combination of debuff/dispel + AoE or single target disabling spells, dispelling specialists that just spam dispel while having their dispel caster level check bonus maximized by legal in-game means. Mages using metamagic by any means including rods and casting selective/persistent/quickened AoE disables. The saddest part is that some enemies like that actually exist in the game, but they're extremely rare while they should actually be the common spellcaster representatives.

4. Liberal use of traps, ambushes and elevation. Traps that make charging the enemy formation head on deadly, enemy assassins dimension dooring on your backline, archers positioned on elevated ground that cannot be easily and quickly reached by player melee characters.

5. Liberal use of proper enemy prebuffing. If the player can prebuff, so should the enemy. And I'm not talking only about stat-increasing buffs, but various immunities as well that would make dumpstering entire encounters with one spell harder.

The problem with implementing all of these and other methods, however, lies in the fact that the developers need to actually understand the ruleset they're working with and how their game works in general. Owlclowns have demonstrated time and time again that they have absolutely no idea how their games work which is why all they can do is create statblocks and throw them in a pile without any kind of synergy.
Yeah I agree with you on that. But I think those points would only work beyond normal difficulty, as casual players, the majority of their player base, wouldn't be able to play with those terms ("what do you mean my glass cannon 150 IQ wizard self insert dies every fight before their first turn? Lame game").
Somehow Fromsoft was able to get successful by ignoring casual gamers and making their games harder while using that as a selling point. Thinking about Dark Souls as an example, they doubled down on the difficulty with the next DLC and even released the "Prepare to Die edition" to use higher difficulty as part of the marketing.

If anything, casual gamers are best ignored until they learn that visual novels are the genre for them.
I'm not sure if it's laziness, lack of time/resources or just technical incompetence, but the result is the same, these games could be a lot better than they are.
It's likely all of the above.
 

Fedora Master

STOP POSTING
Patron
Edgy
Joined
Jun 28, 2017
Messages
29,530
We've been over this. Owlscat can't design systems for shit and their only recourse is adding more NUMBAHS to enemies. They're the equivalent of a sweatty fat GM going "Uuuuh akshullly the boss has 40AC and there's like a dozen mooks in the shadows that you never noticed o-okay?"

You'd think these Asiatics were better with math.
 

MjKorz

Educated
Joined
Jul 11, 2022
Messages
207
Players shouldn't be able to see enemy stats.
Players not being able to see enemy stats still doesn't solve the target prioritization advantage players can enjoy just by looking at the enemy party composition and making intelligent guesses regarding target strengths and weaknesses. If the player can make intelligent guesses and prioritize targets based on weaknesses and threat level, so should the AI. Sadly, in an overwhelming majority of encounters, enemies target mostly the closest targets with only scripted encounters changing enemy target prioritization.

Line of sight, obstacles, etc.
Which means that the enemy archers shouldn't remain stationary and instead change position to hit easier targets. This is not some kind of otherworldly concept that requires alien tech, it's something that has already been implemented in countless TBT games and Japanese SRPGs.

Though in some cases, the enemies do target backliners in WotR.
Mostly scripted encounters where the enemies are coded to go for the MC after a cutscene who may or may not be in the back.

That being said, if you know enemies were to target exclusive wizards whenever possible, you either learn to exploit it, i.e. in Kingmaker's AI mod where you get tons of free AoO against enemies charging the backline. With archers targeting bakcliners, a player would simply designed Wizards around the fact that they're going to be targeted by making the wizard as invincible as possible against the archers so that either the archers will be baited into wasting their shots or to no longer prioratize wizards and still waste their shots while the enemies are cleared.
First of all, enemies should practice smart target prioritization which means targeting the weakest defenses which may or may not be backliners, depending on their buffs. Secondly, there is nothing wrong with active counterplay against enemy tactics as this is an expression of tactical depth - the need to adapt your tactics to specific situations and encounters.

The problem with traps in this game is that they are player character exclusive.
That's actually not a problem inherently, such behavior can be explained by a simple notion of enemies being informed about the locations of their own traps and not stepping into them. It's a crude explanation and requires some suspension of disbelief, but it's good enough for gameplay purposes. The real solution to this would be just code enemy pathfinding to walk around their own traps, but that requires competence.

That being said, this is done quite a few times in WotR and even kingmaker as there are traps sometimes between you and nearby enemies.
Yes, there are encounters with traps positioned between the player and enemy units like those you find in Currantglen underground, but encounters like these are extremely rare. Traps should be used far more liberally to create tactical depth (i.e. the need to adapt) and increase the usefulness of trickery skill in combat.

This is done in a few encounters in WotR.
Yes, Babau Infiltrators do that, which is good (their presence, not their extreme rarity, which is very bad).

Though the player just learns to put melees in the backline and to put "backliners" between characters. It doesn't add very much challenge in general.
It adds the need for active counterplay which is good and it also adds a strong element of danger when teleporting enemies use reach weapons and are capable of high burst damage that can chunk your vulnerable low AC characters in one flurry even if you surround them with martials.

