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Yosharian

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> You shouldn't be casting the same buffs every encounter, you should only be expending actions to cast precisely what is needed and using the rest of your actions on offense.

Did we even play the same game lol

> in practice it dramatically reduces the variety of spells a caster is going to use in any encounter

Well yes, that's basically what I said
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
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In general, magic to solve poison or other staus is dogshit design and you might as well not have those status in the game if that's the case. You should be terrified of being poison, not be "LOL who cares about poison? I have delay poison communal".

That depends a lot on the setting. For example, if the game is set in a dark low fantasy, a common venous snake must be much more dangerous than the same snake in Eberron.

> You shouldn't be casting the same buffs every encounter, you should only be expending actions to cast precisely what is needed and using the rest of your actions on offense.

Did we even play the same game lol

IMO in a WH40k game, buffs could be good but come with huge drawbacks.

For example warp speed. Could buff a lot the ally BUT each round subjected to the buff, the ally will have to do a toughtness check, each round becoming harder, if fails, he gets severe injuries in his/her legs. Stuff like complete limb regeneration could come with high risk of severe mutation and so on.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Making the Concentration limit a hard 1 in 5E is a missed opportunity.

Wiz could get a familiar/homunculus at lvl 6 that concentrates on one spell while the caster concentrates on another or you could upcast any concentration spell by 3 lvls to make it no longer require concentration or whatever.
 

Haplo

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Making the Concentration limit a hard 1 in 5E is a missed opportunity.

Wiz could get a familiar/homunculus at lvl 6 that concentrates on one spell while the caster concentrates on another or you could upcast any concentration spell by 3 lvls to make it no longer require concentration or whatever.
Yeah, a hard limit of 1, without ways to expend it is a bit harsh.

Also greatly lowers the value of most Concentration spells - and makes the value of non-Concentration spells skyrocket.


Edit: I still think its a good direction, only some allowances should have been made - a feat and/or subclass (like Desiderius' suggestion) that increases the limit. Maybe even some item that can "hold" an active spell.
I think a top limit of about 3 Concentration spells active could be just about right overall.
 
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MjKorz

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207
You can’t rest the first four levels if you want to get everything before Defense triggers. You can’t rest in Garrison without losing Haste. If you’re not abusing reloads then blowing your wad on map locations risks getting ambushed on World Map until your Stealth is high enough to avoid.

Leper’s Smile and Lost Chapel require some rest management as does Drezen now that Corruption was turned back on. If you’re running an Arcane buffer *and* a DC caster that’s two slots that significantly cut into what else you can do. For Divine, Abundant(x2) is a lot stronger when you want to get Crusader’s Edge on team and/or use strong Divine self-buffs for fighting. Likewise getting Dispel, Greater up ASAP. Nenio Illusion control is great but also takes Abundant to apply to non-boss fights in midlevels.

And then there’s Barkskins, Alch sharing Personal, unique Bard spells, Pal Veils/Fear Immunity AoE/early Angelic, Greater, etc… It isn’t straightforward, especially with Lann, Wend, Reg, Ulb, and Greybor all non-casters.
You can rest an infinite amount of time in the maze, it doesn't matter. Outside of the maze, you will get a couple of rests before the tavern defense actually triggers and you don't need to do much combat in order to not miss anything: hit the tower of Estrod, resolve the conflict between Hulrun and Ramien and save the crusaders in the library (which can be done without fighting). Obviously get Ember and Woljif. You don't need to clear every single location on the map before tavern defense.

Early game offensive spellcasting is purely Grease + Glitterdust and you don't need to spam these spells: one spell per encounter where they are needed is enough when used by a proper DC caster.

Leper's Smile and Lost Chapel are far enough into the game that you will not have any problems with spell management as long as you're actually playing a properly built and properly supported DC caster (Evil Eye, Insightful Contemplation, Touch of Law support).

