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Development Info Wasteland 2 Kickstarter Update #20: Attributes and Skills

tuluse

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Brute force to me sounds like it will be used for bashing doors in and doing bull rushes, which seem like they can be practiced. I'd have to see a more detailed description before I made any judgements since expertise is so oddly named.

Even if it isn't and is literally a raw strength ability, I don't see how it's awful design to have it as a skill. It might be odd, and not simulationist, but that doesn't make it strictly bad.
 

skuphundaku

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Did something say they would have been better off with picking a pre-designed, tested system?

I thought so :smug:
Yeah, GURPS would be awesome. However, there are two problems with this proposition:
1) There is no post-apocalyptic setting in 4th edition GURPS and I doubt SJG would go for a new title using 3rd edition rules...
2) ...and, this is the crux of the matter, who would pay for the license? I don't think Fargo/inXile has the money to throw on licensing GURPS, even if that, from a ruleset point of view, would have been awesome.

They could have gone for an open system, such as Fudge or FATE, but I don't think they ever seriously considered that because most donors expected something Fallout-like (SPECIAL-like), so, in a way, they were forced to create their own SPECIAL derivative to meet those expectations.
 

Infinitron

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Did something say they would have been better off with picking a pre-designed, tested system?

I thought so :smug:

MSPE.jpg
 

Brother None

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Licensing a system like GURPS also involved giving up part of creative control to that company and giving them the ability to veto things they're not comfortable with. That's where things broke up for Fallout (that and Interplay didn't like the cost-benefit picture involved).
 

skuphundaku

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Licensing a system like GURPS also involved giving up part of creative control to that company and giving them the ability to veto things they're not comfortable with. That's where things broke up for Fallout (that and Interplay didn't like the cost-benefit picture involved).
I thought of this after posting the last message, and, yes, you're right about this. I bet that Fargo wouldn't even have considered giving up creative control to any outside party. What? Wrest creative control from publishers and then give it to the ruleset licenser? If I were Fargo, my only response to that would have been "Fuck that!".
 

Murk

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It is also stupid to make attributes into passive effects and then adding skills that could be perfectly handled by attribute checks. People are being paid to design this.
Since skills are derived from attributes what difference does it make?

Well, think about it, if there's no difference then why are they taking the extra step? Why do something for absolutely no reason other than to... pad the skill list?

I'm in favor of having both attribute and skill checks, perhaps even in tandem. I suppose it could be based on the idea that a single attribute determines the bonus/derivation for multiple skills, sure, but if a skill is -- conceptually -- the same as an attribute then something went awry.

Now, given the naming scheme in the game -- perhaps Brute Force doesn't just mean "bash check".
 

Brother None

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I thought of this after posting the last message, and, yes, you're right about this. I bet that Fargo wouldn't even have considered giving up creative control to any outside party. What? Wrest creative control from publishers and then give it to the ruleset licenser? If I were Fargo, my only response to that would have been "Fuck that!".

It's possible, but it'd have to be the exact right circumstances, which means the licenser would have to be understanding and preferably consist of people Fargo knows he can work with, etc. etc. Certainly not something like AD&D. GURPS? I don't really know the story there, but I doubt it was ever much of an option.
 

Grunker

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Licensing a system like GURPS also involved giving up part of creative control to that company and giving them the ability to veto things they're not comfortable with. That's where things broke up for Fallout (that and Interplay didn't like the cost-benefit picture involved).

No need to license, necessarily. Plenty of open systems. Though GURPS definetely would not be bad for this type of game. Going to Sean Punch with a "we would like this, these are our terms" and on a no just pick an open system you can control yourself.

Didn't mean to start this discussion all over again though, I've more than said my piece on it.

Did something say they would have been better off with picking a pre-designed, tested system?

I thought so :smug:
Yeah, GURPS would be awesome. However, there are two problems with this proposition:
1) There is no post-apocalyptic setting in 4th edition GURPS and I doubt SJG would go for a new title using 3rd edition rules...

Nigga you high? GURPS don't need no campaign setting dawg.


2) ...and, this is the crux of the matter, who would pay for the license? I don't think Fargo/inXile has the money to throw on licensing GURPS, even if that, from a ruleset point of view, would have been awesome.

