Game News Wasteland 2's Delay: All About Making Choice Matter

[evdk]

The mention of TWD's choices in a positive light angers me.

Honestly, TW2 is a beacon of reactivity compared to its closest kin, Mass Effect (which is the comparison in the article). I did a 1:1 to one comparison of actual C&C in an old thread during a discussion with VD and Mrowak... and no matter what you feel about TW, the concrete difference between Bioware and CD Project was pretty staggering.

(obviously I agree that the author's hard on for TW2 as though it was some stellar mark for how good reactivity can get is retarded)

The Walking Dead, I was talking about The Walking Dead.

 

[Infinitron]

Metro http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/201...l-about-making-choice-matter/#comment-1315548

A certain games youtuber by the name of TotalBiscuit backed this game to the point of getting an NPC with his likeness into the game. To his own admission with the thought of being able to get killed by all his haters. Rock on, sir. You understand the internet.

I bet you can't wait.

 

[Grunker]

The mention of TWD's choices in a positive light angers me.

Honestly, TW2 is a beacon of reactivity compared to its closest kin, Mass Effect (which is the comparison in the article). I did a 1:1 to one comparison of actual C&C in an old thread during a discussion with VD and Mrowak... and no matter what you feel about TW, the concrete difference between Bioware and CD Project was pretty staggering.

(obviously I agree that the author's hard on for TW2 as though it was some stellar mark for how good reactivity can get is retarded)

The Walking Dead, I was talking about The Walking Dead.

Metro http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/201...l-about-making-choice-matter/#comment-1315548

A certain games youtuber by the name of TotalBiscuit backed this game to the point of getting an NPC with his likeness into the game. To his own admission with the thought of being able to get killed by all his haters. Rock on, sir. You understand the internet.

I bet you can't wait.

Will there be torture? I hope there'll be torture.

 

[mindx2]

Sounds good. Of course the butthurt from the usual crowd will be enormous.

Right on cue, my Bohemian buddy: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/201...l-about-making-choice-matter/#comment-1315464

I think I came up with an appropriate response.

He clarifies what he considers the paragon of player choice:

I would use this point to question whether consequence is as important in long form factor games (where replaying is less likely) as choice is. I enjoy making choices that immerse me in the game and personalise it for me somewhat, I’m not too fussed about the narrative consequences of that choice. Baldurs gate is a good example, I can play a thief character, but due to the party system can experience other classes, I can choose the brash dialogue choices over the noble ones but still essentially see all of the game.

 

[AstroZombie]

I think I came up with an appropriate response.

The faggot responded twice:

I think your reply is unnecessarily rude honestly. The opposite of missing out on large parts of a games experience because a choice and consequence system that adds little else to the game isn’t being “tube fed” or not having any control. I was simply trying to have a dialogue about the downsides of consequence in a game and the potential for it to be tokenistic. I clearly haven’t criticised choice and consequence outright, or criticised anyone who does enjoy it.

PS: If you die in Mario you just never play the game again? You know you can restart the level right?

If you find people asking whether consequence in computer games is fundamentally a good thing “abhorrent” and feel the need to answer in a snarkey and impolite manner rather than having a polite debate then you should probably try to experience more of the world; it’ll give you some perspective and you might learn some manners along the way.

 

[Stabwound]

Yeah, because Baldur's Gate is a perfect example of a game with reactive C&C. The choices come down to:

Do I murder person A or person B?
Do I save person C or let them die?
Do I accept quest or not?

90% of the time it's no choice at all, and the other 10% has almost no effect on anything, and certainly on nothing that affects the storyline.

But also, BG2 is a game that you have to play multiple times to see all of the content (player strongholds) so he's a dumbfuck too.

 

[Grunker]

Yeah, because Baldur's Gate is a perfect example of a game with reactive C&C. The choices come down to:

I think perhaps you missed the part where he said we has pro-choice but anti-consequence...

 

[Cowboy Moment]

The mention of TWD's choices in a positive light angers me.

Honestly, TW2 is a beacon of reactivity compared to its closest kin, Mass Effect (which is the comparison in the article). I did a 1:1 to one comparison of actual C&C in an old thread during a discussion with VD and Mrowak... and no matter what you feel about TW, the concrete difference between Bioware and CD Project was pretty staggering.

