Wasteland Wasteland 2 Pre-Release Discussion Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Captain Shrek]

The combat looked derp although not as atrocious as XCom. Mostly due to silly level design from which Fallout Tactics suffered. Quite a linear map with pre-placed cover (except this time its stupid XCom derp where you can't even crouch without cover, which is also facing enemies for some reason) leading to the quest location. Enemy view cones are extremely narrow.

At least stat checks are in instead of Codex's favorite minigames and the dialogues seem ok without the annoying tons of pretentious writing like in the so called "RPGs" of today.

Overall it's nothing impressive and if the level design and combat won't be made more freeform and complex it will be just another mediocre project without any replay (or even play for that matter) value. It doesn't look much better than "The Fall" tbh.

tell you what Skyway. This is incredibly good Feedback. Codex should really push this!

 

[DragoFireheart]

Quite a linear map with pre-placed cover (except this time its stupid XCom derp where you can't even crouch without cover, which is also facing enemies for some reason) leading to the quest location.

I at least half agree with your other points... but this one confuses me. What about that cover was pre-placed?

 

[Infinitron]

It's an introductory/tutorial area, I think its linearity can be forgiven.

 

[OSK]

He wants the cover to dynamically pop-up in front of you. It's like popamole, but in reverse.

 

[DragoFireheart]

He wants the cover to dynamically pop-up in front of you. It's like popamole, but in reverse.

Dynamic cover: catering to your non-linearity.

It's not just majestic, but it's DYNAMIC!

 

[Captain Shrek]

Quite a linear map with pre-placed cover (except this time its stupid XCom derp where you can't even crouch without cover, which is also facing enemies for some reason) leading to the quest location.

I at least half agree with your other points... but this one confuses me. What about that cover was pre-placed?

The flanking case.

 

[DragoFireheart]

The flanking case.

So the boxes should not have been where they were? Is that what you and MetalCraze are saying?

 

[Captain Shrek]

The flanking case.

So the boxes should not have been where they were? Is that what you and MetalCraze are saying?

it should not be so obvious a layout. You should (for example) lure enemies into traps. Such obvious placement makes the game very repetitive. Think about commandos 1.

EDIT: Also, Prone/Kneel should be optionally available like in JA2 instead of being context dependent.

 

[hoverdog]

The flanking case.

So the boxes should not have been where they were? Is that what you and MetalCraze are saying?

it should not be so obvious a layout. You should (for example) lure enemies into traps. Such obvious placement makes the game very repetitive. Think about commandos 1.

Remember it's only a linear tutorial level.

EDIT: Also, Prone/Kneel should be optionally available like in JA2 instead of being context dependent.

this, however, is definitely needed.

 

[Infinitron]

Let's see what's going on the W2 forums:

http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=3416&start=60#p62665

Alright, so I'm watching the video now, and spotted one thing that's irked me in a lot of turn-based games. If I have a gun, and I'm exactly 1 square/hex away from an enemy, I don't care what my relevant skills levels are, chance to hit should be 95% or greater.

If there's a giant fly 3 feet in front of you, I don't care if you've never touched a gun before, if the gun goes bang you will hit that fly.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Remember it's only a linear tutorial level.

Best be sure than sorry, right?

 

[MetalCraze]

Let me clarify on why popamole cover systems from Gears of War need to die in tactical-level combat - in a very simple way:

So you put your soldier behind some rock or some metallic object? Tough luck - you are still just as vulnerable as you were before. That's because the designer only marked specific objects as providing cover. Like some wooden crate - and it's always placed in such way that it will face the enemy. So you will get shot through a thick rock but a wooden crate will stop bullets no problem. And why my soldier can only crouch in specific positions but never when I want him to?

Not only it's stupid from a position of the common sense - this also limits your options greatly. You will always select the same object in the same area as cover - because the designer forces you to. If you don't - you will get shot.

Why is JA2 great and Fallout Tactics isn't? Oh but exactly because of this lazy limiting design.
And I don't want a JA2 clone (although it would've been great) - the point is that in JA2 it's your choice, not designer's choice.



P.S. Oh and please - leave that "it's just a tutorial area!!111" crap for ESF.

 

[Roguey]

Obsidian might be able to learn a thing or two about project management from it, though.

And how to code a stable game.

They already did that with Dungeon Siege III.

 

[Infinitron]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/wasteland-2/posts/401940

Allright, looking good. There are a few things that bother me though:
- Keyword based replies bother me A LOT. I don't want the NPC guys to be the only ones with clever replies. The dialog, which is exceptionaly written is alpha and omega of every great RPG, at least for me. This way, it just seems broken.
- Loading of text in the UI box line by line. It's a nice effect, but as the game is so heavily text based, it will just slow down the reading of the text heavily. I mean, it's almost impossible to read the text until it entirely loads as it stands. If you have to use some effect, a simple fast fade would look better. Or no effect at all.
- Custom skill bars for each character would help as others suggested.
- The UI alltogether looks a bit too obtrusive. I'd honestly vote for a bit more minimalistic look, smaller windows and ditching the "glass" around the skills as it looks out of place. That would provide space for a bigger text window as well.
- The last thing I want to complain about, and this may not ring well with the others, is the battle system. I don't mind what I've seen at all, but I guess I was hoping for some sort of VATS. I know you guys don't want to turn this into Fallout, but this single feature made Fallout extremely tactical game even without the features you have shown. I love being able to cripple one guys leg or make a mob drop his weapon and move on to fight someone else in meantime.

