Wasteland Wasteland 2 Pre-Release Discussion Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Clockwork Knight]

Like I said in the thread, I think it makes more sense in this kind of game for skills to not even show up as a dialog option,, but instead to be triggered by using the right skill in the right moment during dialog. Doing so, the devs can throw subtle clues in dialog and let the players figure out what to do.

You mean something like this?

NPC: Man, I found this weird gun but I can't get it to work.

Snake Vargas: [Repair]

NPC: [Failure] You aren't very good at this.

Angela Deth: [Repair]

NPC: [Failure] You aren't very good at this.

Hell Razor: [Repair]

NPC: [Sucess] Whoa, you did it!

I agree with meltdown, sounds like it would encourage trying EVERYTHING ON EVERYONE just to make sure you didn't miss anything.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

You mean something like this?

NPC: Good evening, stranger. Just so you know, I'm the law around these parts. Keep your nose clean and we'll get along just fine.

Snake Vargas: [Speech]

NPC: [Critical failure] MY MOTHER WAS A SAINT!

 

[Aeschylus]

I agree with meltdown, sounds like it would encourage trying EVERYTHING ON EVERYONE just to make sure you didn't miss anything.

You got adventure game in my RPG! No, seriously, this is a really cool idea, and I can't believe I've never seen it tried before in a game. Letting the player be creative with their skills in conversation, and possibly hiding some cool stuff in there for observant players could be really, really interesting.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

In theory, yes.

In practice, you're gonna have this feeling that very NPC could be behaving in an intentionally ambiguous way so you'll just mechanically click through the skill list whenever the dialogue is a little more specific than "Welcome to Ranger HQ!".

NPC: Man, I need someone to cut these bushes, they're in the way.

Snake Vargas: [Knives]

NPC: What?

Angela Deth: [Rifles]

NPC: What?

Hell Razor: [Repair]

NPC: What?

 

[Aeschylus]

In theory, yes.

In practice, you're gonna have this feeling that very NPC could be behaving in an intentionally ambiguous way so you'll just mechanically click through the skill list whenever the dialogue is a little more specific than "Welcome to Ranger HQ!".

NPC: Man, I need someone to cut these bushes, they're in the way.

Snake Vargas: [Knives]

NPC: What?

Angela Deth: [Rifles]

NPC: What?

Hell Razor: [Repair]

NPC: What?

People who are that OCD are going to be stopping to use their skills on every suspicious looking tile anyway, I don't really see the issue as long as the skills checks are fairly flexible and logical.

 

[SCO]

I agree with meltdown, sounds like it would encourage trying EVERYTHING ON EVERYONE just to make sure you didn't miss anything.

You got adventure game in my RPG! No, seriously, this is a really cool idea, and I can't believe I've never seen it tried before in a game. Letting the player be creative with their skills in conversation, and possibly hiding some cool stuff in there for observant players could be really, really interesting.

Never played QFG or Bloodnet before did you?

 

[Aeschylus]

I agree with meltdown, sounds like it would encourage trying EVERYTHING ON EVERYONE just to make sure you didn't miss anything.

You got adventure game in my RPG! No, seriously, this is a really cool idea, and I can't believe I've never seen it tried before in a game. Letting the player be creative with their skills in conversation, and possibly hiding some cool stuff in there for observant players could be really, really interesting.

Never played QFG or Bloodnet before did you?

I've played every single QFG game repeatedly, and I don't recall any instances of using your skills in conversation. You can use skills creatively on the environment of course, but there's no conversational interrupts. Or were you referring to Adventure/RPG hybrids existing in general?

 

[SCO]

Yeah that. But there are "skills" used in conversation too (honor and that "conversation" skill). Not to mention the class checks like the thieves sign.
And fallout was chock full of them.
I thought you meant the combination of objects and conversations (which are automatic in fallout, but could be a kind of "inventory" puzzle) - which are a staple of the adventure genre, so are naturally present in hybrids instead of "have skill-> can do" like in pure rpgs.

In fact, the only examples i remember (in fallout 2 - but without conversation, more like a scripted sequence) are the heart pills and the venon-cannister for the assassination of that dude in New Reno. And Nethack, which is almost more than adventure like with it's playful item/object/action combinations.

 

[Aeschylus]

Well, yeah but those are no different from any other passive skill check in conversations in RPGs. Anyway, I think the idea of being able to use skills actively in conversation is an interesting one, as long as the checks are logically designed.

 

[SCO]

One of the problems of the modern game IMO is that they've went too far in affordance - you always know when you can use a object or skill, even fallout had a perk to color-code the dialog options according to target reaction.

Take away the streamlining please.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

What you are saying is you don't like RPGs, nothing short of that. Because nothing you listed is as out of place as a dozen things in Wizardry or Ultima. I'm fine with it but it gets annoying that the few people who do and haven't given up on the genre are treated like second class citizens.

I get the impression some codexers don't really like RPGs, they just liked Fallout.

Also it's somewhat telling the Codex' favorites are usually easy, atmosphere heavy games. The holy trinity in particular.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

NPC: Man, I need someone to cut these bushes, they're in the way.

Snake Vargas: [Knives]

NPC: What?

Angela Deth: [Rifles]

NPC: What?

Hell Razor: [Repair]

NPC: What?

Yeah. I'm not so sure this is any better an idea than the "ask" feature in Fallout.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Oh come on, man. Yeah there are a lot of Fallout people here. Myself included. But I was there in the day of the c64 turning corners, burning torches and typing "Use *insert item*" at every goddamn command I could. Most people here are fairly well-versed in that which preceded them. No need to belittle that for any reason. Fallout was like Twin Peaks. It was fucking good and different from anything else at the time...and people responded to it. You can't fault people for remembering something memorable.

 

[Alex]

using the right skill in the right moment during dialog.

I hope you don't mean there's reaction time involved

No, far from it. I just meant that for the skill to work correctly, it must be used in a context that makes sense. For example, if you are trying to bribe a guard, it won't do to just offer the bribe as soon as you talk to him. You have to make some small talk with him, get him to tell you about how poorly they are paid, or how his roof leaks when it rains and he has no money to fix it. Then you move in to the kill.

In any case

1) what's to stop the player from trying all his moderate-high skills at any perceived turning point during a conversation (limiting amount of tries? based on charisma?) And to aid the player: what subtle clues exactly, are you thinking up to specific interface cues like a small icon indicating 'something extra to be found'? Or just judge according to dialog?

Well, using the wrong skill at the right time might have amusing results to begin with. If you try seducing a biker gang leader (who happens to be very straight) with an all male party, the complete opposite of what Bioware fans expected might happen. Trying diplomacy with him might not be so bad, but he might enter bully mode, making demands that clearly will get you into trouble "Sure, we can talk. But first give your weapons to Larry here. You know, as a sign of trust". Then again, diplomacy might prove more effective after he was threatened, and threatening him might be more effective after you busted a few skulls of his gang.

As for the hints, yes, I meant dialog only. And not necessarily from the NPC either. For example, a caravan guard might remark some time that the tough leader of the band actually has a soft spot for learned men, cuing the player that a character with more academic skills might be able to use a "seduce" skill on her.

2) There should be free for all skillcheck branches you can trigger at any time, like for example doing something non time critical(i.e. not a hostage situation, etc)but still requiring specialist knowledge to start, like beginning a conversation about advanced battlefield surgery. Or is that too casual and without a sense of urgency

I think options that are only part of the dialog tree, of meeting a specific character, could use the old branching format. I really see no problem with that. Sometimes a conversation is just a conversation, and the dialog tree is one of the easiest ways to make it flow well, so go with it. Other times, however, a conversation option means something, changes something. It is in these cases I think such a system might really be useful.

3) What about feedback upon failure, should there any at all like continuing from the previous example the doctor might say "I'll teach you more but you should get your fundamentals down first", or when there isn't such an option at all? I'm thinking a random line from a pool of responses for each skill that npcs won't talk about.

Don't know for sure how to best implement this, but I definitely think good feedback for failure is important. I was just playing Maniac Mansion recently, and I noticed that when you asked a kid to do something he couldn't the feedback was different from when you asked something impossible. This helped make the game better (even if I was to hardheaded t notice the difference all those years ago when I first played it).

4)Oh god what about the adventure gamey 'use item on npc" command, or should items that begin quests automatically give you access to the new dialog

Well, I would definitely like that. Maybe not for all items, if a use was obvious, just present it in dialog. But having the world be full of secrets you might larn and act on can make for a very fun game in my opinion.

bro don't mind the questioning think of it as a codexian reaction to any feature being described as opposed to the usual gamer response of "sounds awesome and innovative"

No problem at all. I am actually glad you asked questions instead of just going "awesome (and innovative)".

Clockwork Knight

I was going to say this wouldn't be much more of problem than trying every verb on every noun in an adventure game. But now that I think about it, I think having the use of these skills be more context sensitive could greatly help this. It is not just a question of threatening, but blackmailing someone with the evidence. It is not just a question of using diplomacy, it is knowing what the other side wants, and what they are willing to give.

SCO

I know you probably meant bloodnet, not nethack, but if you didn't, I really need to get to deeper levels in that game. But you are right, some games did something like this before. Neuromancer isn't really an RPG, but it implemented skill use in dialog much like this. Well, at least it implemented cop talk like this, I don't remember if there were other occasions where it came up.

TwinkieGorilla

Well, I think that as long as they implement enough instances of it, and have enough hints lying around, it might actually make for good gameplay. What really worries me is whether it would be worth the extra work, given their budget. By the way, I was going to post a topic about the "ask" from fallout, suggesting it was used in a similar way to Neuromancer. It is a bit late now, though ,so I will do it tomorrow.

 

[RK47]

I just know there was nothing to do and no point to any town in Fallout 1.

Yeah. I'm done.

 

[Johannes]

So if I find Fallout combat to be shitty and doubly so around useless trash mobs like rats or ants, and prefer the more interesting multi-solution questlines of FO1, I don't like RPGs?

In any case I recall FO2 having much bigger amount of straightforward fetch quests (but could be due to just it having more quests overall actually). Every town in FO1 made me stay for a while and look, often in FO2 though I'd look around and feel like there's shit all to do there - the town with the wedding possiblility comes to mind most prominently. But I don't really mind having some towns with not so much in them, I'll just move on forward in that case and it does bring a certain ambience to the gameworld. Playing Arcanum for example as a kid, I remember being annoyed how the world didn't feature any smaller villages or towns (beside the starting one), traveling around and seeing only big cities felt a bit disjointed.

Of course, in games with actual enjoyable combat it is the main gameplay course, but cmon, FO combat? I'll be picking diallogue options over that shit any day.

 

[mondblut]

Yeah, Klamath, Modoc and Arroyo were awesome, interesting, full of superb quests and they add plenty of interest things to fallout setting and lore.

Klamath and Modoc? You mean those "let's drop theme parks for a moment and make a couple of settlements exactly like they were in F1" ones? Yeah, they were boring and filler. Just like every settlement in F1, indeed.

Indeed, shit jokes, ghosts, aliens, pinky and the brain, scientologists with celebrities , bruce lee, talking plants, sex stats, porn collect-a-quests, more references to monty python than you can count, yakuza with samurai swords, king-fu fighting town, tribals, drug dealers, talking deathclaws, entire Temple of Trials, cheating chess-playing radscorpion with fucking glasses you can steal, ass-raping mutant with a ball gag, knights on a quest for a Holy Hand Grenade. Yes, world of fallout 2 was better.

Methinks somebody takes a genre dedicated almost exclusively to gay bikers in BDSM harnesses too seriously.

Personally, I'll take gangsters in fedoras and scientology celebrities over mutated orcs and men in leather harnesses any day. Not to mention Monty Python - every, and I do mean every, RPG must be wholly and completely dedicated to them.

 

[Wyrmlord]

What you are saying is you don't like RPGs, nothing short of that. Because nothing you listed is as out of place as a dozen things in Wizardry or Ultima. I'm fine with it but it gets annoying that the few people who do and haven't given up on the genre are treated like second class citizens.

I get the impression some codexers don't really like RPGs, they just liked Fallout.

Also it's somewhat telling the Codex' favorites are usually easy, atmosphere heavy games. The holy trinity in particular.

Dark Underlord himself almost never played any RPG outside Fallout and Arcanum.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Well I just started Wasteland this morning for the first time, went with the default party, went to Highpool, checked out the place, noticed a locked door. Had no key so used strength to break it open, pissed off some fuckers. Got clues about potential quests along with the notes on the wall. Saw some rubble in some building, used perception skill to notice it was a generator that could be replaced. With my new knowledge I could finally talk to the kid about things. Went to the Agricultural center, took the bunny quest, saw a locked gate, tried using strength, didn't work. Used crowbar, it worked, picked up my first loot. Fought lizards, couldn't hit them for shit with guns so I switched to knives. Oops, out of range so I ran forward and cut up the fuckers.

In just a few minutes I had to use my brain and my non combat skills more than in every Bioware game this decade.

THIS IS WHAT I WANT FROM WASTELAND 2.

And more than in Fallout 2.

 

[commie]

Heh, yeah.

Actually playing more I got to thinking how good the text parser is in this type of game. It really makes you to look for clues as to be able to know what to ask about rather than having it served up on a plate with a relevant conversation topic automatically appearing when you find the right thing. Even Morrowind's key word list is a kind of 'cheat' as you can easily see by what is recorded as to whether it's relevant or just a red herring. I wouldn't mind it as a compromise for the less hardcore crowd though as it's still better than the Bioware or modern Bethesda model where you can only ask about certain limited things only when the developers let you.

Like this you are forced to explore, ask around, use non combat skills like perception, intimidate etc. to find out things. Then you have to decide what is relevant and what isn't and based on this you can ask people about things you know about through actual work..you know actual role playing shit.

Of course it would be a great benefit to have an in game journal which would record conversations and document details rather than having to write everything down. This would only be sensible if something like a more complex conversation system was implemented in this day and age and would not be dumbing down, just a convenience. You'd still have to read to figure out what to ask about.


Incidentally what was the text parser for in FO1 and FO2? I think I used it once. It seemed like a left over relic in those games as it wasn't necessary.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

So if I find Fallout combat to be shitty and doubly so around useless trash mobs like rats or ants, and prefer the more interesting multi-solution questlines of FO1, I don't like RPGs?

Eh, I dunno, depends on how you feel about non-Fallout RPGs. The combat is indeed crappy so I imagine most people who like FO like it because of what the game does well.

 

[Taxnomore]

The text parser was put in to please old school gamers, but served no real point. They did the same thing in Leisure Suite Larry 7 for extra nakedness.

As for the difference in FO2 and FO1, I think both are great. Although FO1 was more serious, I liked how FO2 was not taking itself too seriously at times, and well, this reminded me that I was playing a game and not a nerd trying to play pretend in my fantasy Mad Max world environment. You people who hated FO2 for what it was trying to be should just sit back and relax.

And as if Wasteland didn't feature insane shit. Killer clowns, and explosive tomatoes on catapults anyone ? Will you guys be crying when that kind of stuff makes it in Wasteland 2, or will you blame Fargo if the game doesn't have them ?

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Heh, yeah.

Actually playing more I got to thinking how good the text parser is in this type of game. It really makes you to look for clues as to be able to know what to ask about rather than having it served up on a plate with a relevant conversation topic automatically appearing when you find the right thing. Even Morrowind's key word list is a kind of 'cheat' as you can easily see by what is recorded as to whether it's relevant or just a red herring. I wouldn't mind it as a compromise for the less hardcore crowd though as it's still better than the Bioware or modern Bethesda model where you can only ask about certain limited things only when the developers let you.

Like this you are forced to explore, ask around, use non combat skills like perception, intimidate etc. to find out things. Then you have to decide what is relevant and what isn't and based on this you can ask people about things you know about through actual work..you know actual role playing shit.

 

[udm]

Oh boy here we go again

http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=811

 

[Oesophagus]

I don't know, but I think these people's only experience with social interactions is from tv and video games. Must be, since they want every single thing in the game to result in party chatter...