See above point to BN.


They could have gone for an open system, such as Fudge or FATE, but I don't think they ever seriously considered that because most donors expected something Fallout-like (SPECIAL-like), so, in a way, they were forced to create their own SPECIAL derivative to meet those expectations.

Oh I highly agree with you here. But I'm not here to be reasonable. I'm here to argue what would have made the best game.
 

Roguey

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I was actually referring strictly to the fighting skills, which I don't see how they could be superfluous.
Brawling, blunt and bladed weapons - no reason at all to use these in a game with guns unless they can be the equal of guns; I doubt this is one of their goals.
Handguns, SMGs, and shotguns: Early game weapons. Don't spend too many points here, they'll be worthless soon.
Rifles and sniper rifles: mid game weapons.
Energy and AT weapons: Every person in your team should be using these by endgame or you're gimping yourself.

As a character system, it's very homogenous and Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Hopefully there'll be some good content to offset it so we don't wind up with Fallout Tictacs: The Spiritual Successor.

And Grunker you should pay more attention to Infinitron. Stackpole is one of your tabletop hacks.
 

LeStryfe79

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GURPs is too amorphous and flat a system to be used for CRPGs. It would only work in a very specific genre while relying on a heavy dose of modifications. Every homebrew I've ever played was better at its respective genre than GURPs, and they took less effort to work as well. One system to rule them all just doesn't exist. I'm pretty damn sure any GURPS fanboy that would argue about this spent more time on their game with fewer results, but doesn't want to see the obvious forest through the trees. Of course it's possible to make a GURPs setting work, I'm just not sure why anyone would want to go to that much trouble, when a specifically tailored system is probably better and more easily implemented.
 

Grunker

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Why would they include the Basic Set in its entirety? o_O

All you'd need is four main stats, and nice group of disads and ads, as well as skills, and then the combat system (weapons included). From there you're good to go. How the fuck is that complicated, "a heavy dose of modifications" or anything else?

EDIT: Oh, you're trolling me again. I'm such a fucking boob.
 

GarfunkeL

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It's entirely possible to fully utilize all of the weapon/fighting skills throughout the game. AT Weapons, while extremely powerful, should also be very rare. Same with energy weapons. If ammunition is scarce, utilizing melee fighters is a good tactic in a a party-based game and that's without bringing in energy-based melee weapons. If locational damage, aimed shots and criticals are in, sniper rifles remain powerful in any system.

While there's room for nit-picking, their choices look pretty good to me.
 

FeelTheRads

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AT Weapons, while extremely powerful, should also be very rare.

But then the skill doesn't get the exact same use as all the others so it's useless hurr durr
 

Brother None

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Brawling, blunt and bladed weapons - no reason at all to use these in a game with guns unless they can be the equal of guns; I doubt this is one of their goals.

Heh. I take it perhaps you didn't play Wasteland?
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
And I agree, but the point is the way they are doing it isn't very interesting.

It is also stupid to make attributes into passive effects and then adding skills that could be perfectly handled by attribute checks. People are being paid to design this.
Since skills are derived from attributes what difference does it make?
It's awful design? The only reason a skill like Brute Force even exists is because they decided attributes are going to be for derived stats only for some reason. How's that even a skill. What practice or training does it require?

bodybuilder-dysfunctional.jpg


In other words, steroid abuse. :troll:
 

Temaperacl

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I was actually referring strictly to the fighting skills, which I don't see how they could be superfluous.
Brawling, blunt and bladed weapons - no reason at all to use these in a game with guns unless they can be the equal of guns; I doubt this is one of their goals.
They don't have to be the equal of games - they just have to be sufficient for the whole game. They (Knife Fighting and Brawling) were perfectly usable for the whole game in the original.

