Game News Wasteland 3 coming to Fig on October 5th, introducing two player co-op and cinematic conversations

[Black]

Mustard how much you're gonna donate

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

They only tell you about Fig Productions 1 and a rough estimate of how much money you can make. The only added more details after that video was released. People didn't even know about all the other companies and the fine print.

Well, no. They were in SEC filings. You know..the things that are there for investors to read? The things that the guy in the video is referring to?


I've said this before in the Fig thread that this is a perfect reason why the accredited investor category exists. There is a level of familiarity and sophistication (in terms of economics/business/financial matters) that an investor with a high net worth has (or can outsource) that some Joe Blow with $20 does not.


For example, do you think most nonaccredited investors are aware that they have zero voting rights? I bet you a lot of people would be surprised to hear that.

You have to be an idiot if you think giving potential investors vague details and promises and telling them to read the SEC filings to know how shit works is normal.

No man. This IS how investing works. Why do you think the SEC makes my company disclose all kinds of reports? Because an informed investor, someone who puts their money into a company, SHOULD be reading these.


Fairfax, if you're going to sign a contract, do you read the contract or do you just take the dude's word for it? No, you read the damn thing (if you want to keep your shirt). Reading the Fig website is the equivalent of just listening to the apartment sales guy alk you through your lease instead of you actually reading it.

No, the actual investors don't read all that shit. They'd probably read this WL3 offering memo (it's why this kind of memo exists in the first place). If the investment sounds interesting, they have an accountant see how it's structured and how the revenue would come, and then a lawyer would take a look at the agreements. No doubt they'd be aware of the risks involved and how they operate. I never disputed that.

However, the purpose of that video was to show how risky and how shady Fig is structured to people who don't have those resources, because Fig is selling shares to the average joe, not just the sharks.

Lifetime average sales of W2 is 30.81 usd based on this document. It also states what we always have known that Steam and Gog takes about 30% share.

 

[Bubbles]

I want true Fallout spiritual succesor no matter what.

You won't get it from Brian Fargo.

Indeed. One more quote for nostalgia's sake:

 

[Fairfax]

No, the actual investors don't read all that shit.

Please enlighten us from your vast amount of experience with investors and SEC filings.

You really think you're the only one here who's invested or works with investors?

To expect the average backer to read SEC filings, 3 agreements and a contract based on vague promises (with barely any liability) and "simplified" information is shady and disingenuous at best. If you can't see that, then you're exactly the kind of idiot they're targeting. Go for it.

 

[Mustawd]

a couple of the comments imply the company structure used to be more opaque and risky for small investors than it is now

I'm assuming you mean this comment?

Spoiler

If you’re an equity backer for Psychonauts 2, you don’t actually have equity in Psychonauts 2. You’re investing in Fig in return for special Fig shares whose dividends are capped at some fraction of the first few years’ profits from Psychonauts 2. No matter how well Fig as a whole does you won’t see a penny of that other income, but if Fig loses money or fails (for example, as the result of some other project going horribly wrong) that comes out of your returns. You’re basically reliant on both Fig as a whole and the specific game succeeding in order to get your money back.

The original structure was even worse, with backers investing in a game-specific subsidiary that was totally reliant on continued payments from the parent Fig – which wasn’t required to continue providing them and might not be able to – to stay in business because they were going to pay 100% of backer money to Double Fine immediately, failure of either meaning the backers didn’t have to be paid, none of the usual collateral or milestone payments that protect traditional publishers, and massive documents for investors filled with nasty phrases like "conflicts of interest between our Company, the Pub Subs, the Parent and the developer
and their respective directors, officers and managers which might not be resolved in your favor". Guess the FTC decided that was going too far.

The original structure gave you equity in an entity that profited based on the performance of each game. Essentially, if the game did well then the investor did well. The new structure is an investment directly in Fig. Which I find strange, but seems the SEC decided this type of crowdfunding will cause a lot of confusion among the nonaccredited ones, so the stop gap is having investment in the entity itself. I personally would expect the former structure rather than the latter. But the new structure gives you more investment in the platform as a whole it seems.

 

[Mustawd]

You really think you're the only one here who's invested or works with investors?

