Wasteland Wasteland 2 Pre-Release Discussion Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Blaine]

I would say KOTOR characters looked better than Morrowind's, though that may be because Bethesda's modellers are horrible.

What do you mean? This looks fantastic!

In all seriousness, you're probably right, at least to some extent. I've played Morrowind multiple times over the years, the last two bouts loaded down with texture packs as in the above picture, so my judgment's a bit skewed. KotOR's animations were certainly far superior, too. Morrowind's animations were Ultima IX/King's Quest 8 levels of terrible.

 

[Krraloth]

Going back to the DPS talks and the weapon progression betterment...

If I understood correctly it has been argued that a consistent and yet lazy way to differentiate weapons and their usefulness to the player is the DPS score that is a blight that comes from the MMO world.
Essentially DPS is treated as the average per second damage of said weapon calculated for the player regardless of critical range, damage spread (2-10 ?), weapon speed (either rate of fire/reload time or swing/bash/stab recovery time) and armor rating/absorption.

What I don't get is this: if the DPS number is just a convenient way to calculate an average but it does not give you feedback on the situational damage (an example would be a two handed axe against an armored opponent with slashing absorption) the only real problem in fact is when the system "under the hood" is just calculating the DPS and all the other information given in the weapon explanation are just fluff.
Is there a game that tricks people in this way?

I have played some long hours of Lineage 2 and I have not seen a DPS number written anywhere on the weapons, in fact, back in the day, it took me a search on a forum just to find out what the fuck does DPS means and why it should be so important as to make me go into heated arguments with my guild as to why I will not make my Warcryer use yet another a fucking Dark Crystal Robe cause it improves overall DPS when Soul Stealing*...but I am massively digressing here.
The main point of this tirade is that I don't recall seeing any DPS until I played a much more recent MMO (Vanguard Saga) but I had no idea that by having an handy calculation made by the system for me removed weapon variety and situational advantages and weaknesses.
For instance am I playing massive hours of Depths of Peril and yes, there is a DPS number, but I get the feeling (I'm too lazy to do math) that is more of a guideline on how the said weapon will perform without accounting for the character stats or play style.

Now for a free retarded analogy: when you go buy shit at the supermarket you get a big bolded number that is the price of the piece you are about to buy, but there is usually a smaller number that details the price per kg or per liter. While the shop can and will try to divert your attention from the fact that you are probably buying something more expensive by adding a big red PROMOTION sing that does not factor in the new price per kg, it falls to you if you want to follow the numbers conveniently written for you or you want to factor in all the other variables that are in the system anyway just stop being a sheeple ffs.

On weapon variety I feel that if the game is designed around "cosmetic' and "easy to implement" differences it will turn out to be shit unless the main focus of the game is pure fun so it's not that important to work on number crunching (from the player's perspective ofc, in before what is a rpg) such as Unreal Tournament for example.

So you take a short sword and a long sword and you create a system for game that will try to establish what happens if peon number one armed with long sword and peon number two armed with short sword start fighting.
Usually there are all sorts of variables in the way the characters are built, what is the interactivity of the world they are fighting in, how much experience of said characters have with their respective weapons, how is the hit-miss mechanic going to affect the damage mechanic and the defense variables such as armor rating/absorption and so on.
And it's a lukewarm implementation at best: where is my fucking footing? where is the environmental collision? where is the fatigue? where are the fighting schools, you know those things that made a huge difference in the olden times and that determined if you could survive or not a fucking sgualembro to the face from a posta de' lanzone if the only thing you have is a fucking short sword and a huge desire to live?

Oh, and I agree about the shotgun, it seems like people forget that you have different types of ammunition that will totally change the behavior of the shots.
Also why not factor in the most important reason why a shotgun is used in the first place, you know? FUCKING BULLET SPREAD? the convenient way those gorgeous small silver balls will go their merry way and take down whoever poor fuck thought "this is far enough"?
The answer is this: it's too complex to implement so it will be made easier because the focus of the game is not just the combat.