Looking at the list, I think it could be broken into the following rough groups:
===Maintained Names===
Doctor
Toaster Repair
Cyborg Tech
Brawling
AT Weapons
SMG
Rifle
Energy Weapon
Silent Move
Pick Lock
Safecrack
Alarm Disarm
Demolitions

===Simple(?) Renames / Expansions===
Handgun <= Clip Pistol
Examine <= Perception
Field Medic <= Medic

===Tentative Renames / Expansions===
(In other words, guesses.)
Bladed Weapons <= Knife Fight
Blunt Weapons <= Pugilism (Unless there is no unarmed combat or it is folded into brawling)
Outdoorsman <= Climb, Swim

===New===
Brute Force <= From Strength Attribute
Shotgun
Sniper Rifle
Weaponsmith
Bullet Swagging
Salvaging
Animal Whisperer
Coin Crafting
Intimidate
Spot Lie
Backer Skill
Leadership
Bartering
Evasion

===Lost===
Knife Throw
Assault Rifle
Combat Shooting
Confidence
Gamble
Sleight of Hand
Forgery
Acrobat
Bureaucracy
Bomb Disarm
Cryptology
Metallurgy
Helicopter Pilot
Electronics
Clone Tech
 
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Just waiting to hear that intelligence governs how many skill points you earn or something similar, and that skillchecks are binary.
 

Roguey

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Brawling, blunt and bladed weapons - no reason at all to use these in a game with guns unless they can be the equal of guns; I doubt this is one of their goals.

Heh. I take it perhaps you didn't play Wasteland?
This isn't a blobber like Wasteland. The rules change when you add movement within combat. And pugilism and knives are worthless, hope you enjoy proton axes because that's your only final option. Though that's not limited to melee, all weapons and armor had a linear progression, like a JRPG.
 

Temaperacl

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Brawling, blunt and bladed weapons - no reason at all to use these in a game with guns unless they can be the equal of guns; I doubt this is one of their goals.



Heh. I take it perhaps you didn't play Wasteland?

This isn't a blobber like Wasteland. The rules change when you add movement within combat.
Given that for melee options, you still had to close the distance between the party (or individual combatant) and the enemy in the original WL, what is the significant difference that renders melee weapons usable in the first, but pointless in WL2?
And pugilism and knives are worthless, hope you enjoy proton axes because that's your only final option.
Proton Axe was the best melee weapon at the end game - There is no argument there. But that didn't make the other options worthless unless you are defining worthless as "there is something that is better" instead of something more sensible like "is not reasonably usable". Knife Throwing was worthless - not necessarily because of the damage it would deal, but because of the mechanism used for it (Ammo taking up a single inventory slot each meant a very limited set could be carried, and (IIRC) the requirement to reload after each throw meant you only got one throw off every 2 rounds.)

I admit that it has been a while since I played through the end with a pugilist and a knife-fighter, so I don't recall if Pugilism (7) held up too inside Cochise itself, but it was perfectly fine for the rest of the game.

Knife fighting had no problem for the entire game, including Cochise - you would want to drop the knife and use other brawling weapons at some points during the game because you would want a higher brawling for the extra melee attacks, but outside of leveling brawling, there was no need to use any weapons other than knifes.

In my run that had a pugilist (7 Pugilism, 7 Brawling) and a Knife Fighter (7 Knife fight, 8 Brawling), those two melee characters were always dealing the most damage in combat unless the Energy Weapon carriers went full auto. I don't recall if the pugilist was actually using fists the whole time or if I switched him to the Proton Axe, but I know the knife fighter was using the Knife the whole time. They also leveled up the fastest because of the whole double XP thing.

Though that's not limited to melee, all weapons and armor had a linear progression, like a JRPG.
There were also a limited number of each weapon - If memory serves, 2 Proton Axes, 1 Ion Beamers, and 1 Meson Cannon if you found them all - likely only 1 Proton Axe without already knowing where the second one was. Top level energy weapons also were not a strict linear improvement - it was a tradeoff between single shot damage (Meson Cannon) and overall damage per power-pack (Ion Beamer, Laser Rifle(?)).
 

Grunker

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Roguey is a believer in the magical concept of True Balance, and deeply wishes for RPG systems to be in a constant flux of balancing like MOBA and Starcraft :troll:
 

Zeronet

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I think an important question is, are there more skills than this, but secret to be discovered in game? I have a feeling they don't want to spoil some of the skills by totting them out in a update.
 

Brother None

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I think an important question is, are there more skills than this, but secret to be discovered in game? I have a feeling they don't want to spoil some of the skills by totting them out in a update.

I've actually been wondering the same (I don't know myself). Good question to ask on the Ask a Dev week.
 

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