Warhammer Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader - turn-based Warhammer 40k RPG from Owlcat Games

[ArchAngel]

supposedly hyper-advanced

The Eldar factions are absolute bottom tier in warhammer 40k, both in how interesting they are, and general effectiveness. Change my mind.

I was under the impression that the Aeldari are currently the most overpowered faction in 10th edition tabletop 40k, to the point where many competitive players considered them to be somewhat broken. They have been nerfed several times already but they still appear to have the highest win rate of all factions in competitive play.

That is only temporary. Soon human factions are going to get Navigator Cassia as hero unit.

 

[Harthwain]

I finished Kiava Gamma and I have to say it proves how uneven the game is. Fights range between "No problem" and "Can I even beat this?", and that's even after I explored as much of the map as possible to gain as much experience as possible. Although I do have an impression that enemies scale to your level...

Like some people said before, surviving first few turns is vital. After that it gets easier as you keep removing the threats. I also started to appreciate Desperate Measures more, which I rarely if ever used before. It is interesting that each has its own downsides, so you have to consider whether you are actually desperate enough to use them or not.

What puzzles me is how often enemies keep hitting despite certain character having agility or melee leveled up to the max (so much so that they literally can't take that particular stat on level up)... I guess that's the whole point of higher difficulties - so you have to stack extra bonuses on top of the inherent ones to really make it effective. I think I will drop the difficulty on my next playthrough, because sometimes the amount of scave-scumming and cheesing got a bit too high to my liking. The skill checks are very annoying in particular, because they are binary in nature and still quite difficult (and I am talking highly leveled up skills) so there is literally no point not to pass them. Even the mundane ones give you experience. If you sum up 10 skill checks that give you 10 XPs you get 100 XPs, which is a nice number. Scanning an empty planet gives you 50 XP, so just by doing that I leveled up a few times.

While most of the time the writing is OK and sometimes drops (Janus), on Kiava Gamma there were some really cool inter party banters. It is a shame these are VERY rare situations. I am going to beat Dragonus next and I am sitting at ~96 hours, which is A LOT of time to sink into a single game for me. I may not be enjoying the game as much as King Arthur: Knight's Quest (and I am very disappointed in how shallow it is in the RPG department), but it's still enjoyable enough, even with various issues that pop up here and there.

 

[std::namespace]

im getting tired of waiting for the next patch to play ch3...

 

[Dayyālu]

I finished Kiava Gamma and I have to say it proves how uneven the game is. Fights range between "No problem" and "Can I even beat this?", and that's even after I explored as much of the map as possible to gain as much experience as possible. Although I do have an impression that enemies scale to your level...

I don't think they do.

But the combat has become flat-out hilarious, I've finished Chapter 4. The last fight of the Chapter is with some troopers that manage to get on your bridge with a boarding torpedo. This is what happened.

FIRST TURN
PC Officers starts first
Argenta buffed with free movement goes into the midst of the enemy formation
Argenta buffed with free actions, bursts two enemies down
HIGH MOMENTUM
Heroic Action on Argenta, another burst takes down more enemies
Argenta uses her Momentum-raising skill
Back to PC Officer, he gets an extra turn for ??? reasons
More buffs I guess
Uses Inquisitorial Ring
HIGH MOMENTUM
Extra turn for Argenta, shoots more goons and stacks Versatility
End of standard turn for PC Officer
Cassia starts
Argenta Buffed with extra Actions
Shoots down more goons
Back to Cassia, that kills more with AoE abilities
HIGH MOMENTUM
Another free turn for Argenta, shoots down all the remaining goons
The goons never moved or acted, half of my party never moved or acted

End of Combat

Here, I'd complaint that this is exploits or something. But the fact that the system working as intended makes this optimal makes me realize whoever designed this has no idea of what an action economy is, or has probably never touched a tabletop game and simply furiously fapped to broken builds that he never got to use in the real world. Who designs this? This is bizarre. Mechanicus had problems with the action combos, but steps were taken to lessen their role: here it's like someone .... never played a tactical game, the turn mechanics are the basics of a good system and here everything is broken at best. And don't get me started on enemies that randomly interrupt the turn order just because: I actually started laughing loud when Uralon evoked a demon as the last action of his turn and the demon took an entire turn immediately. This is contrary to basic encounter design. Who the fuck designed this?

 

[Tyranicon]

The Eldar factions are absolute bottom tier in warhammer 40k, both in how interesting they are, and general effectiveness. Change my mind.

I was under the impression that the Aeldari are currently the most overpowered faction in 10th edition tabletop 40k, to the point where many competitive players considered them to be somewhat broken. They have been nerfed several times already but they still appear to have the highest win rate of all factions in competitive play.

Does this mean they finally got new models? I don't follow the tabletop much, I meant effective in-universe, which the space elves typically aren't after they got buttfucked by the resident hentai god.