They use prebuffing in WotR.
Mostly used on bosses and some select end-game enemies. Prebuffing should be far more liberal and should be applied to enemies at any stage of the game to compensate for the loss of stat bloat relative to tabletop.
 

MerchantKing

Learned
Joined
Jun 5, 2023
Messages
1,386
Players shouldn't be able to see enemy stats.
Players not being able to see enemy stats still doesn't solve the target prioritization advantage players can enjoy just by looking at the enemy party composition and making intelligent guesses regarding target strengths and weaknesses.
A player still has to make an intelligent guess. BTW, the AI is not a player. The AI exists to simulate the behaviors of non-player characters in combat. Given that this is an RPG, there is plenty of reason to suggest that making decisions like a player would even with limited information should not be done by denizens of the world. Mechanics can also be made by improving the behavior of line of sight to further limit player information such removing vision from an area behind an obstacle.

Too much information and designing a game around information a player should not have especially when a computer game can be programmed to further limit information is one of the real flaws. Not in programming AI to do the opposite of what it should be doing in an RPG, that is makign decisions based on game mechanics instead of simulating character behaviors. The biggest problem here is that developers do not implement enough simulation elements.
If the player can make intelligent guesses and prioritize targets based on weaknesses and threat level, so should the AI. Sadly, in an overwhelming majority of encounters,
Closest targets are often the most logical targets as I want the most threatening characters to be the closest to the enemies. I can let the caster die and burn a cheap scroll to revive him as I was already planning to.
enemies target mostly the closest targets with only scripted encounters changing enemy target prioritization.
Enemies will prioratize low AC characters in this game if they are close enough while initially attacking. I have seen this occur plenty of times without the additional behaviors. Sometimes I've even seen enemies change targets to attack low AC characters. This is even in non-scripted encounters. I think the problem is that you haven't played these games since Kingmaker and are extrapolating based on Kingmaker.
Line of sight, obstacles, etc.
Which means that the enemy archers shouldn't remain stationary and instead change position to hit easier targets. This is not some kind of otherworldly concept that requires alien tech, it's something that has already been implemented in countless TBT games
Most of them do not have a line of sight mechanics either.
and Japanese SRPGs.
None of them have line of sight mechanics. Especially in JRPGs, they move because they're programmed to move when they have a move action available. Not for any tactical reasons.

As far as line of sight mechanics are concerned, Rogue Trader does have one though.
Though in some cases, the enemies do target backliners in WotR.
Mostly scripted encounters where the enemies are coded to go for the MC after a cutscene who may or may not be in the back.
Not mostly scripted. Sometimes it occurs in random encounters. Moreover, you lack a lot of insight into the idea. A lack of line of light means that the enemy may not even know a character is there which means they shouldn't be maneuvering to attack a character does not see. Unlike in this game, line of sight is required and can be implemented with individualized fog of war.
That being said, if you know enemies were to target exclusive wizards whenever possible, you either learn to exploit it, i.e. in Kingmaker's AI mod where you get tons of free AoO against enemies charging the backline. With archers targeting bakcliners, a player would simply designed Wizards around the fact that they're going to be targeted by making the wizard as invincible as possible against the archers so that either the archers will be baited into wasting their shots or to no longer prioratize wizards and still waste their shots while the enemies are cleared.
First of all, enemies should practice smart target prioritization which means targeting the weakest defenses which may or may not be backliners, depending on their buffs.
They shouldn't know what the weakest defense are. Neither should the players. Nor should most non-magical characters know what buffs are on a target as they should not have the knowledge needed to identify them. "Smart prioratization" can be easily exploited, especially in a game with buffs. Most of the cases it is implemented, it makes the game easier since you can just exploit their behavior to make the game even easier than before.
Secondly, there is nothing wrong with active counterplay against enemy tactics as this is an expression of tactical depth - the need to adapt your tactics to specific situations and encounters.
Except the "tactical depth" in this game is just playing the caster the way you should already being playing it. If the counterplay is just playing the same way as normal, that is buffing everything, it's not really counterplay.
The problem with traps in this game is that they are player character exclusive.
That's actually not a problem inherently, such behavior can be explained by a simple notion of enemies being informed about the locations of their own traps and not stepping into them. It's a crude explanation and requires some suspension of disbelief, but it's good enough for gameplay purposes. The real solution to this would be just code enemy pathfinding to walk around their own traps, but that requires competence.
But they do step on them. The trigger for a trap is a large square or rectangle spanning an area and they stand right on top of the trigger without triggering it. Suspension of disbelief is cope in this case and a non-argument.
That being said, this is done quite a few times in WotR and even kingmaker as there are traps sometimes between you and nearby enemies.
Yes, there are encounters with traps positioned between the player and enemy units like those you find in Currantglen underground, but encounters like these are extremely rare.
They're not that rare if you exclude random encounters from consideration. Most areas have at least one or two places where there is a set of traps with enemies that engage you while you're in the proximity of the trap. There are probably four or five of these in Drezen alone during the siege.

Within the first system in Rogue Trader, I ran into about four or five ambushes as well. They didn't add anything to the difficulty though.