When I play a videogame I don't usually compare its mechanics with reality all that much, the clever approach that some system take in order to abstract, calculate and then resolve an hostile encounter works and is good for what it is most of the times so it's not really a big problem if some developers streamline the whole she-bang since the focus of the game they are making was not on the combat system anyway (see Skyrim).
And no, I don't care for the way the developers diary, interviews and hype-fueled promises try to convince me that "their game is gonna be good because even if this is not like..."

The point is, why do I want to play this game?
The setting, the premise and the combat system seem good enough for me. A game will always have flaws and I just pray said flaws will be something I can easily put aside because the rest of it grips me.


So you read until now and you don't see where the fuck I am going with this, I do not know, just be entertained by my 40 plus minutes headache or something.



*as opposed of me equipping a Majestic Robe and Aura Sink the fuck out of bow users and see them despair cry grief because of boosted stun-resistance and no mana to use their pitiful skills on our mages during sieges

 

[Krraloth]

Stuff I will try to address but first I am confused

Okay, first of all I'm not sure if I made sense in my previous post or not.
Reading your answer makes me feel I couldn't come through with what I was trying to say.

I never stated DPS is inherently bad, the first part of my post was about my confusion about how this term is evolved into a mechanic by itself since for what I can remember the term itself was born to condense the amount of information and calculations required to have an average damage per second, or at least it's the way I have always applied said term.
To be honest I am not that keen on min-maxing, breaking mechanics over my knee or in general "master" the system (as in making it your bitch) so when I read how much some people here know the ins and outs of certain games (@DraQ with Morrowind spell system comes to mind) I am awed and cannot feel but that I don't think the majority of the players even understand that much in the first place.
But hey it's the Codex and I have been learning all sorts of shit from this place, things that are useful when I play so it's all fine and good.

So when you say that

DPS is just one thing you can assign to a weapon, right?"

I get the feeling we are talking about two distinctive things.

1) the sum of all the variables in the system uh...objective (so just the weapon in itself) + the circumstantial factors (character stats, synergies, armor of the opponent and I-forgot-what-else) = mh.. applied DPS

2) a lazy system design in where DPS is the only really important factor in determining the damage dealt by the character to an object or actor in the game world and all the rest is fluff.

it is terrible to claim that DPS is bad and let's replace it with other passive stuff like Crit range, damage type etc. The evil of DPS is that it is a non-reactive method of playing game. With DPS and weapon damage type like modifiers the role of the player boils down to right clicking an enemy in melee. The only way to solve that is allow activable tactical abilities that you have to CHOOSE when to apply.

But why can't one have both?
The DPS by itself (definition number 1 above) is just a means to simplify a complex (well to me) amount of math that is able to give you the ability to understand the expected damage dealt in a given circumstance, what is missing from this equation is the use of active and reactive mechanics (usually called skills) that can and will make a difference on top of the passive modifiers of whom you speak.

Did I understand your post?

 

[Helton]

So are we talking about DPS as in "DPS against an unarmored opponent"? Because in any game with DR coming off the top of damage, the situation is already way more complicated than that. And let's be real dog, games should integrate that DR component.

 

[Krraloth]

So are we talking about DPS as in "DPS against an unarmored opponent"? Because in any game with DR coming off the top of damage, the situation is already way more complicated than that. And let's be real dog, games should integrate that DR component.

1) the sum of all the variables in the system uh...objective (so just the weapon in itself) + the circumstantial factors (character stats, synergies, armor of the opponent and I-forgot-what-else) = mh.. applied DPS

 

[tuluse]

New interview with Fargo that I don't think has been posted.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-04-24-brian-fargo-backers-say-just-get-it-right

Haven't finished reading it yet, but I don't think there is any new info. Lots of warm and cuddly feelings about kickstarter, you know, if you're into that.

 

[Krraloth]

When DPS is the sole judge of usefulness of attack the game is sure to become boring.

I heartily agree, but then again there is a miss/hit system

The problem again, I iterate, DAMAGE is the sole metric for determining effectiveness. As you point out DPS = sum of all factors that determine damage. Which means that most if not all factors complement to enhance it. The thing I am saying is that this is unnecessary and very single track. Combat is not always about causing damage but also about HOW you cause it.

