Game News Wasteland 2 Kickstarter Update #43: New UI, Grid Inventory!

[tuluse]

The only people I know who tried to do it on a modern CRPG was InXile and they really do suck.

AoD uses a list based inventory

 

[Excidium]

The only people I know who tried to do it on a modern CRPG was InXile and they really do suck.

AoD uses a list based inventory

I'd be hard pressed to call it that, it's more like icon inventory with only one column.

 

[Roguey]

SkyUI actually looks like a great list inventory and better than any concept inXile's cooked up.

 

[Jasede]

I'm half serious though. It really isn't shit because it's badly made (though that's part of it-) -- it's shit because it lacks direction. I dunno, fair point though.

Edit: ok you got me; it's shit /excidium

 

[Nik_man]

The UI seems much better than their first N tries, particularly in terms of functionality, but aesthetically it still looks very amateur. I don't know what about it it is exactly (I'm not a designer), but e.g. M&M X, Divinity: OS or even the Eternity alpha mockup look far more professional and internally consistent.

I agree with that.
Probably they have to pay more for a real good interface because this looks amateurish and cheap.
And this cheapens the hole gaming expiriense totaly.
It's not difficult to do it . We will wait, see and judge.

 

[DefJam101]

The art direction is lacking.

Grid inventories ~feel better~ unless you're playing a game with shit tons of items clogging up your backpack. then a list is better due to convenience

 

[Durante]

You admitted there's no good list inventory. So I guess everybody sucks at doing them?

SkyUI is pretty great. Basically, people just need to admit to themselves that the RPG inventory is like a database or a filesystem, and then apply decades of existing UI knowledge to it.

 

[Infinitron]

You admitted there's no good list inventory. So I guess everybody sucks at doing them?

SkyUI is pretty great. Basically, people just need to admit to themselves that the RPG inventory is like a database or a filesystem, and then apply decades of existing UI knowledge to it.

But it isn't. The difference between an RPG inventory and a database, is that in an RPG inventory, in most cases, the user is very well aware of what he has. Pure random access is not a priority. Ease of recognizing and manipulating what you already know you have has precedence over searching and finding what you don't know you have, and for that, a visual icon-based design is superior.

An RPG inventory is a knapsack, not a database.

 

[Excidium]

Ease of recognizing and manipulating what you already know you have has precedence over searching and finding what you don't know you have, and for that, a visual icon-based design is superior.

Bullshit.

 

[Infinitron]

Ease of recognizing and manipulating what you already know you have has precedence over searching and finding what you don't know you have, and for that, a visual icon-based design is superior.

Bullshit.

Why should I have to scan through text to find a tangible physical object I already know I have? When you take something out of your desk drawer, would rather read a list of what's inside before you're allowed to take it, or just, you know, reach inside and grab it?

 

[Excidium]

What a dumb analogy. In the context of an inventory you can manipulate the text or icon the same way. The name is just a much clearer representation of the item than some picture of it.

 

[Infinitron]

What a dumb analogy. In the context of an inventory you can manipulate the text or icon the same way. The name is just a much clearer representation of the item than some picture of it.

You don't need a "clearer" representation. Again, you already know what you have, so it's more important that the representation be quick to recognize than it be "clear" and accurate.

Let's see you have a great magical sword in your inventory. You know have it, you know how it looks like (let's say it has a blue magical aura and a red pommel), and you wanna grab it.

Grid inventory: Quickly recognize all visually sword-shaped objects, find the one with the correctly colored aura and pommel, grab it, and you're done. If you're smart, you've placed all magical weapons in one quadrant of your grid, making the process even quicker.

List inventory: Start scanning through all items that begin with the letter 'S'. If you're lucky, you might have a filter so you can look just at weapons. A tedious, error-prone, one-by-one process that doesn't utilize the human mind's visual processing capabilities.

 

[Excidium]

More like

Grid Inventory: Open inventory, start mouse-overing all magic sword icons one by one trying to find the one you want

List Inventory: Open inventory, see Magical Sword of Poison +1,

What a dumb analogy. In the context of an inventory you can manipulate the text or icon the same way. The name is just a much clearer representation of the item than some picture of it.

You don't need a "clearer" representation. Again, you already know what you have, so it's more important that the representation be quick to recognize than it be "clear" and accurate.

That so? Why not use drawings for stats too then?

A tedious, error-prone, one-by-one process that doesn't utilize the human mind's visual processing capabilities.

Reminds me of my present experiences with TOEE and MMX iconfests.

 

[Infinitron]

Grid Inventory: Open inventory, start mouse-overing all magic swords one by one trying to find the one you want

No, because you know what you have and you know what it looks like. How many times do I have to repeat it?

It's said that high IQ individuals of the traditionally "nerdy" persuasion have strong visuospatial IQ; perhaps it's no surprise that the mass marketization of our genre has coincided with the rise of list-based inventories that cater to an audience whose intelligence is of a more verbal nature (if that).

 

[Excidium]

No, because you know what you have and you know what it looks like. How many times do I have to repeat it?

Do I? I might have an idea of all the shit I own, but I don't know which is which and the specifics of them until I mouse-over and memorize the little icon (and in worst examples like TOEE, that doesn't even matter), atthat point the visual representation becomes irrelevant and it could be pictures of cats regardless of the item, but it's that proccess which makes icon inventories a pain in the fucking ass. Shopping at the beginning of TOEE killed my joy of actually replaying the game and I just quit there.

It's said that high IQ individuals of the traditionally "nerdy" persuasion have strong visuospatial IQ; perhaps it's no surprise that the mass marketization of our genre has coincided with the rise of list-based inventories that cater to an audience whose intelligence is of a more verbal nature (if that).