Using an arcane DC caster and an arcane buffer in the same party is not suboptimal, because a Witch can be an arcane buffer while also providing hex spam (Evil Eye, Protective Luck) that benefits the entire party. Witch + Shaman evil eyes stack and can be used to debuff boss saves, making them vulnerable to disables or instant death, so there's a reason to bring BOTH a Witch (arcane buffer) and a Shaman (divine/arcane buffer) in the same party along with a Cleric (domain user). Here's a one-round unfair vescavor queen kill to demonstrate the party synergy:
jgv1w4.jpg

Note how it rolls precisely 11 on the save, because it's forced to roll precisely 11 via Touch of Law.

Abundant casting is absolutely worthless for divine casters for several reasons. First, Shamans don't need it, because they should get Enduring Spells ASAP instead as all of their spells should only be used for buffing (they have no Insightful Contemplation synergy due to being WIS-based and thus will always have pathetic spell DC). Secondly, Clerics don't need it either, because they should be focused on getting all the good domains (Law, Madness, Community, Good) as well as Domain Zealot online ASAP, then get Enduring Spells to make their buffs actually last. When using spells strictly for buffs, both Shaman and Cleric will have more than enough spellslots without Abundant Casting.

Crusader's Edge is completely irrelevant garbage on a divine caster due to garbage spell DC. It should only be used on a dedicated arcane transmuter with high transmutation spell DC, obtaining the spell requires Loremaster level(s).

Dispel is needed only on a single dedicated dispeller who should be your arcane DC caster, because arcane casters get bonus feats and can take the dispel-supporting feats (Dispel Focus, Greater Dispel Focus, Dispel Synergy, Destructive Dispel and possibly even Spell Specialization: Greater Dispel) without gimping their entire build due to such heavy feat investment. Moreover, making your DC caster a dedicated dispeller has extra synergy: Dispel Synergy debuffs saves only for the dispeller so the DC caster can actually benefit from it and Destructive Dispel DC scales with your main casting stat which is buffed via Insightful Contemplation in the case of a INT/CHA caster.

Yes, I know Oracles exist and technically can be made into offensive casters, but they are worthless garbage, because they have neither hexes, nor cleric domains and will always be at a spell DC disadvantage relative to arcane casters due to lack of unique class spell DC boosting abilities like Potent Magic, School Power, Foretell-Hinder, Aura of Despair, Fey Bloodline Arcana and Overwhelming Spell. Using them as pure buffers is a waste of a party slot, because Clerics/Shamans can buff AND provide domains/hexes.

Abundant spells are worthless on Nenio, because when properly built she will be reliably disabling even the hardest unfair encounters with one spell and you already get more than enough spells in chapter 3:
7jef3z.jpg

As a DC caster, Nenio should be using her Mythic Feats to stack 5 Expanded Arsenals for 5 different schools and her Mythic Abilities to get school-specific synergy (e.g. best Jokes for Enchantment, Corruptor for Conjuration) and Favorite Metamagics.
 

MjKorz

Educated
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Messages
207
Making the Concentration limit a hard 1 in 5E is a missed opportunity.

Wiz could get a familiar/homunculus at lvl 6 that concentrates on one spell while the caster concentrates on another or you could upcast any concentration spell by 3 lvls to make it no longer require concentration or whatever.
Yeah, a hard limit of 1, without ways to expend it is a bit harsh.

Also greatly lowers the value of most Concentration spells - and makes the value of non-Concentration spells skyrocket.


Edit: I still think its a good direction, only some allowances should have been made - a feat and/or subclass (like Desiderius' suggestion) that increases the limit. Maybe even some item that can "hold" an active spell.
I think a top limit of about 3 Concentration spells active could be just about right overall.
Specialist Wizards should get 1 free concentration for their school of choice. This way a Conjurer, for example, could cast Evard's Black Tentacles (free concentration) and then buff a melee character with Haste or envelop everyone caught in the tentacles via Cloudkill (Haste/Cloudkill expend the 1 concentration everyone has).
 