BTW I see your comment there villain of the story

 

[Lancehead]

I was hoping for some sort of VATS

:pukes:

this single feature made Fallout extremely tactical game

Bwahaha, I hope he's trolling.

 

[villain of the story]

You have a FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED understanding of alts, Infinitron.

- Loading of text in the UI box line by line. It's a nice effect, but as the game is so heavily text based, it will just slow down the reading of the text heavily. I mean, it's almost impossible to read the text until it entirely loads as it stands. If you have to use some effect, a simple fast fade would look better. Or no effect at all.

I agree with this. It's a nice effect but it was already trying my patience before the first minute of gameplay was up.

 

[Infinitron]

Krellen's gonna Krellen:

I'm still sad to see that this is the direction you're taking the game, because it wasn't what I thought I was getting. While by no means do I begrudge you my donation - I knew what I was getting into - I nevertheless was looking for Wasteland 2, not Wasteland Fallout edition.

NEEDS MOAR STREAMLINING:

Great update! Game is shaping up really good. Couple if things I don't like: while I value all the options provided, it seems very tedious. Should have a much faster flow. Just to open one door you have to click and check every skill one at a time on each character. Needs to be streamlined to minimize the back and forth clicking. If I want to open a door it should just check the stats of my rangers and if one of them has the necessary stat, he automatically gets that door open. It's just a door and I want in, I don't want to spend a bunch of time clicking on it. Also I don't like the double fog of war. I can understand not displaying enemies, but the way it is now, walking in a building is like looking at a unfinished movie set. Takes away from the immersion factor. Just my two cents.

:patriot:

 

[Gakkone]

Ahh, it's somehow satisfying to see retards come into the realization that this isn't the game for them after all. I take it as a sort of confirmation that it's a game for me instead.

 

[villain of the story]

I was hoping for some sort of VATS

:pukes:

this single feature made Fallout extremely tactical game

Bwahaha, I hope he's trolling.

Well, not an aiming screen like in Fallout but something more fluent like in JA2, perhaps? JA2 kept it simple: head, body, legs, achieved by moving the cursor over the body. I would most likely want a similar locational aiming.

 

[Infinitron]

There's plenty of butthurt about the keywords of course. Too much for me to paste all of it. The good thing is that it's too late to change, so they'll just have to suck it up.

inb4 MUTE, SOULLESS ROBOTIC NPCS

 

[Captain Shrek]

Well, not an aiming screen like in Fallout but something more fluent like in JA2, perhaps? JA2 kept it simple: head, body, legs, achieved by moving the cursor over the body. I would most likely want a similar locational aiming.

It seems what ALL of us want, is really JA2 Back....

Would donate.

 

[Surf Solar]

Let me clarify on why popamole cover systems from Gears of War need to die in tactical-level combat - in a very simple way:

So you put your soldier behind some rock or some metallic object? Tough luck - you are still just as vulnerable as you were before. That's because the designer only marked specific objects as providing cover. Like some wooden crate - and it's always placed in such way that it will face the enemy. So you will get shot through a thick rock but a wooden crate will stop bullets no problem. And why my soldier can only crouch in specific positions but never when I want him to?

Not only it's stupid from a position of the common sense - this also limits your options greatly. You will always select the same object in the same area as cover - because the designer forces you to. If you don't - you will get shot.

Why is JA2 great and Fallout Tactics isn't? Oh but exactly because of this lazy limiting design.
And I don't want a JA2 clone (although it would've been great) - the point is that in JA2 it's your choice, not designer's choice.



P.S. Oh and please - leave that "it's just a tutorial area!!111" crap for ESF.

Even though I agree with you, kneeling/going prone was not case sensitive in Fallout Tactics, you could do it whenever you wanted, just like in JA2.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Codex doesn't disappoint!


What was the point of the boring radio chatter at the beginning? As expected, non-orthographic camera gives a headache and you have to fight with the camera all the damn time. Combat looks unresponsive and boring, but I'm giving the benefit of doubt since there are no meaty animations yet and it's relatively early game footage. Silly visual effects like those bulletholes at start of the fight. Bullet traces look silly, everything looks, as expected, cartoony, except the indoor areas, they look ok. I don't like the keyword dialogue system, but that's a matter of taste. I really like the soundeffects, they sound good. Liked that "endboss" thingy at the end of the video too.

All in all not as bad as I expected.

Yeah, this. The camera is pretty bad.

Combat is much slower and clunkier than in the original.

The upside is that there's no pistol and knife start.

 

[Lancehead]

Well, not an aiming screen like in Fallout but something more fluent like in JA2, perhaps? JA2 kept it simple: head, body, legs, achieved by moving the cursor over the body. I would most likely want a similar locational aiming.

I'd be very much in favour of it. But I was laughing at the quote how VATS made FO3 and NV a tactical game.

 

[villain of the story]

What was the point of the boring radio chatter at the beginning?

I loved it. I was ready to shrug it off and fast forward but then it captivated me. Great mood setter. Also a good marketing move to attract attention from non-backers, I suppose.