This is the biggest bullshit I've read in a long while. Stop trying so hard. It might occur to you that there's a rise of list-based inventories because most games are made to be played with a gamepad and lists are easier to use with that limited form of input than a grid.

 

[Liston]

Grid inventory: Quickly recognize all visually sword-shaped objects, find the one with the correctly colored aura and pommel, grab it, and you're done. If you're smart, you've placed all magical weapons in one quadrant of your grid, making the process even quicker.

List inventory: Start scanning through all items that begin with the letter 'S'. If you're lucky, you might have a filter so you can look just at weapons. A tedious, error-prone, one-by-one process that doesn't utilize the human mind's visual processing capabilities.

This is just not true. You are correct that sorted sets are much easier to search through but you are completely dishonest about sorting capabilities of list inventories. You can automatically search by a number of attributes while in grid inventories sorting inventories by hand becomes harder the more items you have. In practice you end up with a bunch of your own unsorted categories and a bunch of similar looking icons. List inventories also conveniently display relevant attributes so you can quite easily use binary search which gives you O(log n) complexity for any arbitrary set. For a small number of items it doesn't have much difference but the more items you have the more efficient lists become.

No, because you know what you have and you know what it looks like. How many times do I have to repeat it?

It's said that high IQ individuals of the traditionally "nerdy" persuasion have strong visuospatial IQ; perhaps it's no surprise that the mass marketization of our genre has coincided with the rise of list-based inventories that cater to an audience whose intelligence is of a more verbal nature (if that).

 

[Infinitron]

This is just not true. You are correct that sorted sets are much easier to search through but you are completely dishonest about sorting capabilities of list inventories. You can automatically search by a number of attributes while in grid inventories sorting inventories by hand becomes harder the more items you have. In practice you end up with a bunch of your own unsorted categories and a bunch of similar looking icons. List inventories also conveniently display relevant attributes so you can quite easily use binary search which gives you O(log n) complexity for any arbitrary set. For a small number of items it doesn't have much difference but the more items you have the more efficient lists become.

I don't want to search by attribute. I picked up a physical item in a virtual world that had a detailed graphical representation. I recognized it there, I saw how it looked like, and I don't need it turning into a piece of text and data in my inventory.

And don't throw O notations at me. I'm a human being with a human brain, not a computer. The human brain can do things efficiently that algorithms can't.

 

[Liston]

I don't want to search by attribute. I picked up a physical item in a virtual world that had a detailed graphical representation. I recognized it there, I saw how it looked like, and I don't need it turning into a piece of text and data in my inventory.

We agree there, I also like look and feel of grid inventories and prefer them as long as the item count is small.

And don't throw O notations at me. I'm a human being with a human brain, not a computer. The human brain can do things efficiently that algorithms can't.

Don't throw blanket statements at me, your brain can't make that popups show any faster than 200ms per item.

 

[Dr Schultz]

What a dumb analogy. In the context of an inventory you can manipulate the text or icon the same way. The name is just a much clearer representation of the item than some picture of it.

Bullshit. Grid based inventories are superior simply because they can represent way more items in a single screen than a list based inventory can do.

Basically they prevent the fucking scrolling; therefore they are faster; therefore they are better. Period.

 

[Excidium]

What a dumb analogy. In the context of an inventory you can manipulate the text or icon the same way. The name is just a much clearer representation of the item than some picture of it.

Bullshit. Grid based inventories are superior simply because they can represent way more items in a single screen than a list based inventory can do.

Basically they prevent the fucking scrolling; therefore they are faster; therefore they are better. Period.

You're wrong.

 

[hiver]

When there is no space limit - there is no Tetris.

Negates the entire point of going with a limitless grid.

I guess "2 squares" weapons occupy also two weapon slots (instead of one) once equipped. Just a visual reference.

What negates the "entire point" of going with a limitless grid?
That there are weapons that take two slots of the grid?

how does that negate anything?

- and no, those weapons are single slots when equipped. -

I always though that the grid inventory was preferred by many exactly because it forced player to play tetris and micromanage his junk.

God no, that was the worst part of it. It was done to create another type of limit that isnt dependent on weight of the items... which is nonsense.

Grid inventory is preferred because it provides much more info on every item - easily. Utility is actually better then with any list - and the item icons enhance the setting, lore, art style and the feeling that you are actually having and handling items and equipment.
Not just a spread shit list of them.

 

[Lancehead]

SkyUI actually looks like a great list inventory and better than any concept inXile's cooked up.

Not only does it work well, it's also got numerous nifty functional and aesthetic features. Not surprisingly, the UI is designed by a bunch of modders in their free time.

 

[Korron]

The grid system looks a lot better, but why the fuck did they decide to lite-brite the sorting icons? Blegh.

 

[Durante]

But it isn't. The difference between an RPG inventory and a database, is that in an RPG inventory, in most cases, the user is very well aware of what he has. Pure random access is not a priority. Ease of recognizing and manipulating what you already know you have has precedence over searching and finding what you don't know you have, and for that, a visual icon-based design is superior.

An RPG inventory is a knapsack, not a database.

I can see some merit to your argument, but it greatly depends on the type of game. If you have very limited inventory space then you can keep visual track of where everything is in a grid inventory -- for example, I have little issue in M&M X, particularly because of the color coding of item backgrounds which makes it relatively easy to find the important things in a sea of drops. Nonetheless, I often find myself linearly scanning (by mouse hovering) magic items one by one in order to find the one I just found/identified.

In a fully functional list UI like SkyUI, I could filter by category, sort by date found, or -- usually fastest of all, just like with launching programs -- search by substring matching. And the advantages of this system over visual parsing become more and more apparent with a larger number of items.

It's really a sad state of affairs that I can't point to any list inventory system designed by "professionals" that is even half as good as SkyUI.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Infinitron.. moar like Inventotron, amirite?