There are also quite a few random ambush encounters possible in WotR where your party starts with enemies surrounding you or behind you and the enemies have a suprise round.
Traps should be used far more liberally to create tactical depth (i.e. the need to adapt) and increase the usefulness of trickery skill in combat.
They are already used quite liberally.
This is done in a few encounters in WotR.
Yes, Babau Infiltrators do that, which is good (their presence, not their extreme rarity, which is very bad).
More than just the Babau inflitrators. There are quite a few invisible enemies other than that that try to sneak up on you to flank you.
Though the player just learns to put melees in the backline and to put "backliners" between characters. It doesn't add very much challenge in general.
It adds the need for active counterplay which is good and it also adds a strong element of danger when teleporting enemies use reach weapons
Teleportation in most cases requires access to at least 4th level spells within the 3e/pf ruleset. Usually this requires a standard action to implement. BTW, WotR already has enemies that do this like some of those Babau. But then your argument is that Owlcat is still all prebuffing?
and are capable of high burst damage that can chunk your vulnerable low AC characters in one flurry
Designing encounters just around killing backliners is also bad design. Why? Because all you have to do is leave the low AC characters at the entrance of the map while the high AC characters who also have high saves, high AB, and high damage, clean up everything as usual. No tactical depth required to beat this design. It just ends up making the caster characters and so on who are lower AC just not be used for anything but buffing the same way someone playing Kingmaker or Wrath "solo" would and the same way some of the caster classes are already used.

Not using a character is not skill expression btw as you can counter this by simply buffing the casters like you should already be doing and as was already done as far back as Kingmaker.
even if you surround them with martials.
Shouldn't happen in that case. It is incredible retarded to let characters with any weapon attack through obstacles whether than obstacle is a rock or another character. BTW, reach weapons are supposed to get penalties from cover in tabletop if there is a character between the target and the attacker.

Also, the combination of concealment+cover from surrounding characters would make the caster more likely to survive even with reach weapons. So they'd actually be less successful attacking those characters than if they just attacked the martials in the first place.
They use prebuffing in WotR.
Mostly used on bosses and some select end-game enemies. Prebuffing should be far more liberal and should be applied to enemies at any stage of the game to compensate for the loss of stat bloat relative to tabletop.
It's like you ignored all the Votaries and quite a few of the alchemist and caster normal enemies that start their fight by getting a dozen quickcasted buffs. There were even quite a few enemies in Kingmaker that weren't bosses that still buffed themselves heavily before and during fights. Enemy alchemists are also an example in Kingmaker. Owlcat already implemented this for quite a few enemies. Most of the enemies that prebuff are not bosses or select end-game enemies.
 

MjKorz

Educated
Joined
Jul 11, 2022
Messages
207
Given that this is an RPG, there is plenty of reason to suggest that making decisions like a player would even with limited information should not be done by denizens of the world.
AI not being able to prioritize targets based on their defenses and threat level due to having no information and thus no ability to estimate such concepts while the player can do so even while lacking precise information creates a massive disparity in tactical adaptability of both parties which heavily favors the player and creates the need to strengthen enemy units in order to compensate for suboptimal behavior. There are only two solutions to this problem: provide precise information to both parties which is fair or provide limited information to the AI while leaving the player guessing based on visual or some other (e.g. narrative) ques. Your statement that no information should be provided to either party is not based on any argumentation, it's based simply on your preference and that preference leads to dogshit design - compensation of stupid behavior via stat bloat.

Mechanics can also be made by improving the behavior of line of sight to further limit player information
Which solves nothing, because players can make intelligent guesses even with limited information. No matter how hard you gimp the player in terms of provided information, people will still exhibit intelligent target prioritization based on available ques. Deny this to the AI and you get an artificial idiot acting in a predictable manner and thus removing the need for tactical adaptability, i.e. removing the tactical depth from the game.

information a player should not have
This is not supported by anything other than your subjective preference. The need to have information provided to both parties is supported by the fact that this evens out the playing field (as much as it's possible with AI) in terms of intelligent target prioritization between the player and the AI.

Closest targets are often the most logical targets
No, they aren't. The most logical targets are those that are the most convenient to attack based on their defenses and threat level.

Enemies will prioratize low AC characters in this game if they are close enough while initially attacking.
Wrong and easily proven via archer behavior. Archers will attack mostly closest targets even if they have lower AC targets in sight. Target prioritization may or may not occur if melee enemies (usually with very long reach) have multiple targets in range, but this is never guaranteed even on unfair with super long reach characters like Deskari. If these same melee enemies start attacking one high AC character and then you move a lower AC character into their range, no target prioritization occurs unless the enemy keeps missing the target for many turns and only in RTwP mode. I have not observed this behavior in TB mode.

I think the problem is that you haven't played these games since Kingmaker and are extrapolating based on Kingmaker.
The problem is that you have no clue what you're talking about and keep getting game behavior wrong, caused by your lack of game experience.

Most of them do not have a line of sight mechanics either.
"Most" means nothing when there are plenty that do. JA2 and UFO games are considered as some of the best in the genre an they have both line of sight and friendly fire mechanics. Even newer TBT titles like Mordheim have line of sight mechanics as well.