Haplo

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire

Abundant spells are worthless on Nenio, because when properly built she will be reliably disabling even the hardest unfair encounters with one spell and you already get more than enough spells in chapter 3:
7jef3z.jpg

As a DC caster, Nenio should be using her Mythic Feats to stack 5 Expanded Arsenals for 5 different schools and her Mythic Abilities to get school-specific synergy (e.g. best Jokes for Enchantment, Corruptor for Conjuration) and Favorite Metamagics.
A lot of cheese here. I don't think stacking Exapanded Arsenal is intentional. For that matter, I don't think Evil Eye stacking is intentional.
 

MjKorz

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That would make Sorcerers, and all other casters, absolute shit compared to Wizards, which are already the most powerful caster class in PNP
Sorcerers already get metamagics which wizards for some retarded reason do not. Sorcerers can already use twin spell metamagic to cast Haste on two targets. WHAT WERE THEY THINKING!?

A lot of cheese here. I don't think stacking Exapanded Arsenal is intentional. For that matter, I don't think Evil Eye stacking is intentional.
It just werks.
 

Dishonoredbr

Erudite
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Jun 13, 2019
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2,274
Making the Concentration limit a hard 1 in 5E is a missed opportunity.

Wiz could get a familiar/homunculus at lvl 6 that concentrates on one spell while the caster concentrates on another or you could upcast any concentration spell by 3 lvls to make it no longer require concentration or whatever.
Honestly i really disliked Concentration. It was so limiting to play as Druid and most buff were simply not worth casting.

It might be boring to pre buff , but I take that over having concentration and be so limited.
 

Yosharian

Arcane
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That would make Sorcerers, and all other casters, absolute shit compared to Wizards, which are already the most powerful caster class in PNP
Sorcerers already get metamagics which wizards for some retarded reason do not. Sorcerers can already use twin spell metamagic to cast Haste on two targets. WHAT WERE THEY THINKING!?

And yet Wizards are still much stronger

Your idea suggests that you don't have much experience with PNP, no offence
 

thesecret1

Arcane
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Jun 30, 2019
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6,199
Niche concentration spells that could be useful in certain tactical scenarios become useless since they simply cannot compete with the top general purpose ones like Haste.
Can you elaborate on why Haste in particular seems so great? If we're talking 5e, it's +2 to AC, which is nice, and an extra weapon attack, which is also nice. But neither seems like a must-have.
 

MjKorz

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Niche concentration spells that could be useful in certain tactical scenarios become useless since they simply cannot compete with the top general purpose ones like Haste.
Can you elaborate on why Haste in particular seems so great? If we're talking 5e, it's +2 to AC, which is nice, and an extra weapon attack, which is also nice. But neither seems like a must-have.
It's good when you have a balanced party with a dedicated damage dealer like a Champion with a two-hander or a Paladin.

Also, it's a general purpose spell that is good in literally every encounter and carries no risk of failure besides concentration break which applies to any other competing concentration spell anyway. You can't go wrong with using it so any niche offensive concentration spell carrying a possibility of failure that tries to compete with Haste has to offer dramatically more benefit in a particular tactical scenario and scenarios like that are rare.
 
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ERYFKRAD

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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Niche concentration spells that could be useful in certain tactical scenarios become useless since they simply cannot compete with the top general purpose ones like Haste.
Can you elaborate on why Haste in particular seems so great? If we're talking 5e, it's +2 to AC, which is nice, and an extra weapon attack, which is also nice. But neither seems like a must-have.
+2 to ac and an extra attack and also more movement. Makes already good frontliners very good.
 

Haplo

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Niche concentration spells that could be useful in certain tactical scenarios become useless since they simply cannot compete with the top general purpose ones like Haste.
Can you elaborate on why Haste in particular seems so great? If we're talking 5e, it's +2 to AC, which is nice, and an extra weapon attack, which is also nice. But neither seems like a must-have.
In BG3, its also another Action that can be used for a 2nd spell/ability in a round.