(obviously I agree that the author's hard on for TW2 as though it was some stellar mark for how good reactivity can get is retarded)

I think CDPR want C&C in their games for fundamentally storyfag reasons. Mechanically, it makes no difference how you develop your character, you just pick choice A and get content B. For them, consequences are a storytelling technique, a way to give weight to the "moral dilemmas" they value so much. So while we may scoff at the simplicity of the big choice at the end of Witcher 2's Act 1, I thnk the reason it's there is that it gives more nuance to the story by letting the player experience it from two sides of a conflict. And since narrative strands from both sides matter in Act 3, the only way to get a full picture of all the schemes and machinations going on is to play the game more than once. I personally think it's kind of a neat idea, although not a very good example of proper reactivity. Funnily enough this is also something VD wants to do with AoD on a much larger scale.

On that note, one of the cool things about Witcher 2's choices, is that if you look at them knowing who the "villain" is and what's at stake, then the "optimal" choices are generally the least palatable ones, like letting Henselt live after he rapes Ves, or letting Temeria become a Redanian protectorate.

 

[Grunker]

I'm not sure what to say. I like both of The Witcher's, and I think #2 overall has some pretty cool reactivity going on. I don't think of it as a guiding star for every other game aspiring to reactivity though, which is what the interviewer seems to feel.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Sounds good. Of course the butthurt from the usual crowd will be enormous.

Right on cue, my Bohemian buddy: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/201...l-about-making-choice-matter/#comment-1315464

I don’t know how important I think choice is. I mean done well choice and consequences in a game can draw the player into the script or into the role they play and provoke thought about their actions, but a lot of the time it just means that you won’t see all of the game if you don’t have the time-luxury of a replay, or miss out on bits of the game you might have enjoyed more than the bit you got.

I was a real fan of ‘The Walking Dead’s” illusion of choice: the experience of choice was something that drew you into the story and connected you with it in a way only interactive fiction can, the consequences were how you felt about your actions, but behind the curtain your choices had less in-game consequence then it might appear and less of the product was wasted because of them.

I guess I think choice is more important than consequence for me: If an NPC was dangling off a cliff my experience of choosing either to desperately grab his hand before he fell off or to stamp on his fingers until he fell would let me role-play my character, personalise my experience and immerse myself in the game, despite the fact that with either choice the NPC died.

David Gaider Brofisted this.

Fucking hell. I think the term was popularized by a Mass Effect review, right?

 

[Nael]

 

[Septaryeth]

I think I came up with an appropriate response.

The faggot responded twice:

I think your reply is unnecessarily rude honestly. The opposite of missing out on large parts of a games experience because a choice and consequence system that adds little else to the game isn’t being “tube fed” or not having any control. I was simply trying to have a dialogue about the downsides of consequence in a game and the potential for it to be tokenistic. I clearly haven’t criticised choice and consequence outright, or criticised anyone who does enjoy it.

PS: If you die in Mario you just never play the game again? You know you can restart the level right?

If you find people asking whether consequence in computer games is fundamentally a good thing “abhorrent” and feel the need to answer in a snarkey and impolite manner rather than having a polite debate then you should probably try to experience more of the world; it’ll give you some perspective and you might learn some manners along the way.

Typical internet debate strategy.
1. Pointing out the "immoral" attitude of your opponents.
2. Boasting your own socio-economic status.
3. Telling them to go out more, i.e. I can't find a valid argument to counter yours so I'm just going to tell you to shut up because you're hurting my self-esteem with your pointy hard words.

 

[baturinsky]

“On the biggest level,” Fargo continued, “there will be areas that will be completely different. Gone, destroyed. There’s not one just like it to make up for it. It’s just gone.”

You mean, like Megaton?​

 

[Metro]

Metro http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/201...l-about-making-choice-matter/#comment-1315548

A certain games youtuber by the name of TotalBiscuit backed this game to the point of getting an NPC with his likeness into the game. To his own admission with the thought of being able to get killed by all his haters. Rock on, sir. You understand the internet.

I bet you can't wait.

I will do my best to avoid said npc and pretend it doesn't exist.

 

[Absalom]

I will do my best to avoid said npc and pretend it doesn't exist.

Wow I guess LPing on youtube is bringing him the big bucks

 

[Haba]

Metro http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/201...l-about-making-choice-matter/#comment-1315548

A certain games youtuber by the name of TotalBiscuit backed this game to the point of getting an NPC with his likeness into the game. To his own admission with the thought of being able to get killed by all his haters. Rock on, sir. You understand the internet.

I bet you can't wait.

I will do my best to avoid said npc and pretend it doesn't exist.

If it is done sensibly, you won't probably even realize whose character it.

Imagine it, you meet this cool dude, become friends with him, go on adventures, fall in love, make out...

...then you google him up from the wiki and find out that it was actually TotalBiscuit.

 

[Whisky]

Metro http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/201...l-about-making-choice-matter/#comment-1315548

A certain games youtuber by the name of TotalBiscuit backed this game to the point of getting an NPC with his likeness into the game. To his own admission with the thought of being able to get killed by all his haters. Rock on, sir. You understand the internet.

I bet you can't wait.

Any game with killable internet celebrities can't be that bad...

Funny enough, when my friends found out I donated a significant amount to this Kickstarter, they actually came very close to all pitching in to increase my pledge so that I'd be in the game as someone they can kill. I like my friends.

 

[gromit]

just an example, a symbol of how far-reaching the reactivity

You will enslave nations with toaster repair.

 

[Metro]

I will do my best to avoid said npc and pretend it doesn't exist.

Wow I guess LPing on youtube is bringing him the big bucks

He easily makes over $100,000 a year.

 

[toro]

I'm not sure what to say. I like both of The Witcher's, and I think #2 overall has some pretty cool reactivity going on. I don't think of it as a guiding star for every other game aspiring to reactivity though, which is what the interviewer seems to feel.

That's what I was trying to say.

 

[toro]

Metro http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/201...l-about-making-choice-matter/#comment-1315548

A certain games youtuber by the name of TotalBiscuit backed this game to the point of getting an NPC with his likeness into the game. To his own admission with the thought of being able to get killed by all his haters. Rock on, sir. You understand the internet.

I bet you can't wait.

I will do my best to avoid said npc and pretend it doesn't exist.

Why not shoot on sight!?

 

[RK47]

Holy shit, the way Fargo explains it sounds amazing. You can kill anyone in the game as you please, which will have effects down the line, lock you out of certain content, etc. Or you can do things to completely cut off any possible access to certain areas.

In theory, the way he describes it sounds amazing. Being able to explore every single area of a game no matter what, especially in a CRPG, is kind of lame. Gives it a lot of replayability this way.

Shit already happens in New Vegas - and made a lot of players confused when the quest names start popping out to state the said quest FAILED.

 

[RK47]

I'm not sure what to say. I like both of The Witcher's, and I think #2 overall has some pretty cool reactivity going on. I don't think of it as a guiding star for every other game aspiring to reactivity though, which is what the interviewer seems to feel.

It's just too rough on the edges, couple that with the very lore-heavy setting - but yeah, I still like it all the same. Dodge roll may seem a bit much - but the whole narrative was an overall incline to the standard tropes.

 

[evdk]

Metro http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/201...l-about-making-choice-matter/#comment-1315548

A certain games youtuber by the name of TotalBiscuit backed this game to the point of getting an NPC with his likeness into the game. To his own admission with the thought of being able to get killed by all his haters. Rock on, sir. You understand the internet.

I bet you can't wait.

I will do my best to avoid said npc and pretend it doesn't exist.

Why not shoot on sight!?

That would mean playing along with his shitty publicity stunt.

 

[Duraframe300]

Holy shit, the way Fargo explains it sounds amazing. You can kill anyone in the game as you please, which will have effects down the line, lock you out of certain content, etc. Or you can do things to completely cut off any possible access to certain areas.

In theory, the way he describes it sounds amazing. Being able to explore every single area of a game no matter what, especially in a CRPG, is kind of lame. Gives it a lot of replayability this way.

Shit already happens in New Vegas - and made a lot of players confused when the quest names start popping out to state the said quest FAILED.

A lot of it sounds like New Vegas actually. Though they seem to go further.