Yeah, yeah, I know someone's going come here with muh harlequins and muh Ynnari, and how Yvaine is pussywhipping Guilliman or whatever.

On the other hand, I haven't paid attention to the lore in years either.

 

[Harthwain]

Here, I'd complaint that this is exploits or something. But the fact that the system working as intended

The extra turn for the Officer sounds like a bug. Other than that it sounds like a combination of you being able to kill a few enemies to generate a lot of momentum to get the loop going. Nerf that and it won't be possible anymore.

whoever designed this has no idea of what an action economy is

I wouldn't blame action economy as such. Putting some limits on how often you can use Heroic Action would keep it in check, but being able to attack more than once per turn should stay. Although I have to admit that even a single use of Soldier + Arch-Militant ults is devastatingly effective. Hell, even her regular abilities are super powerful.

here it's like someone .... never played a tactical game, the turn mechanics are the basics of a good system and here everything is broken at best.

My guess is that even if someone played the game it is possible to not play in a way that completely overpowers the opposition. For example, I have yet to be able to get high Momentum from killing just 2 enemies.

My trick is getting my snipers (Rogue Trader + Yrliet) in position and stripping armour off enemies until they drop dead. Jae's Eldar sniper rifle she gifted to me when I recruited her is particularly great, because I can fire it again if I crit, so I can do it twice a turn (it costs 2AP per shot). Sometimes three times a turn (if I manage to Claim the Bounty), without an Officer present. Abelard and Heinrix in the meantime keep everyone occupied, which is easier when they pump their parry/deflection/dodge stats up with their skills. I will certainly make use of the Space Marine when I get him. Another meatshield on the field will be more useful than Pasqal who can neither dodge or parry attacks.

 

[Saduj]

Back to PC Officer, he gets an extra turn for ??? reasons

Sounds like In Hero's Footsteps, which gives character an extra 3 AP turn the first time an ally uses a heroic act in combat. It works on my PC even when he's the one who used the heroic act.

 

[Kiste]

The Eldar factions are absolute bottom tier in warhammer 40k, both in how interesting they are, and general effectiveness. Change my mind.

I was under the impression that the Aeldari are currently the most overpowered faction in 10th edition tabletop 40k, to the point where many competitive players considered them to be somewhat broken. They have been nerfed several times already but they still appear to have the highest win rate of all factions in competitive play.

Does this mean they finally got new models? I don't follow the tabletop much, I meant effective in-universe, which the space elves typically aren't after they got buttfucked by the resident hentai god.

Yeah, yeah, I know someone's going come here with muh harlequins and muh Ynnari, and how Yvaine is pussywhipping Guilliman or whatever.

On the other hand, I haven't paid attention to the lore in years either.

Yeah, I was referring to current tabletop rules, not lore. They benefit from a bunch of extremely cost-effective units and a few game mechanic synergies that make certain units massively oppressive. I think I read somewhere that their win rate in competitive play was like 70% or something similarly ridiculous. A round of nerfs brought it down a bit but they're pretty much still on top. More nerfs are expected in the coming weeks. The Drukhari, on the other hand, seem to be the biggest bitches in the current state of the rules.

Another OP faction was the Genestealer Cults but they were nerfed so hard that they went from a 65% win rate right to the bottom of the pile at 40%. IIRC, GW's balancing target is a win rate in the 45-55% range for every faction. I think they've got a slightly better grip on things with 10th edition, which streamlined some aspects of the game (which is a good thing), but it's still a massively complex game and players are extremely good at uncovering unexpected synergies and overpowered army lists.

 

[ArchAngel]

Back to PC Officer, he gets an extra turn for ??? reasons

Sounds like In Hero's Footsteps, which gives character an extra 3 AP turn the first time an ally uses a heroic act in combat. It works on my PC even when he's the one who used the heroic act.

No, there is a bug where you get a full extra turn with a officer and it is not that ability. I described steps I used to get it few pages back in my post.

 

[ArchAngel]

I finished Kiava Gamma and I have to say it proves how uneven the game is. Fights range between "No problem" and "Can I even beat this?", and that's even after I explored as much of the map as possible to gain as much experience as possible. Although I do have an impression that enemies scale to your level...

I don't think they do.

But the combat has become flat-out hilarious, I've finished Chapter 4. The last fight of the Chapter is with some troopers that manage to get on your bridge with a boarding torpedo. This is what happened.