Outside of Honor mode, that action actually allows a 2nd full attack (so +3 attacks in case of Figher 11+ or martial Blade Warlock multiclasses).
 

thesecret1

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+2 to ac and an extra attack and also more movement. Makes already good frontliners very good.
Yeah, it's no doubt useful, but doesn't seem like something you would always pick 100% of the time. There are many other concentration spells that can prove better, depending kn the circumstance

In BG3, its also another Action that can be used for a 2nd spell/ability in a round.
Then that's Larian going against RAW
 

MjKorz

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+2 to ac and an extra attack and also more movement. Makes already good frontliners very good.
Yeah, it's no doubt useful, but doesn't seem like something you would always pick 100% of the time. There are many other concentration spells that can prove better, depending kn the circumstance
Keyword: can, but not guaranteed. Haste always works, always provides a massive benefit with a party composition that has a dedicated melee damage dealer. Even for casters it's extremely useful as they can haste and throw more damage spells per round (I played BG3 on launch on tactician and have no idea what changes Larian have introduced in their newest updates). Stacking spell DC to a point where you beat enemy saves 95% of the time is non-trivial in 5e due to the "bounded accuracy" design philosophy, although BG3 has very good itemization for DC casters. Still, even if you can reach 95% success rate on your disabling spells, you still get extra roadblocks like legendary wards. Meanwhile: Haste just works. Always.
 

thesecret1

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+2 to ac and an extra attack and also more movement. Makes already good frontliners very good.
Yeah, it's no doubt useful, but doesn't seem like something you would always pick 100% of the time. There are many other concentration spells that can prove better, depending kn the circumstance
Keyword: can, but not guaranteed. Haste always works, always provides a massive benefit with a party composition that has a dedicated melee damage dealer. Even for casters it's extremely useful as they can haste and throw more damage spells per round (I played BG3 on launch on tactician and have no idea what changes Larian have introduced in their newest updates). Stacking spell DC to a point where you beat enemy saves 95% of the time is non-trivial in 5e due to the "bounded accuracy" design philosophy, although BG3 has very good itemization for DC casters. Still, even if you can reach 95% success rate on your disabling spells, you still get extra roadblocks like legendary wards. Meanwhile: Haste just works. Always.
But if they can be better, then it's not true that "Niche concentration spells that could be useful in certain tactical scenarios become useless since they simply cannot compete with the top general purpose ones like Haste." It's not like you can only have one conc spell in your spell list
 

MjKorz

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+2 to ac and an extra attack and also more movement. Makes already good frontliners very good.
Yeah, it's no doubt useful, but doesn't seem like something you would always pick 100% of the time. There are many other concentration spells that can prove better, depending kn the circumstance
Keyword: can, but not guaranteed. Haste always works, always provides a massive benefit with a party composition that has a dedicated melee damage dealer. Even for casters it's extremely useful as they can haste and throw more damage spells per round (I played BG3 on launch on tactician and have no idea what changes Larian have introduced in their newest updates). Stacking spell DC to a point where you beat enemy saves 95% of the time is non-trivial in 5e due to the "bounded accuracy" design philosophy, although BG3 has very good itemization for DC casters. Still, even if you can reach 95% success rate on your disabling spells, you still get extra roadblocks like legendary wards. Meanwhile: Haste just works. Always.
But if they can be better, then it's not true that "Niche concentration spells that could be useful in certain tactical scenarios become useless since they simply cannot compete with the top general purpose ones like Haste." It's not like you can only have one conc spell in your spell list
That was in reference to the "many cases" mentioned in the previous sentence of the same post. Other concentration spells can be better in particular tactical scenarios, but there has to be a very strong reason to make them objectively superior or at least competitive and that is a problem when competing against a universally useful spell that provides amazing benefit.

For example, I refused to submit to Jaheira when encountering her for the first time in Last Light and fought her along with all of her supporters in the immediate vicinity of the bridge. In that case, I dropped Evard's Black Tentacles to prevent the huge group of enemies from overwhelming me and keep them trickling in manageable numbers instead. Haste wouldn't have helped as much due to a very high number of enemies that could be controlled:
cu35r8.jpg
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Idk, seems kind of boring on top of everything else. Guess I’m spoiled by the expectation of AoE Haste. I just focus on what my Arcane Caster is good at (controlling or Witch Bolting Wet stuff or whatever) and get extra attax from Bloodlust Elixir and the like.
 

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