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Game News Wasteland 2 to use Unity

St. Toxic

Arcane
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Not like the engine determines if the game is good or not, though it can certainly put a limit on how good the end product is. That's kind of the issue as well, you don't know what kind of problems might come up when trying to add a specific game feature with a new engine. If you can look back at a game that's done something similar with the same technology, that's one less thing to worry about. Though I have to point out, I'm arguing the general point as I know fuck all about Unity.
 

tiagocc0

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Not like the engine determines if the game is good or not, though it can certainly put a limit on how good the end product is. That's kind of the issue as well, you don't know what kind of problems might come up when trying to add a specific game feature with a new engine. If you can look back at a game that's done something similar with the same technology, that's one less thing to worry about. Though I have to point out, I'm arguing the general point as I know fuck all about Unity.
That's why this discussion started, Unity doesn't have a similar game done. So even though it's a good engine it means that a lot of new features will have to be added. Which means it act just like a new engine less the parts that are done and tested.
From the games made for Unity we can assume that something was done and tested and something other things must be created and will face the same issue as a new engine.

I would argue against Unity as I don't believe they have tested their engine that much as they are always adding things in instead of trying to mature what they already have. Because it's a "casual engine" trying to reach as many as possible. They must act like that to survive, it doesn't mean they are wrong, it just mean that I don't like this kind of engine.

EDIT: So instead of just counting the number of games done I would also consider how the engine updates/adds new features/test their software.
 

DarkUnderlord

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Once again, popularity (certainly in terms of number of people using it or number of games released) is irrelevant for a game engine.
I have to disagree with this generalized statement. A completely new engine will not have its strengths and weaknesses as fully explored as one that has seen a good deal of use, so in terms of having to select an engine for game development it's clearly less attractive to go for an engine that has yet to penetrate the market. Nothing to do with the quality of the engine, naturally, but it's def. the safer choice to use an engine that has been thoroughly tested by other developers.
As tiagocc0 says, it depends on who those developers are though. You might have an engine that's brand spanking new versus an engine that's been around for a while but - as you acknowledge - who built it, who's used it and who's done what with it - and what can that engine really do? Unity is still fairly new because, as I said earlier, it's been around for a good decade now but who's really used it? Mostly a bunch of amateur projects. The big stuff is either still under-development or has only come out fairly recently (being Battlestar Galactica which is an MMO that's still in beta, while the other is Tiger Woods Online which I'm pretty sure works as a web-plugin through your browser).

Maybe Unity is a great online MMO engine. But why hasn't a "serious" AAA developer used it for a PC / desktop based game yet? You know, one that I can buy in stores? Compare that to Unreal which has been used in plenty of AAA PC-based titles, the CryEngine which has had its fair share of titles and even C4 - which while not as impressive, has been used in some games going back as far as 2008 (and is actually used in some Universities as a teaching tool for game development).

In fact, I could probably argue that maybe there's a reason why an engine that's been around for so long still hasn't been used by a AAA developer yet (for anything other than mobile or online web-based games).

But, given most games are built with an in-house engine (at least in the RPG industry, obviously FPS-fags will beg to differ), then a good team with source code access should be able to make almost anything work. But we shouldn't be under any delusions that it's going to work right out of the box and that they aren't going to run into problems (As they would with any engine).
 

St. Toxic

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That's why this discussion started, Unity doesn't have a similar game done. So even though it's a good engine it means that a lot of new features will have to be added. Which means it act just like a new engine less the parts that are done and tested.
From the games made for Unity we can assume that something was done and tested and something other things must be created and will face the same issue as a new engine.

I would argue against Unity as I don't believe they have tested their engine that much as they are always adding things in instead of trying to mature what they already have. Because it's a "casual engine" trying to reach as many as possible. They must act like that to survive, it doesn't mean they are wrong, it just mean that I don't like this kind of engine.

EDIT: So instead of just counting the number of games done I would also consider how the engine updates/adds new features/test their software.