None of them have line of sight mechanics.
Wrong. Japanese SRPGs as old as Hoshigami have both line of sight and friendly fire when firing bows.

Not for any tactical reasons.
The tactical reason is to maximize hit chance and avoid friendly fire.

Not mostly scripted. Sometimes it occurs in random encounters.
Precisely mostly scripted, precisely mostly after a cutscene when they are scripted to target the MC. Or in cases when specific enemies are scripted to attack a particular character like the Sarkorian Kinslayer attacking Ulbrig. Archer target prioritization is based mostly on proximity, the cases when for some unexplainable reason they choose to ignore the first closest target is presented to them are exceedingly rare and do not follow any pattern.

line of sight is required and can be implemented with individualized fog of war
Individualized fog of war cannot be implemented for the player who controls the entire party and has the visual information from every character. If you chose to implement individualized fog of war for the AI while the player sees everything (and the player will see everything unless you have different people controlling different characters and even then players could communicate), you're just gimping the AI, creating another instance for the need to compensate for suboptimal AI behavior via stat bloat.

Except the "tactical depth" in this game is just playing the caster the way you should already being playing it. If the counterplay is just playing the same way as normal, that is buffing everything, it's not really counterplay.
Wrong. Using spells of level 2 and 3 on protections such as Mirror Image, Communal Protection From Arrows and Displacement, when those same spell levels can be used for devastating AoE disabling spells such as Winter's Grasp, FavoriteSelective + FavoriteExtended Sound Burst and Stinking Cloud + Corruptor, in cases when you don't actually need those protections is a waste and suboptimal play. You lack the insight how to play a proper caster.

But they do step on them.
Yes, because Owlclowns are incapable of coding proper pathfinding. As I said, that would be the perfect solution. The only problem with traps stems from developer incompetence, enemies not triggering traps is not a problem, because in the hands of a competent developer they'd have the pathfinding to walk around them.

They're not that rare if you exclude random encounters from consideration. Most areas have at least one or two places where there is a set of traps with enemies that engage you while you're in the proximity of the trap.
Wrong. They are exceptionally rare. "Proximity of the trap" means nothing when the trap is out of the player's way used to approach the enemy. In-combat instances where traps are placed specifically on the only path players can use to approach the enemy are exceedingly rare. I already gave you an example: Currantglen underground on the 2nd visit where you need to approach a group of scavengers near the altar has a trap placed in a chokepoint that is unavoidable by a party moving in formation and can only be avoided by a single character carefully maneuvering around it. These are the traps that matter in combat, simple "proximity" means absolutely nothing as long as you can find the trap.

There are also quite a few random ambush encounters possible in WotR where your party starts with enemies surrounding you or behind you and the enemies have a suprise round.
Correct, and in those cases target prioritization still plays by the same proximity rules already covered above. Since the party members start surrounded, you get enemies targeting multiple party members based on their proximity.

They are already used quite liberally.
Wrong, they aren't. Traps that inevitably need to be maneuvered around in combat due to being placed on critical approach routes or in chokepoints are exceedingly rare.

invisible enemies
Have nothing to do with teleportation and are instantly spotted by any properly prebuffed party. Not even mind-blank will save them from echolocation.

Teleportation in most cases requires access to at least 4th level spells within the 3e/pf ruleset. Usually this requires a standard action to implement. BTW, WotR already has enemies that do this like some of those Babau. But then your argument is that Owlcat is still all prebuffing?
Access to teleportation is a question of enemy character builds, including access to scrolls (something Kuroisan the Acid Kensai tormented players with in BG2 Tactics two decades ago and still cannot be properly copied by professional devs) or wands via UMD. Casting dimension door as a spell via swift action is a question of access to quicken rods or metamagics. You can solve the "problem" of creating such enemies in various ways, including just letting them cast it as a standard action and not having them attack on the same round for a weaker version of an enemy archetype. Yes, there are babau Infiltrators that I have already mentioned, which are exceedingly rare and are only present in a couple of places in the game. I have nothing against prebuffing enemies with actual in-game legal buffs, but that's not what Owlclowns do: they bloat enemy stats relative to tabletop in a manner that cannot be countered via dispel and they do this specifically to compensate for their inability to design encounters in a smart manner.

Designing encounters just around killing backliners is also bad design. Why? Because all you have to do is leave the low AC characters at the entrance of the map while the high AC characters who also have high saves, high AB, and high damage, clean up everything as usual. No tactical depth required to beat this design.
Forcing the player to adapt to various tactical scenarios is good design, because it creates tactical depth. The goal is to not kill the player backliners, the goal is to force the player to adapt by switching up their tactics. If you leave your low AC characters behind, you have to fight with less characters which is a forced adaptation. Alternatively, you can just protect your low AC characters with multiple layers of defenses: mirror image + displacement or blink (in cases where enemies can negate or reroll your displacement). You have no clue how to set up defenses.

It just ends up making the caster characters and so on who are lower AC just not be used for anything but buffing
Absolute nonsense. Offensive casters are the strongest classes in any situation. If all else fails (which it shouldn't), a proper offensive caster can be set up to have unbeatable initiative and enough spell DC to disable entire encounters before they are threatened. As stated before, you lack insight on have to build casters.