FIRST TURN
PC Officers starts first
Argenta buffed with free movement goes into the midst of the enemy formation
Argenta buffed with free actions, bursts two enemies down
HIGH MOMENTUM
Heroic Action on Argenta, another burst takes down more enemies
Argenta uses her Momentum-raising skill
Back to PC Officer, he gets an extra turn for ??? reasons
More buffs I guess
Uses Inquisitorial Ring
HIGH MOMENTUM
Extra turn for Argenta, shoots more goons and stacks Versatility
End of standard turn for PC Officer
Cassia starts
Argenta Buffed with extra Actions
Shoots down more goons
Back to Cassia, that kills more with AoE abilities
HIGH MOMENTUM
Another free turn for Argenta, shoots down all the remaining goons
The goons never moved or acted, half of my party never moved or acted

End of Combat

Here, I'd complaint that this is exploits or something. But the fact that the system working as intended makes this optimal makes me realize whoever designed this has no idea of what an action economy is, or has probably never touched a tabletop game and simply furiously fapped to broken builds that he never got to use in the real world. Who designs this? This is bizarre. Mechanicus had problems with the action combos, but steps were taken to lessen their role: here it's like someone .... never played a tactical game, the turn mechanics are the basics of a good system and here everything is broken at best. And don't get me started on enemies that randomly interrupt the turn order just because: I actually started laughing loud when Uralon evoked a demon as the last action of his turn and the demon took an entire turn immediately. This is contrary to basic encounter design. Who the fuck designed this?

There are a few bugs here (extra turn, abilities saying in UI they got 1 round cooldown but not really) but unfortunatelly some things are by design: too high damage for many wespons, officers extra turns and heroics able to be used on same character in same round, momentum gain is too high in midgame and onwards..

 

[AwesomeButton]

is kangmaker fixed already? is it good time to play it?

There really isn't any outstanding bugs anymore (as Owlcat has stopped patching it), if you want to have fun you can install the CotW mod for more buildfag autism

I think the better question is "Up to which chapter is the game playable".

 

[Parsimonious cook]

The first two chapters dont have serious problems, I actually dont remember anything critical from the third one either. Most problems are in fourth and fifth chapters, though personally I finished the game and the only time I had to use Toybox to unfuck something was during Heinrix´s personal quest in chapter four (which isnt necessary to progress the story).

 

[Incendax]

There are so many unbalanced abilities in the game Officer Spam is just a drop in the bucket. I'm doing Unfair/No Officers, and even just Frontline Stratagem + Combat Locus + Inquisitor Seal is +120% armor for the whole party before enemies can even go.

 

[Incendax]

Imperium: I wasn't even there, I have never heard of your stupid world!
Eldar: Oh so you weren't there but your relative was? Well SCREW YOU ANYANYWAY

The Imperium also loves them some generational blame. They wipe out entire families and even whole legions of Space Marines for Sins of the Father shit. Even economic debt is passed down.

 

[Dayyālu]

There are so many unbalanced abilities in the game Officer Spam is just a drop in the bucket. I'm doing Unfair/No Officers, and even just Frontline Stratagem + Combat Locus + Inquisitor Seal is +120% armor for the whole party before enemies can even go.

I agree, it's trivially easy to break the game (and it isn't helped by the opaque nature of the systems). But such a blatant idiocy on one of the basic tenets of turn-based play, that the turn order is extremely important and exceptions are to be carefully controlled because they can shatter the game is a sign that the guy in charge of design has essentially no clue. If it's true that they developed four version of this system and this is the best they could come up with I weep for future Owlcat games.

A lot of the combat design in Rogue Trader is flat-out amateurish: it's obvious that they didn't test the game for bugs, but they did not test the combat even. A lot of encounters are half-assed at best. The examples are almost too many, for example the Eldar Rangers on the jungle planet that have outrageous bonuses just because the designer could not be arsed to make an interesting map or good placement, simply drop 3-4 of them, inflate stats and you're gold. It's not that they are difficult, it's that they make obvious the guy behind the combat encounters didn't give a shit/didn't have a clue.

It is less noticeable in the earlier chapters because the system still somewhat maintains the partial inheritance of its tabletop roots and the amount of trash is high so you don't notice....

But even the Space Combat is guilty of this: Owlcat, you truly think I didn't notice that the Frigates you fight at the end of Chapter 4 essentially move like fighters and their firing arcs make no sense? What's the point of designing rules if you aren't going to respect them because you can't design for shit?

 

[ArchAngel]

There are so many unbalanced abilities in the game Officer Spam is just a drop in the bucket. I'm doing Unfair/No Officers, and even just Frontline Stratagem + Combat Locus + Inquisitor Seal is +120% armor for the whole party before enemies can even go.

I agree, it's trivially easy to break the game (and it isn't helped by the opaque nature of the systems). But such a blatant idiocy on one of the basic tenets of turn-based play, that the turn order is extremely important and exceptions are to be carefully controlled because they can shatter the game is a sign that the guy in charge of design has essentially no clue. If it's true that they developed four version of this system and this is the best they could come up with I weep for future Owlcat games.