It's a fair point and I would have to agree. There are plenty of other considerations involved when choosing what engine to use. And naturally, if you're making, say, an fps your first choice of engine wouldn't be one used flawlessly for hundreds of 2d puzzle-games, you're going to look for something that can output the same type of games as the one you're trying to make. From what I've seen of Unity it's a platform for churning out shitty browser-based mmo's, so I guess that hardly bodes well, but whatever.

The claim that the number of games made with an engine is irrelevant when choosing an engine is still pretty short-sighted though.

As tiagocc0 says, it depends on who those developers are though. You might have an engine that's brand spanking new versus an engine that's been around for a while but - as you acknowledge - who built it, who's used it and who's done what with it - and what can that engine really do? Unity is still fairly new because, as I said earlier, it's been around for a good decade now but who's really used it? Mostly a bunch of amateur projects.

Not sure if W2 is setting out to push the limit of what Unity can do, but I'll give you half a point. No, there hasn't been any serious AAA title on Unity (well, if you say there hasn't, I'm not checking facts here) but I'm also getting the vibe that Unity didn't start out as the intended engine of a X3A game like Unreal or Cry. If it had, the kids would probably be bashing each other over whether "Unity 2: Broken Dreams" runs better on Xbox or Ps3 right about now.

A big bunch of amateur projects is still a good track record in my book, as groups of diehard professionals are potentially able to make Super Mario run on a pile of dog shit, which tells us precious little about the dog shit. Though, I guess that's a strawman.

In fact, I could probably argue that maybe there's a reason why an engine that's been around for so long still hasn't been used by a AAA developer yet (for anything other than mobile or online web-based games).

What about W2? In any case, I wouldn't make that argument if I were you. There's probably plenty of reasons outside of the engine's capabilities and performance that keep it from hitting the X3A jackpot. Like I insinuated before, if there was a successful title involved with the engine from the get-go, it wouldn't matter if the engine was complete shit, there would probably be games using it just for the prestige-sales.

But, given most games are built with an in-house engine (at least in the RPG industry, obviously FPS-fags will beg to differ), then a good team with source code access should be able to make almost anything work. But we shouldn't be under any delusions that it's going to work right out of the box and that they aren't going to run into problems (As they would with any engine).

Most definitely.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
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Messages
5,673
The proof of this is that they had to get the source code. If Unity was that good they wouldn't have to get the source code at all.

Huh? They wanted the source code for Unigine too, their other final candidate. It has dick-all to do with the engine being "good", it has to do with whether or not the project can be afforded to have only limited access. For Unity, going without source code was not an option if for no other reason than the need to create a Linux port.

Anyway, the lead programmer penned a piece on why they picked Unity. Should be up soon enough. Very much so doubt it'll make a difference to the people arguing in this thread.

EDIT: here it is
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Reading that update, I suspect the folks at inXile have read this thread.
 

koyima

Educated
Joined
May 13, 2012
Messages
94
DarkUnderlord compares Unity to a fictitious Custom Engine and his argument is that Custom Engines have zero market penetration.

I have already explained why they presumably shot down this option (expensive to reach the same results).
I explained that whoever tells you they can make something what took a team of 50-150 people 10 years to make
in less than a 1 and a half is talking crap.

To further illustrate the use of different cons making a solution innapropriate I will point you to the
comparison I made with 2 other Engines: Unreal and CryEngine.

Those engines don't lack popularity, so based on me using popularity as a metric, those should be chosen, right?
No.

In that case a combination of pricing and user experience was more likely to be the determining factor, as I
have already explained.

RPG Maker may be older, but doesn't have the feature set.


Now if you don't understand that when comparing a set of objects you can have different pros and different cons
and select based on which solution/object has the most pros for your specific situation you are simply retarded.

Do I have to make an excell sheet for you guys?


PS: I never used the term market penetration. Fabrications I tell you.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
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Messages
5,673
Reading that update, I suspect the folks at inXile have read this thread.

Of course. inXile devs read the Codex and other sites/forums. I'm not sure that's a positive in this case, tho'. I think the level of griping and just open disbelief in inXile's abilities can be a little off-putting. But it makes sense. We're curmudgeonly, and even in the BIS days this is how it worked. People like to armchair quarterback.