Not using a character
Is your problem due to lack of game knowledge.

Shouldn't happen in that case.
That's exactly how it happens in WotR. If you advocate for implementing more advanced cover mechanics from TT, then I have nothing against it.

It's like you ignored all the Votaries and quite a few of the alchemist and caster normal enemies that start their fight by getting a dozen quickcasted buffs.
Like I said before: the vast majority of enemies in either Kingmaker or WotR are unbuffed (via legal in-game buffs) trash mobs. Of those exceptional few regular enemies that are buffed, most are buffed with only a few spells even in the endgame. The proper prebuffing treatment is granted almost exclusively to bosses and mini-bosses like the Desolating Gallu Stormcallers. Instead of bloating enemy stats in a way that cannot be dispelled, they should be buffed via legal in-game buffs. The resultant loss of encounter challenge should be compensated via improvements to AI and encounter design.
 

Yosharian

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
9,905
Location
Grand Chien
Those Stormcallers use Tsunami which filters so many players, I've seen tons of people saying they are impossible to beat lol

Well that and the fire spell I forget the name

The larger issue is Owlcat's tendency to create an interesting enemy (regardless of how you feel about how it's buffed) and then copy paste it 25 times throughout the map and call it a day
 
Last edited:

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,574
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Seeing enemy stats required a somewhat challenging skill check in P:K, with the specific skill dependent on the type of enemy.

They turned off that check for the WotR Alpha/Beta and the existence of the Inspect ability was evidently such a revelation to so many players that they left it off on release.

Should be turned back on.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,574
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
The ship has a lot of annoying/challenging trap set-ups in the middle of fights.
 

MjKorz

Educated
Joined
Jul 11, 2022
Messages
207
Lads, do You recommend starting another run in Rogue Trader right now, or maybe wait till both dlcs will make main campaign an uber long one?
Wait for the DLC. They're making changes to archetype abilities and the new companion will be integrated into the game from early on.
 
Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
18,592
Location
大同
Lads, do You recommend starting another run in Rogue Trader right now, or maybe wait till both dlcs will make main campaign an uber long one?
Wait for the DLC. They're making changes to archetype abilities and the new companion will be integrated into the game from early on.
Agreed in principle, although OTOH I also dread thinking about how buggy that new content will probably be. :M
 

scytheavatar

Scholar
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Messages
511
WotR is the game designed statbloat relative to tabletop became the norm as rather than fixing how mechanics are implemented, i.e. that Armor Enhancement increases an object's armor class and doesn't give the player an enhancement bonus or that most natural armor sources do not stack unless they are specified to either increase natural armor, i.e. mutagen natural armor and legendary proportions natural armor do not stack, or the flanking rules not being implemented.

Statbloat on everything comes from the ruleset.
But that would mean that the (falsely perceived) need for bloating enemy stats does not come from the ruleset, it comes from the incorrect implementation of the ruleset. If you implement the various stacking rules the way they should work in tabletop, you'd have less of a (falsely perceived) need to bloat enemy stats to compensate for the theoretical buff stacking the player can achieve.

Players being able to spam buffs on everything and for everythign is a feature of WotC 3e just like how MTG has been since +1/+1 counters were added to the game. It was present in NWN, NWN2, ToEE. If you look at the average NWN1+2 builds for example, you'll always find calculations for saves and AB where all these bonuses are applied to show you can get +50 AB, 60 AC, +30 saves, etc. or something else along those lines because that's what the WotC ruleset allowed. Pf1e just took it to new heights by adding more abilities to everything. If anything, the statbloat already occurred in tabletop as buffing everything was made incredibly easy. In comparison, in spite of its many faults, WotC 5e does this better as attributes tend to be lower and you really cannot stack a billion effects at once due to constraints like concentration for magic buffs.
Being able to stack numerous in-game legal buffs is actually not a problem, because you can use the same buffs to empower enemies during encounters. The problem lies with not wanting to use those in-game legal buffs on enemies and instead just giving every trash mob unexplainable +16 to all stats that cannot be dispelled. There wouldn't be much of a problem, if both the player and the enemies played by the same rules when it comes to (pre)buffing, the problem is that Owlclowns have a policy of buffing mostly just bosses and select end-game mobs while leaving the majority of trash unbuffed, even in cases where such buffs would make perfect sense due to enemies being accompanied by arcane/divine spellcasters.

Dispel this Dispel that gameplay which seems to be what you are advocating is the least fun form of combat one can have...... the fundamental problem is that buffs are a mistake and rather than to add tactical depth to the combat they actively subtract from it. Ideally you should be put in situations where you have to decide whether to cast Fireball or Haste, instead in D&D/PF you HAVE to cast Haste and can cast Fireball if you have leftover spell slots.
 

MjKorz

Educated
Joined
Jul 11, 2022
Messages
207
Lads, do You recommend starting another run in Rogue Trader right now, or maybe wait till both dlcs will make main campaign an uber long one?
Wait for the DLC. They're making changes to archetype abilities and the new companion will be integrated into the game from early on.
Agreed in principle, although OTOH I also dread thinking about how buggy that new content will probably be. :M
Yes, you can add half a year on top of their release dates, if you want a bearably bug-ridden experience instead of a catastrophically bug-ridden one like the one I had when I played Rogue Trader on launch.