A lot of the combat design in Rogue Trader is flat-out amateurish: it's obvious that they didn't test the game for bugs, but they did not test the combat even. A lot of encounters are half-assed at best. The examples are almost too many, for example the Eldar Rangers on the jungle planet that have outrageous bonuses just because the designer could not be arsed to make an interesting map or good placement, simply drop 3-4 of them, inflate stats and you're gold. It's not that they are difficult, it's that they make obvious the guy behind the combat encounters didn't give a shit/didn't have a clue.

It is less noticeable in the earlier chapters because the system still somewhat maintains the partial inheritance of its tabletop roots and the amount of trash is high so you don't notice....

But even the Space Combat is guilty of this: Owlcat, you truly think I didn't notice that the Frigates you fight at the end of Chapter 4 essentially move like fighters and their firing arcs make no sense? What's the point of designing rules if you aren't going to respect them because you can't design for shit?

Eldar Rangers on Janus are ok. They are hard to hit but that is solved by one of the multiple Operators you got access to or by going into melee where your perception + half agility is used to check vs their dodge

 

[ArchAngel]

There are so many unbalanced abilities in the game Officer Spam is just a drop in the bucket. I'm doing Unfair/No Officers, and even just Frontline Stratagem + Combat Locus + Inquisitor Seal is +120% armor for the whole party before enemies can even go.

Most of the encounter design seems to be made around players always having one Officer/GS in party that will give a turn either to parties best buffer or best damage dealer. I am not sure they will be willing or able to unfuck this system now after release as it would require playtesting all encounters again and rebalancing them.. maybe higher difficulty should give more armor/deflection pen instead of just more damage and all positive values from buffs should have some limit

 

[ChildInTime]

Eldar Rangers on Janus are ok. They are hard to hit but that is solved by one of the multiple Operators you got access to or by going into melee where your perception + half agility is used to check vs their dodge

He's talking about the ones on quetza temer or however that planet in act 4 is called, those rangers are 'one shot - one kill' if you don't fuck them over with your own OP bullshit.

 

[Donald Gordon Lord]

is kangmaker fixed already? is it good time to play it?

There really isn't any outstanding bugs anymore (as Owlcat has stopped patching it), if you want to have fun you can install the CotW mod for more buildfag autism

I think the better question is "Up to which chapter is the game playable".

All triggers broke at the start of Ch 4 for me. Lots of zipping around on my invisible hoverchair and nothing else.

 

[Yosharian]

the designer could not be arsed to make an interesting map or good placement, simply drop 3-4 of them, inflate stats and you're gold.

It's Owlcat, their last 2 games should have told you to expect this

 

[Rhobar121]

the designer could not be arsed to make an interesting map or good placement, simply drop 3-4 of them, inflate stats and you're gold.

It's Owlcat, their last 2 games should have told you to expect this

Some people might have assumed that if it was their own system and a full turn base, the design would be better.

 

[REhorror]

the designer could not be arsed to make an interesting map or good placement, simply drop 3-4 of them, inflate stats and you're gold.

It's Owlcat, their last 2 games should have told you to expect this

Some people might have assumed that if it was their own system and a full turn base, the design would be better.

They inflated PF enemies's own stats to the point where a humie bandit has 21 AC.

Owlcat is russian. They love da pain.

 

[Rhobar121]

the designer could not be arsed to make an interesting map or good placement, simply drop 3-4 of them, inflate stats and you're gold.

It's Owlcat, their last 2 games should have told you to expect this

Some people might have assumed that if it was their own system and a full turn base, the design would be better.

They inflated PF enemies's own stats to the point where a humie bandit has 21 AC.

Owlcat is russian. They love da pain.

I would like to see Owlcat make a game in 5e just to see how much bounded accuracy can be broken.

 

[ArchAngel]

the designer could not be arsed to make an interesting map or good placement, simply drop 3-4 of them, inflate stats and you're gold.

It's Owlcat, their last 2 games should have told you to expect this

Some people might have assumed that if it was their own system and a full turn base, the design would be better.

They inflated PF enemies's own stats to the point where a humie bandit has 21 AC.

Owlcat is russian. They love da pain.

That is OK because in PF you do not murder everyone on turn 1.. Also enemies do not murder half your team on turn 1 if you give them a turn..

 

[jf8350143]

the designer could not be arsed to make an interesting map or good placement, simply drop 3-4 of them, inflate stats and you're gold.

It's Owlcat, their last 2 games should have told you to expect this

Some people might have assumed that if it was their own system and a full turn base, the design would be better.

They inflated PF enemies's own stats to the point where a humie bandit has 21 AC.

Owlcat is russian. They love da pain.

That is OK because in PF you do not murder everyone on turn 1.. Also enemies do not murder half your team on turn 1 if you give them a turn..

In pathfinder if you don't pre-buff your party, the enemies will murder everyone on turn one.

The only difference is in Rogue trader there is no pre-buff.