That's why open communications and detailed explanations are good. I thought this update detailing the decision making, while obviously not going into the deepest level of detail, was excellent for that.
 

koyima

Educated
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May 13, 2012
Messages
94
What needs to be more detailed than hitting the sweet spot? Do you really have a viable alternative?

That is what I'm trying to explain in all these posts. When you put all the pros and cons together for this specific project
Unity has a slight edge. Compared to Unreal it's probably pricing, compared to Unigine time as a game engine, compared
to C4 actual titles completed, compared to a Custom Engine it's already here and it's cheaper etc etc

And here is how they did an actual comparison, they used them:

*Technology inXile has used: Snowblind Engine, RadTools, UE3 Engine, Gamebryo Engine, RKEngine, and various smaller third-party tools for game sub systems such as, path-finding, physics, character animation and lip-synching, etc.
 

St. Toxic

Arcane
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Yemen / India
I think the level of griping and just open disbelief in inXile's abilities can be a little off-putting.

It'll be like that all the way, but I'm sure they're used to it. That's why making games for kids is so attractive, you just make it really shiny and say it's the best and they lap it up. Of course, you're making shitty games but that's beside the point.
 

EG

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Oct 12, 2011
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zIukD.png


(Buttons blown up for comedic effect . . . CHA has been lovingly clicked. IFACE is a mere static box meant to act as a template for placement in nary a future too far. Through usage of AddComponent within unique scripts -- classes --, and others, spagetti code should be avoidable, if these doing more then being clickable ever occurs)

Very hard. This is.

I will surpass you, Prosper!
 

tiagocc0

Arcane
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The proof of this is that they had to get the source code. If Unity was that good they wouldn't have to get the source code at all.

Huh? They wanted the source code for Unigine too, their other final candidate. It has dick-all to do with the engine being "good", it has to do with whether or not the project can be afforded to have only limited access. For Unity, going without source code was not an option if for no other reason than the need to create a Linux port.

Anyway, the lead programmer penned a piece on why they picked Unity. Should be up soon enough. Very much so doubt it'll make a difference to the people arguing in this thread.

EDIT: here it is

Linux is an excuse, they wouldn't go for Unity if the source was not provided.
I hardly believe they would be able to make a W2 for windows using Unity without the source.

What's good about an engine that's only good if you have the source code?
And the source code is provided only to big developers?
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
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Messages
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Linux is an excuse, they wouldn't go for Unity if the source was not provided.

You think other engines would not have required source code access and support? Has little to do with Unity.

What's good about an engine that's only good if you have the source code?

For these "generic" engines, once your project reaches a level of complexity, you will want the source code. Making games without source code on a non-specialized engine is really only for casual boring-banal-bullshit.
 

EG

Nullified
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Messages
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For these "generic" engines, once your project reaches a level of complexity, you will want the source code. Making games without source code on a non-specialized engine is really only for casual boring-banal-bullshit.

*Ceases efforts/idiocy* :(
 

tiagocc0

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Linux is an excuse, they wouldn't go for Unity if the source was not provided.

You think other engines would not have required source code access and support? Has little to do with Unity.

That's true, but the fact that Unity does not provide the source is embarrassing.
How can we take it seriously if everybody who does get serious with the engine has to beg for the source code?

What's good about an engine that's only good if you have the source code?

For these "generic" engines, once your project reaches a level of complexity, you will want the source code. Making games without source code on a non-specialized engine is really only for casual boring-banal-bullshit.

Amen!
 

koyima

Educated
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May 13, 2012
Messages
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"The artists loved its support for the native formats of the art tools we already use (3DS Max and Photoshop). I also like its built-in version control for assets and code." Asking artists about the Engine is bad you said. It was not only important, but number 1 on their list.

"We’ve also had generous offers from the Wasteland community of coders to help with developing those tools." Community is useless since the engine sucks you said. Support and Community was 3rd on the list.

"And yet I think the fact that Unity provides their basic engine/editor for free is a big plus as a starting point for providing the tools necessary for supporting modding of Wasteland 2. " A free version, look at all these opensource/never-finished engines you said. Having a free version
was only a marketing thing you said to increase popularity... Take the good with the bad I said.

"We’ve been able to find all kinds of useful 3D assets and code in the Asset Store ranging in price from cheap to free! Having an organized marketplace like the Asset Store for finding assets and expertise fits right in with our desire to leverage and give back to the community. While we cannot share engine source code changes, we can share script code and components, as well as graphical assets as part of our modding support." Re-using assets and using ready made solutions is bad you said. It reminded you of DLC...

"After talking to Unity about this, we found they’ve already been working on a Linux port, so Unity is supplying inXile the Linux port alpha source code." They got Fargo's money so they started porting to Linux you said. Also they aren't getting source code for "free", they are essentially working with Unity to complete the Linux version in parallel, Unity getting feedback from a real production that is.

"Finally, from looking at Unity demos, other games developed with Unity, and conducting our own art and coding tests, we are convinced that Unity delivers on the game system that we need to build Wasteland 2 in style. This includes advanced 3D rendering, pathing, physics (PhysX), multiple options for scripting language, advanced 3D level editor that is customizable with scripted components, and much more."
 

torque

Novice
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May 21, 2007
Messages
19
Linux is an excuse, they wouldn't go for Unity if the source was not provided.
I hardly believe they would be able to make a W2 for windows using Unity without the source.
OMG! IT'S ALL A CONSPIRACY TO PROVE YOUR POINT INVALID!

What's good about an engine that's only good if you have the source code?
And the source code is provided only to big developers?
You can work out a licensing deal including the source. It's just not listed in the comparison table. There's a mail link somewhere, though.

Fake-Edit: https://store.unity3d.com/ on the right "For console and source code license please contact us."​
 

koyima

Educated
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May 13, 2012
Messages
94
Source code was given to Linux Alpha version, for the purpose of porting to Linux, it never said the engine lacked in
other departments that needed Source code fixing in order to make a less banal game. On the contrary

"we are convinced that Unity delivers on the game system that we need to build Wasteland 2 in style."

Anyway even with the official responce you will bitch and moan, there's no convincing you guys here.

Bye bye!:smug:
 

koyima

Educated
Joined
May 13, 2012
Messages
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Linux is an excuse, they wouldn't go for Unity if the source was not provided.

You think other engines would not have required source code access and support? Has little to do with Unity.

That's true, but the fact that Unity does not provide the source is embarrassing.
How can we take it seriously if everybody who does get serious with the engine has to beg for the source code?

What's good about an engine that's only good if you have the source code?

For these "generic" engines, once your project reaches a level of complexity, you will want the source code. Making games without source code on a non-specialized engine is really only for casual boring-banal-bullshit.

Amen!
UDK doesn't, CryEngine doesn't. You can pay a milliion bucks to get it though. Ridiculous you say? Industry Standard for the big players from what I see.

Battlestar Galactica Online - A MMO used vanilla Unity, no source. So the engine can be used to make a MMO, but not Wasteland... They have to beg for source code, which is embarasing, but all the serious players keep it to themselves unless you can spare the cash. There was a conspiracy I tell you.
 

tiagocc0

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Linux is an excuse, they wouldn't go for Unity if the source was not provided.

You think other engines would not have required source code access and support? Has little to do with Unity.

That's true, but the fact that Unity does not provide the source is embarrassing.
How can we take it seriously if everybody who does get serious with the engine has to beg for the source code?

What's good about an engine that's only good if you have the source code?

For these "generic" engines, once your project reaches a level of complexity, you will want the source code. Making games without source code on a non-specialized engine is really only for casual boring-banal-bullshit.

Amen!
UDK doesn't, CryEngine doesn't. You can pay a milliion bucks to get it though. Ridiculous you say? Industry Standard for the big players from what I see.

Battlestar Galactica Online - A MMO used vanilla Unity, no source. So the engine can be used to make a MMO, but not Wasteland... They have to beg for source code, which is embarasing, but all the serious players keep it to themselves unless you can spare the cash. There was a conspiracy I tell you.

Battlestar Galactica Online is a browser-based Massively Multiplayer Online Game. For god's sake, are you comparing a browser-based game to W2?
 

commie

The Last Marxist
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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
I don't give a good fuck what engine is used so long as it's good enough to replicate a Fallout/Wasteland experience.
 

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