WotR is the game designed statbloat relative to tabletop became the norm as rather than fixing how mechanics are implemented, i.e. that Armor Enhancement increases an object's armor class and doesn't give the player an enhancement bonus or that most natural armor sources do not stack unless they are specified to either increase natural armor, i.e. mutagen natural armor and legendary proportions natural armor do not stack, or the flanking rules not being implemented.

Statbloat on everything comes from the ruleset.
But that would mean that the (falsely perceived) need for bloating enemy stats does not come from the ruleset, it comes from the incorrect implementation of the ruleset. If you implement the various stacking rules the way they should work in tabletop, you'd have less of a (falsely perceived) need to bloat enemy stats to compensate for the theoretical buff stacking the player can achieve.

Players being able to spam buffs on everything and for everythign is a feature of WotC 3e just like how MTG has been since +1/+1 counters were added to the game. It was present in NWN, NWN2, ToEE. If you look at the average NWN1+2 builds for example, you'll always find calculations for saves and AB where all these bonuses are applied to show you can get +50 AB, 60 AC, +30 saves, etc. or something else along those lines because that's what the WotC ruleset allowed. Pf1e just took it to new heights by adding more abilities to everything. If anything, the statbloat already occurred in tabletop as buffing everything was made incredibly easy. In comparison, in spite of its many faults, WotC 5e does this better as attributes tend to be lower and you really cannot stack a billion effects at once due to constraints like concentration for magic buffs.
Being able to stack numerous in-game legal buffs is actually not a problem, because you can use the same buffs to empower enemies during encounters. The problem lies with not wanting to use those in-game legal buffs on enemies and instead just giving every trash mob unexplainable +16 to all stats that cannot be dispelled. There wouldn't be much of a problem, if both the player and the enemies played by the same rules when it comes to (pre)buffing, the problem is that Owlclowns have a policy of buffing mostly just bosses and select end-game mobs while leaving the majority of trash unbuffed, even in cases where such buffs would make perfect sense due to enemies being accompanied by arcane/divine spellcasters.

Dispel this Dispel that gameplay which seems to be what you are advocating is the least fun form of combat one can have...... the fundamental problem is that buffs are a mistake and rather than to add tactical depth to the combat they actively subtract from it. Ideally you should be put in situations where you have to decide whether to cast Fireball or Haste, instead in D&D/PF you HAVE to cast Haste and can cast Fireball if you have leftover spell slots.
You are right, allowing pre-buffing is a horrible design choice as it eliminates the action economy associated cost of buffs. Every buff cast should carry an action economy associated opportunity cost that forces the caster to adapt to the tactical situation and choose the most appropriate spell at the moment: be it a buff or an offensive spell. Pillars of Eternity solved this problem in a decisive manner by simply not allowing out of combat pre-buffing with most spells, you could only consume food. Rogue Trader follows this approach as well which is good.

However, we are talking about an already established ruleset where pre-buffing cannot be simply forbidden and you have to search for workarounds to reintroduce the action economy associated costs of buffing. Since the player is going to pre-buff and thus avoid expending actions mid-combat to buff anyway, you need to re-introduce this action cost of buffing in some other way and this is where dispel comes in: it allows enemies to strip player buffs mid-combat and potentially force the player to expend actions for re-buffing (e.g. fighting a dragon with a high DC Fear aura who dispels your Greater Heroism or Shield of Law and thus removes your Fear immunity). While dispelling also carries an action cost, it's not as important for the enemy as it is for the player since the number of enemies in encounters can be adjusted to take dispellers into account.
 
Last edited:

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
15,622
Location
Frostfell
About bloat, IMO the greatest problem of OwlCat is not even bloat.

Is that you can get a lot of powerful abilities consequence-free even when it makes no sense? For example, Cruoromancer is a necromancer wizard who uses his own blood to empower his spells. Cool, right? How da fuck can you use it while transformed into a lich? Talking about Lich, you can be a cleric of Pharasma and a Lich. It makes absolutely zero sense.

Rogue Trader is no different; they implemented the perils of the warp, but they stopped being a problem too quickly, and you can tone down the damage to the veil too much, to the point that I was spamming Molten Beam 24/7 consequence-free and never experienced anything bad after I picked some talents to restore the veil.

Pascal`s plasma weapons were more dangerous than hell/warpfire.

But OwlCat games > rest despite all flaws.
 

Yosharian

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
9,905
Location
Grand Chien
Pre-buffing presents serious problems to balance, not to mention that it can become extremely tiresome to buff before every fight with 300 spells.

Mods solve this issue by allowing automatic buff sequences with the press of a button. But buff sequences are still complex, and setting them up can be pretty tiresome too.

PoE/Deadfire tries to solve this by only allowing buffs in combat, but that potentially just shifts the aforementioned buff sequences to the start of every fucking fight, which doesn't solve the issue of: buffing is tiresome. I grew extremely tired of casting the same buff spells over and over in Deadfire. They also have extremely short durations which again is fucking tiresome.