Well yes, but in the end very few games let you end a combat encounter (I mean once you start it and putting aside SMT negotiation for example, that for all intent and purposes branches off from the combat and is not integrated) without depleting some sort "sponge" that is calculated or better built around "how much damage can it sustain?"
I mean non scripted combat sequences.
It's either you render the guy unconscious or kill him.
Granted there are skills that instantly end the combat and are usable only when a certain condition is met (ie coup de grace) and they have no "damage factor".

You will agree I hope that in Turn Based games, it is possible to create circumstances where a character with small "Damage per turn" can still turn the tide of battle by grappling or Tripping an opponent, effectively taking them out of combat. See? No damage, but tactical maneuvers.

I'd say is one of the most important reasons to have a turn-based system instead of a RT one, and superior positioning choices, ofc.
In the end if the system is built around the fact that the resolution of the combat is a damage threshold and said combat maneuvers only provide a passive bonus to the damage dealt formula I seriously start to think that going down this line of thought streamlining isn't so bad...and that gives me the shivers.
Also DoT is just another flavor of damage, unless it's somehow linked to stat drainage or better yet, diseases (ala NWN).
One could argue that it adds in tactical options and that is true but the point of this is that in the end it is part of the DPS formula, it's just something you add on the side.

We always have DPS. The question is if we have anything else. Passive modifiers or weapon damage types are nothing but DPS (as you say). This means that the only way to have anything else is something that does not damage or does low damage but rather actively and on choice affects the game.

Yes, and I still think that when I use the broad term "skills" I encompass what you just wrote, and I've seen some good example of interesting mechanics in MMOs for instance (Vanguard Saga's rogues comes to mind) and that is RT and easy to integrate in a turn-based system, the question is why not more of this tactical choices are implemented in said games.

TOEE had most of them, I guess?

 

[Krraloth]

I think the game that came the closest was Knights of the Chalice. but kindly read about Chaos Chronicles and Larian's D:OS. Both look promising.

Fuck! I forgot about Knights of the Chalice

 

[EG]

So are you another dumbfuck arguing that the manual will solve all issues (in the case of Arcanum, baring a few mistakes, it sure as fuck will come close)? Or is this just some misguided belief that I've not seen its manual and telling me of it will change my initial argument that "tooltips aren't the harbinger of decline?" Feel free to use tooltips to mean other "streamlining" elements.

I like tooltips too, but lack of them is not a game-breaker for me, especially if there is a manual explaining everything.

But their presence doesn't diminish a game either. It merely makes it easier to make an informed decision if you're unfamiliar with the system (DX . . . what the fuck . . . *Hover* Dexterty . . . Oh Golly, what did the dictionary say that was? Dodging! Grace! Yay!!!").

It's the consoletard-ation (little text in a big font, voice overrs as a mandatory, uselessly-large inventory screens, limited controls) and the attempt at Web 2.0ing of games (whitepsace is awesome! People don't need an interface! Lol) . . . surely this dumbfuckery is the opposite of streamlining, as it makes nothing easier for anyone.

But I know I'm coming at this from the wrong angle now.

KotOR being empty rooms sparsely populated with NPCs though . . . God, it's like you guys didn't live through the games of that period, or something. Then Fallout 3, Dragon Age, and all that shit comes out with even less NPCs, but that's the pedestal you choose to rest your bullshit on.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Infinitron is right and this is something i've always said myself. Bethesda are successful precisely because they have a monopoly and for no other reason. Why no other company has attempted to exploit this situation is a big mystery to me which defies everything we've learned about the way markets work. You'd think the gaming scene would be sprawling with open ended first person Skyrim clones but for some reason that ain't happening.

 

[Sensuki]

Not many companies have the ~doLlAbiLLz~ to do it I guess.

CDProjekt are taking a crack at it with both their upcoming titles though

 

[Infinitron]

Infinitron is right and this is something i've always said myself. Bethesda are successful precisely because they have a monopoly and for no other reason. Why no other company has attempted to exploit this situation is a big mystery to me which defies everything we've learned about the way markets work. You'd think the gaming scene would be sprawling with open ended first person Skyrim clones but for some reason that ain't happening.

Not many companies have the ~doLlAbiLLz~ to do it I guess.

CDProjekt are taking a crack at it with both their upcoming titles though

I believe it's not so much a question of money as it is a question of return on investment. In the eyes of an AAA publisher, if you're going to spend tens of millions of dollars to make a huge open world that players will spend hundreds of hours in, then why make it a single player game? Make it an MMO so you can extract even more money out of your initial investment!

To them, a game like Oblivion or Skyrim looks it's leaving piles of money on the table. It's only now that all the WoW clones have tanked while Skyrim has sold record numbers that they've realized that approach won't work.

 

[Sensuki]

Follow market trend and make homogeneous product accordingly I suppose

unrelated but kinda related: go to a PC retailer website and look at mechanical keyboard section: 95% of the keyboards use the same design no matter the brand.

me: IBM Model M clacking(cackling?) away

 

[Krraloth]

Let's not forget the moddability that is at the core of the perceived openness of Bethesda's games.
I cannot help but shake the feeling that if Skyrim was not moddable it would've not sold as much.

The way people take for granted the amount of replayability that will be offered by the game thanks to the user produced content is staggering.
IIRC there are always people that start bashing on the mods for features made by the devs, so in their mind the line between what was intended for the game and the user created content it's blurry as fuck.

Tumble Roll against Attack of Opportunity 18+43=62 vs DC:40 Success

Yes, I know that the bulk of the sales comes from the consoles, but the word of mouth, the most vocal parts of the community and the sheer amount of hype generated by the pc buyers of Bethesda's titles for me guarantees sales in the long run

 

[Infinitron]

Yet another new Brian interview: http://www.gamefront.com/interview-with-inxiles-brian-fargo-on-wasteland-2/

 

[Brayko]

"All the publisher treatment I got, it was bad"
"Kickstarter has really gave us our dream when we thought it was over"
"We're well on our way to making the game we've always wanted to make, and we couldn't have done it without the fans"

How close was I?

 

[Infinitron]

"All the publisher treatment I got, it was bad"
"Kickstarter has really gave us our dream when we thought it was over"
"We're well on our way to making the game we've always wanted to make, and we couldn't have done it without the fans"

How close was I?

It's actually a tad more in-depth than that this time. He even talks about sexual inclusiveness!

 

[tuluse]

Also, he doesn't talk about publishers at all.

 

[Infinitron]

Yet another new Brian interview: http://www.gamefront.com/interview-with-inxiles-brian-fargo-on-wasteland-2/

Oh no it's a Rex interview I didn't notice

 

[Brayko]

The guy (Rex) is like a Shadow that haunts the Codex, you really can't go anywhere without bumping into him.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Yet another new Brian interview: http://www.gamefront.com/interview-with-inxiles-brian-fargo-on-wasteland-2/

Oh no it's a Rex interview I didn't notice

Ian Miles Cheong respects money, even when it comes from gay- and woman-haters

Funny how it took the series of Codex' recent successful campaigns for him to even acknowledge us again

 

[Infinitron]

Hah!

 

[Blaine]

Ian Miles Cheong respects money, even when it comes from gay- and woman-haters

He's only pretending to be a radcore manfem because that facilitates his "career" as a gaming "journalist". I'd be willing to bet that more than half of politicians in the US only go through the motions of being Christian. Same principle.

Also, he's Asian—of course he respects money. Which begs the question: Why the fuck did he embark on a "career" in gaming "journalism"?

 

[Krraloth]

Ian Miles Cheong respects money, even when it comes from gay- and woman-haters

He's only pretending to be a radcore manfem because that facilitates his "career" as a gaming "journalist". I'd be willing to bet that more than half of politicians in the US only go through the motions of being Christian. Same principle.

Also, he's Asian—of course he respects money. Which begs the question: Why the fuck did he embark on a "career" in gaming "journalism"?

The Siddhartha Syndrome?

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=3974&p=68724#p68724

Vote 'em on up, bitches. #3 is obviously best and most