No. I just don't think you have.

And you are right that a lot of investors just throw money at stuff. Doesn't mean it's a good idea.


Hegel , do you read any of this gobbledegook stuff from the silly SEC?

 

[vortex]

You won't get it from Brian Fargo.

How from then? At least I want it to be better RPG than W2 is.

 

[Bubbles]

Tim Cain still seems to be trying.

 

[J_C]

To expect the average backer to read SEC filings, 3 agreements and a contract based on vague promises (with barely any liability) and "simplified" information is shady and disingenuous at best. If you can't see that, then you're exactly the kind of idiot they're targeting. Go for it.

I actually agree, the average backer won't read all of those, they will just read those few paragraphs on the FIG investor page. But how does this make Fig a shady structure? I see it as "moronic investors don't read their shit" instead of Fig fucking them over.

Tim Cain still seems to be trying.

How? Is there a secret project there somehow?

 

[Bubbles]

Tim Cain still seems to be trying.

How? Is there a secret project there somehow?

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/105387/page-238#post-4714129

 

[J_C]

Tim Cain still seems to be trying.

How? Is there a secret project there somehow?

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/105387/page-238#post-4714129

Oh Fuck!

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Jokes aside, what a stupid thing to say that is. The difference between Fargo approving and not approving the proposal, is the difference between Fallout existing and not existing. Everybody knows that in Interplay days Fargo had a penchant for backing weird shit that didn't make much financial sense, but that's exactly what made Fallout possible.

 

[toro]

I don't need no stinking analysis.

Fig debate is quite simple: Don't go near or touch anything involving Tim Schafer. Ever.

 

[Fairfax]

Essentially, if the game did well then the investor did well.

Truly a genius.

The new structure is an investment directly in Fig.

No, it's not. You're investing in the LLC created for the specific project.

To expect the average backer to read SEC filings, 3 agreements and a contract based on vague promises (with barely any liability) and "simplified" information is shady and disingenuous at best. If you can't see that, then you're exactly the kind of idiot they're targeting. Go for it.

I actually agree, the average backer won't read all of those, they will just read those few paragraphs on the FIG investor page. But how does this make Fig a shady structure? I see it as "moronic investors don't read their shit" instead of Fig fucking them over.

Again, I never said they're fucking people over. It's shady because all the important info is in legalese and the parties involved give investors very few warranties while not being liable for much, and some people involved may have a huge conflict of interest. They do mention that, but again, only in the fine print:

Our officers and our Director may have a conflict of interest or appear to have a conflict since our officers are also officers of our Parent and our Director is also a director of the Parent.

(Fargo is one of those)

They also don't have to deliver the game, or deliver it in a shape that resembles what's being promised in the campaign. And if they dont, you won't see a penny and nobody is held accountable unless there was misuse of funds or embezzlement.

There can be no assurance that the Developer will be able to successfully develop the Game.

There can be no assurance that the Developer will be able to develop the Gameon time or at all, or that the Game will function as intended once developed. Unanticipated problems, expenses and delays are often encountered in developing any game. If the Developer encounters any such problems, expenses or delays while developing the Game, it may not be able to successfully address them and stay on budget and on schedule. If the Developer cannot, our business and our ability to pay distributions to holders of Units could be negatively affected.

It's not a scam. It's just an extremely risky investment, and the way they share information is meant to take advantage of ill-informed backers, which is why I call it shady.

 

[Roguey]

$7m would be a p. nice budget for a semi-indiie game. But they'll probably blow most of it on liquor and whores console versions, VA and co-op.

It's not that much higher than what it cost to make Wasteland 2.

Though one expects same-engine sequels to cost less than than their predecessor, so this one will have all kinds of bells and whistles.

 

[Sentinel]

I don't need no stinking analysis.

Fig debate is quite simple: Don't go near or touch anything involving Tim Schafer. Ever.

Brian Fargo, Fergus and Tim Schafer managing a company. It's like they don't even want to stay afloat.

 

[Mustawd]

No, it's not. You're investing in the LLC created for the specific project.

No you're not.

Spoiler

Fig Game Shares – PSY2 are shares of capital stock of Fig with no voting rights, which are designed to reflect the economic performance of a particular video game co-publishing license agreement that we have entered into with a third-party video game developer, Double Fine Productions, Inc. (“Double Fine”).

An investment in our Fig Game Shares – PSY2 is not an investment in any game, game developer or license agreement

What you are describing is how it USED to be, and what the video is describing (which funny enough is already out of date):

Spoiler

This Regulation A offering is for shares of preferred tracking stock, par value $0.0001 per share (the “Grasslands Game Shares”) of Fig Publishing, Inc., a Delaware corporation (the “Company” or “we”). We are offering a maximum of 30,000 Grasslands Game Shares at $500.00 per share, on a best efforts basis. The offering is being conducted in support of the development of the Grasslands video game (“Grasslands”).

we intend to offer a separate series of preferred tracking stock for each of the games under development that we have been licensed. The shares of a particular series of preferred tracking stock (which we call our “Game Shares”) will track the economic performance of a particular publishing subsidiary of the Company (each a “Pub Sub”) which will hold the license to a particular game under development. The tracking will work as follows: when and if the game is developed and begins to sell, the Pub Sub will begin earning revenues from sales of the game. Those earnings will be used to cover certain expenses, and will thereafter be divided into a revenue share to be provided to the game developer and an amount to be distributed from the Pub Sub to the Company, and paid to holders of the associated Game Shares in the form of dividends on those Game Shares.


Each Pub Sub is expected to be a Delaware limited liability company and a wholly owned subsidiary of the Company. The Pub Sub will be formed specifically to serve as the entity to which the developer licenses rights in respect of the game to be developed. A license agreement between the Pub Sub and the developer will govern the support to be provided by the Pub Sub to the developer to finish the development of the game, the Pub Sub’s rights in the exploitation of the developed game, the revenues the Pub Sub will earn from such exploitation and the allocation of such revenues among expenses, the developer and the Pub Sub itself. The Game Shares will govern the rights of Game Shares holders to dividends, which would be paid by us, the Company, from the net earnings of the game that we receive from the Pub Sub, subject to the dividend policy of the Company.

They also don't have to deliver the game, or deliver it in a shape that resembles what's being promised in the campaign. And if they dont, you won't see a penny and nobody is held accountable unless there was misuse of funds or embezzlement.

Welcome to investing in PE.

These are speculative securities. Investing in them involves significant risks. You should invest in them only if you can afford a complete loss of your investment. See “Risk Factors” beginning on page 6.

It's not a scam. It's just an extremely risky investment, and the way they share information is meant to take advantage of ill-informed backers, which is why I call it shady.

No. All the information is out there. It's in plain English. If you decide to invest in Fig without:

A. Understanding how the company is structured and how that affects your investment and possible liquidation should the company fail
B. Understanding how to read financial statements
C. Understanding the risks of the videogaming industry

...then you are a fool for investing. Plain and simple.

I mean how can you not see that? We're not talking obfuscation here. We're talking normal day-to-day stuff in the world of investing.


You think their registration statements are legalese? Lol. Yah, ok. Try reading Google's 10-k. Holy crap guys! All these publicly traded companies are super shady because all the relevant info is in super complicated documents that I have zero idea how to read!!!


EDIT: For the record, my opinion is that non-accredited investor class is a mistake. These people have no idea of what they're doing, and if these investments don't pay off then they'll lose badly.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Jokes aside, what a stupid thing to say that is. The difference between Fargo approving and not approving the proposal, is the difference between Fallout existing and not existing.

Also, according to Fargo, he was the one to suggest perks, because otherwise it felt too boring for him.

He did have some input into the game.

I think he was still interested in games back then.

 

[Fairfax]

No, it's not. You're investing in the LLC created for the specific project.

No you're not.

Spoiler

Fig Game Shares – PSY2 are shares of capital stock of Fig with no voting rights, which are designed to reflect the economic performance of a particular video game co-publishing license agreement that we have entered into with a third-party video game developer, Double Fine Productions, Inc. (“Double Fine”).

An investment in our Fig Game Shares – PSY2 is not an investment in any game, game developer or license agreement

What you are describing is how it USED to be, and what the video is describing (which funny enough is already out of date):

Spoiler

This Regulation A offering is for shares of preferred tracking stock, par value $0.0001 per share (the “Grasslands Game Shares”) of Fig Publishing, Inc., a Delaware corporation (the “Company” or “we”). We are offering a maximum of 30,000 Grasslands Game Shares at $500.00 per share, on a best efforts basis. The offering is being conducted in support of the development of the Grasslands video game (“Grasslands”).

we intend to offer a separate series of preferred tracking stock for each of the games under development that we have been licensed. The shares of a particular series of preferred tracking stock (which we call our “Game Shares”) will track the economic performance of a particular publishing subsidiary of the Company (each a “Pub Sub”) which will hold the license to a particular game under development. The tracking will work as follows: when and if the game is developed and begins to sell, the Pub Sub will begin earning revenues from sales of the game. Those earnings will be used to cover certain expenses, and will thereafter be divided into a revenue share to be provided to the game developer and an amount to be distributed from the Pub Sub to the Company, and paid to holders of the associated Game Shares in the form of dividends on those Game Shares.


Each Pub Sub is expected to be a Delaware limited liability company and a wholly owned subsidiary of the Company. The Pub Sub will be formed specifically to serve as the entity to which the developer licenses rights in respect of the game to be developed. A license agreement between the Pub Sub and the developer will govern the support to be provided by the Pub Sub to the developer to finish the development of the game, the Pub Sub’s rights in the exploitation of the developed game, the revenues the Pub Sub will earn from such exploitation and the allocation of such revenues among expenses, the developer and the Pub Sub itself. The Game Shares will govern the rights of Game Shares holders to dividends, which would be paid by us, the Company, from the net earnings of the game that we receive from the Pub Sub, subject to the dividend policy of the Company.

I was talking about WL3. You're buying "Units of Fig WL3, LLC", see for yourself in the docs.

As for the rest, you're just repeating the same stuff. All of that is fine and dandy if you're talking about accredited investors (this kind of risk is exactly why there are strict requirements to be one), and I have no sympathy for those who give Fig a dime. However, they want normal backers to invest as well, and that changes everything.

 

[Mustawd]

You're buying "Units of Fig WL3, LLC", see for yourself in the docs.

Sauce? I genuinely haven't seen that.

However, they want normal backers to invest as well, and that changes everything.

Agree. But that's beside the point. They are doing their own thing that normal investors are familiar with, and are taking advantage of suckers like any salesman. It's different than shady.

I don't blame the car salesman for convincing me to buy a car too expensive for me. It's my own fault that I can't afford a Ferrari.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Yeah, I genuinely don't see why people have a problem with Fig. For starters, I doubt if Fig will take their Fig cut from InXile when Fargo is a board member. Kickstarter will take their 5% of pledges. That alone makes Fig better. And sure, the investors are suckers who will end up losing money, but remind me why would I care? More money for RPGs is better for us, and if some suckers end up losing money, I don't give a shit.

Like I said, I'm not backing it because I don't think its healthy to crowdfund 3 games having only released one, but that's another story. Fig is fine.

 

[Fairfax]

Sauce? I genuinely haven't seen that.

It's mentioned several times in the investor page.
"Security Units in Fig WL3 LLC"

And here are the "Investor Materials".

 

[Mustawd]

Sauce? I genuinely haven't seen that.

It's mentioned several times in the investor page.
"Security Units in Fig WL3 LLC"

And here are the "Investor Materials".

404 / GAME OVER
THIS PAGE DOESN'T EXIST.


Someone's been reading this thread.

 

[Fry]

Dude... you know anyone with two coins to rub together can open an account with a discount brokerage and buy shares on the public stock exchanges, right? Do you think most people who buy 100 shares of XYZ read company earnings reports and SEC filings?

I fail to see the difference, here.

 

[Fairfax]

Sauce? I genuinely haven't seen that.

It's mentioned several times in the investor page.
"Security Units in Fig WL3 LLC"

And here are the "Investor Materials".

404 / GAME OVER
THIS PAGE DOESN'T EXIST.


Someone's been reading this thread.

You have to be logged during this "campaign preview" to see it, I think.