5E's solution of tying buffs to concentration solves the problem neatly - you must choose which buffs to have active. But it has its own cost, since now all buffs must compete against one another for concentration, and usually one buff always wins, making the other buff obsolete. To be entirely fair, this isn't always the case and some buffs are situationally powerful rather than being universally so. But generally speaking there is one concentration spell that you simply must have, and the rest of your spell slots go to non-concentration spells.

There isn't an easy solution at all
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
15,622
Location
Frostfell
PoE/Deadfire tries to solve this by only allowing buffs in combat

Which is RIDICULOUS. And lead monsters to lose a lot of interesting abilities.

Imo if the party is in a undead crypt, spells like negative plane protection are a necessity. If is fine for a group to buy antidote before going into a poisonous swamp, why casting magical protection against poisons isn't fine? If you take it out from pcs, poison end up being less powerful as they can't protect themselves from it. You end up punishing preparation and makes no sense.

In wh40k Owlcat could have made having too much buffs from psyker being too dangerous to be worthy using endless buffs.
 

scytheavatar

Scholar
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Messages
511
PoE/Deadfire tries to solve this by only allowing buffs in combat

Which is RIDICULOUS. And lead monsters to lose a lot of interesting abilities.

Imo if the party is in a undead crypt, spells like negative plane protection are a necessity. If is fine for a group to buy antidote before going into a poisonous swamp, why casting magical protection against poisons isn't fine? If you take it out from pcs, poison end up being less powerful as they can't protect themselves from it. You end up punishing preparation and makes no sense.

In wh40k Owlcat could have made having too much buffs from psyker being too dangerous to be worthy using endless buffs.

In general, magic to solve poison or other staus is dogshit design and you might as well not have those status in the game if that's the case. You should be terrified of being poison, not be "LOL who cares about poison? I have delay poison communal".
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,574
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
There *is* a tradeoff on pre-buffs: spell slots. Giving up a Mythic Ability (or 3) to get Abundant Casting is in fact a massive opportunity cost, as is bringing along a caster who is otherwise weak for a good chunk of the game to cast them.

The tedium is the main problem, not the brokenness, as is the tunnel vision that thinks it has to bring them all when unnecessary. Many martials are good enough not to need all those buffs, as can be seen on fights where they're stripped or an ambush prevents getting them up. A well-designed offensive caster can also be great in those situations to apply debuffs/control instead. Nothing stopping you from using that as a general strategy.

It is in fact also nontrivial for most of the game to pass the Dispel checks needed for a Dispel strategy (and TTT nerfs Dispel, Greater to only remove one effect per 4 caster levels). Dispel, Greater doesn't show up until pretty late on Hybrid casters (Bard book gets it at spell lvl 5, others at lvl 6). Disenchanter Warpriest makes good use of regular Dispel for several levels in a way that doesn't unbalance the game, while serving as a solid tank with an activated in combat AoE ability to ward off enemy spells.

It is also good balance that the Mythic Paths with the best Dispels are those without Merging.
 

MjKorz

Educated
Joined
Jul 11, 2022
Messages
207
PoE/Deadfire tries to solve this by only allowing buffs in combat, but that potentially just shifts the aforementioned buff sequences to the start of every fucking fight, which doesn't solve the issue of: buffing is tiresome. I grew extremely tired of casting the same buff spells over and over in Deadfire. They also have extremely short durations which again is fucking tiresome.

5E's solution of tying buffs to concentration solves the problem neatly - you must choose which buffs to have active. But it has its own cost, since now all buffs must compete against one another for concentration, and usually one buff always wins, making the other buff obsolete. To be entirely fair, this isn't always the case and some buffs are situationally powerful rather than being universally so. But generally speaking there is one concentration spell that you simply must have, and the rest of your spell slots go to non-concentration spells.

There isn't an easy solution at all
PoE solves the problem at its root: implements action economy associated opportunity cost for every buff cast and ensures that the optimal way to buff is to use only the precise buffs you need in a specific encounter. You shouldn't be casting the same buffs every encounter, you should only be expending actions to cast precisely what is needed and using the rest of your actions on offense.

Concentration is a horrible mechanic, because it is used for both defensive (buffs) and offensive spells. At first, this may seem like a good idea since it makes the choice of which concentration spell to cast in an encounter more meaningful, but in practice it dramatically reduces the variety of spells a caster is going to use in any encounter.

For example, I've played BG3 as an Enchanter and even though Hold Person/Monster is an incredibly powerful spell (enables autocrits against held target), in many cases simply casting Haste on my melee champion was the more practical decision. Niche concentration spells that could be useful in certain tactical scenarios become useless since they simply cannot compete with the top general purpose ones like Haste. If concentration was removed, you could still cast those niche spells after using Haste, thus increasing the variety of spells used overall, but concentration makes their use impractical.

Another problem with concentration is that it catastrophically reduces the opportunities for spell synergy. For example, the combination of AoE immobilizing + AoE DoT spells (e.g. Web + Stinking Cloud) becomes impossible to execute by a single caster and using a second caster carries a dramatic opportunity cost of a party slot which in many cases is going to be too high. In other words, concentration reduces the opportunities to cleverly adapt combinations of spells to specific tactical encounters and thus reduces tactical depth.
 

MjKorz

Educated
Joined
Jul 11, 2022
Messages
207
PoE/Deadfire tries to solve this by only allowing buffs in combat

Which is RIDICULOUS. And lead monsters to lose a lot of interesting abilities.

Imo if the party is in a undead crypt, spells like negative plane protection are a necessity. If is fine for a group to buy antidote before going into a poisonous swamp, why casting magical protection against poisons isn't fine? If you take it out from pcs, poison end up being less powerful as they can't protect themselves from it. You end up punishing preparation and makes no sense.

In wh40k Owlcat could have made having too much buffs from psyker being too dangerous to be worthy using endless buffs.
It's not ridiculous when the buffs have short duration which they do in PoE. You want to cast them precisely at the moment they're needed to maximize their usefulness and avoid wasting any of their brief duration which is measured in dozens of seconds at best.
 

MjKorz

Educated
Joined
Jul 11, 2022
Messages
207
There *is* a tradeoff on pre-buffs: spell slots. Giving up a Mythic Ability (or 3) to get Abundant Casting is in fact a massive opportunity cost, as is bringing along a caster who is otherwise weak for a good chunk of the game to cast them.

The tedium is the main problem, not the brokenness, as is the tunnel vision that thinks it has to bring them all when unnecessary. Many martials are good enough not to need all those buffs, as can be seen on fights where they're stripped or an ambush prevents getting them up. A well-designed offensive caster can also be great in those situations to apply debuffs/control instead. Nothing stopping you from using that as a general strategy.

It is in fact also nontrivial for most of the game to pass the Dispel checks needed for a Dispel strategy (and TTT nerfs Dispel, Greater to only remove one effect per 4 caster levels). Dispel, Greater doesn't show up until pretty late on Hybrid casters (Bard book gets it at spell lvl 5, others at lvl 6). Disenchanter Warpriest makes good use of regular Dispel for several levels in a way that doesn't unbalance the game, while serving as a solid tank with an activated in combat AoE ability to ward off enemy spells.

It is also good balance that the Mythic Paths with the best Dispels are those without Merging.

Expending spell slots is not a trade-off, because in most dungeons you can just rest. It only becomes a trade-off in the endurance gauntlet dungeons I've mentioned earlier, except not really, because you're not going to cast buffs with your offensive caster anyway. Same applies to buffer casters: you're not going to cast offensive spells with them, because the game has only enough gear to properly support one offensive DC caster and one offensive ray caster.

Abundant Casting is indeed a massive opportunity cost, because same mythic abilities can be spent on favorite metamagics and other things like corruptor or ascendant element, which is why abundant casting is never taken by DC casters and is only taken by ray casters on their last three mythics when their build is already done.

The problem lies both in the tedium and the possibility to prebuff, because the game developers are "forced" to balance every encounter around the assumption that the player is going to prebuff. Remove prebuffing and you reduce the need to bloat enemy stats on top of increasing tactical depth by forcing the player to balance both buffs and offensive spells in an encounter.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,574
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
You can’t rest the first four levels if you want to get everything before Defense triggers. You can’t rest in Garrison without losing Haste. If you’re not abusing reloads then blowing your wad on map locations risks getting ambushed on World Map until your Stealth is high enough to avoid.

Leper’s Smile and Lost Chapel require some rest management as does Drezen now that Corruption was turned back on. If you’re running an Arcane buffer *and* a DC caster that’s two slots that significantly cut into what else you can do. For Divine, Abundant(x2) is a lot stronger when you want to get Crusader’s Edge on team and/or use strong Divine self-buffs for fighting. Likewise getting Dispel, Greater up ASAP. Nenio Illusion control is great but also takes Abundant to apply to non-boss fights in midlevels.

And then there’s Barkskins, Alch sharing Personal, unique Bard spells, Pal Veils/Fear Immunity AoE/early Angelic, Greater, etc… It isn’t straightforward, especially with Lann, Wend, Reg, Ulb, and Greybor all non-casters.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,574
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
PoE/Deadfire tries to solve this by only allowing buffs in combat

Which is RIDICULOUS. And lead monsters to lose a lot of interesting abilities.

Imo if the party is in a undead crypt, spells like negative plane protection are a necessity. If is fine for a group to buy antidote before going into a poisonous swamp, why casting magical protection against poisons isn't fine? If you take it out from pcs, poison end up being less powerful as they can't protect themselves from it. You end up punishing preparation and makes no sense.

In wh40k Owlcat could have made having too much buffs from psyker being too dangerous to be worthy using endless buffs.
It's not ridiculous when the buffs have short duration which they do in PoE. You want to cast them precisely at the moment they're needed to maximize their usefulness and avoid wasting any of their brief duration which is measured in dozens of seconds at best.
Too high a cost in action econ. Some interesting tactics involved in letting fight come to you but overall an overcorrect.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom