What cau$ed the decline?

[Jedi Master Radek]

This is all kind of vague. Someone needs to put together a proper decline timeline. For example, which game was "patient zero" in terms of decline?

Oblivion (I feel bad for even writing this name....)

 

[Ziem]

Consoles and the Casual Gamer™

 

[valcik]

For example, which game was "patient zero" in terms of decline?

For me it's FOPOS. The amount of decline in this one is simply unprecedent! That makes Herve Caen one of the most dangerous agents of decline, I guess.

 

[Ninjerk]

This is all kind of vague. Someone needs to put together a proper decline timeline. For example, which game was "patient zero" in terms of decline?

Oblivion (I feel bad for even writing this name....)

Too late, the decline was well underway by that time. FF7 perhaps? It more-or-less sold the Playstation.

 

[Melan]

This is all kind of vague. Someone needs to put together a proper decline timeline. For example, which game was "patient zero" in terms of decline?

I don't remember the exact title, but someone here made a good case for an obscure mid-90s cyberpunk FPS that had QTEs, a two-weapon limit, regenerating health, super-linear gameplay and lots of cinematics.

 

[Trodat]

This is all kind of vague. Someone needs to put together a proper decline timeline. For example, which game was "patient zero" in terms of decline?

Oblivion (I feel bad for even writing this name....)

Too late, the decline was well underway by that time. FF7 perhaps? It more-or-less sold the Playstation.

Playstation still knew it's place and didn't try to interfere with the PC. For example, 2002 was still a great year for PC gaming - Morrowind, Gothic 2 and other non-rpg's like Warcraft 3.

 

[Xenich]

I want to say Diablo, or near around that time. There might be better examples earlier, this is just from a quick memory, but it spurred a huge interest into PC gaming by the console market and set the tone for what people were led to believe what an RPG was. I worked in a software store back then and this was about the time that genre labeling was starting to get... well... vague as all of a sudden, everything was termed an RPG rather than designated its hybrid classification. This is where we started to see a lot of console gamers crossing over to play PC games. I remember several guys coming into the store asking me how to build a computer (I also worked at a computer store at the time). So, if I had to guess based on my experience of the time, I would have to say it was ultimately the attitude of console gamers having a major effect on the PC industry and so the homogenization of gaming styles began.

This is all kind of vague. Someone needs to put together a proper decline timeline. For example, which game was "patient zero" in terms of decline?

Oblivion (I feel bad for even writing this name....)

Too late, the decline was well underway by that time. FF7 perhaps? It more-or-less sold the Playstation.

I would say roughly around that time, but even during the PS1 release, console and PC gamers were pretty segregated in style and design. We say ports from time to time with the occasional Square FF game over to PC and of course all the old school PC games were ported over to the older consoles, though by PS1, it was more uncommon to see PC title on PS due to their design focus and limitations of interface.

This is all kind of vague. Someone needs to put together a proper decline timeline. For example, which game was "patient zero" in terms of decline?

Oblivion (I feel bad for even writing this name....)

Too late, the decline was well underway by that time. FF7 perhaps? It more-or-less sold the Playstation.

Playstation still knew it's place and didn't try to interfere with the PC. For example, 2002 was still a great year for PC gaming - Morrowind, Gothic 2 and other non-rpg's like Warcraft 3.

Yeah, but that was near around the time that console gamers began to pick up computers due to the success of some PC games that had console like appeal (action based diablo and the like). While there was still some division, I think this is where the console fan started to infect PC gaming. Also keep in mind that 2001 was the release date for Baldur's gate Dark Alliance which was the attempt to bring the popularity of BG to the console. It was the converging of PC and console that ultimately destroyed PC gaming in my opinion.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

70% of the population is manipulated and told what they want to buy. Mainstream anything is a cesspool of shit for lemmings with wallets. Follow the money and find the proliferation of decline for everything around us not just RPGs.

 

[Kattze]

Apologies if this subject has been done to death, but I realize that while it's generally accepted that cRPGs (and, arguably, gaming as a whole) went into a decline starting in the early 2000s, I don't have a very firm understanding of what caused it to happen and what is ultimately driving the recent promise of a turnaround.

One thing in particular that jumps out at me regarding the Kickstarter renaissance is the recurring theme of once-bright devs being stuck in casual/mobile/MMO hell and finally reaching to Kickstarter as a means to escape and return to their passion projects. The problem is that I'm just not really sure if that narrative, which I've seen pop up time and again, is ultimately true and, if so, what fundamental shifts in the marketplace would have led them to being stuck for so long in exile.

A commonly cited culprit would be the encroachment of consoles, but while I don't dispute the influence there I don't quite understand the hows and why of it. Why did the console-ization of the market begin to set in about a decade ago as opposed to any other time? Part of the decline is surely due to the collapse of developing groups like Troika, Looking Glass and Interplay, but is this connected to the same market forces that led to the general trend of console-ization or an entirely separate set of catastrophes? Is there any connection with the peculiar coincidence that, during all of this, Piranha Bytes also managed to squeeze out a couple of classic games before receding into irrelevance despite remaining whole as a company?

The best guess I can come up with, and this is flimsy at best, is that while gaming grew as an industry, the size of the pie occupied by consoles grew to such an extent that the big publishers all turned in that direction as their primary focus, leaving the PC market, already withered due to the mid-2000s rise of torrents, as an afterthought. A number of once-bright PC devs, who had grown accustomed to making games for the PC, simply couldn't quite adjust to language of games demanded by consoles and so therefore their output suffered (Epic Mickey being a good example of this). During this period, it became difficult for PC-focused devs to attract any publisher's attention towards any PC focused products, until Kickstarter came along and demonstrated that there was an untapped market there still willing to pay for quality titles.

That's the best I can come up with based on my own very limited understanding and I'll be the first to admit it's probably significantly flawed. Is there a standard narrative behind this or are we all still grasping at straws?

* The rise of 3D in the mid 90s led to the rise of FP shooters, which had been made popular by Doom. Combined with the internet, games like Quake and Unreal began drawing in a ton of gamers. LAN parties also offered a great way to socialize and spend the time, as the internet started improving in speed and power, LAN parties became obsolete since you could play from your home with anyone in the world. There was a lull in RPG development at this time, the ones released in early 3d were terrible. The release of Diablo marked the start of the Action RPG genre which took a significant developer size and RPG market with it permanently.
* Ultima Online released slightly earlier/around this time and started making some more headway as internet become more popular. Developers and traditional RPG and FPS fans laughed at the simplistic 2D graphics and basic gameplay, wondering if Gariott had lost his mind and declared MMORPG gaming, as Gariott had termed it, would soon burn and die. Blizzard Entertainment strangely enough did not join the chorus of mocking-jays but instead started taking notes about UO.
* Games like Baldurs Gate and Fallout released to much acclaim, proving the traditional RPG market still had teeth. People claimed the great RPG revival had finally returned.
* Black Isle develops a schism, with people leaving and forming Troika. BI beings working on Icewind Dale and Black Isle's Torn to much anticipation and acclaim, while Troika announces Arcanum.
* Counterstrike reveals the massive potential of the multiplayer FPS market. Things start changing very quickly
* Xbox announced with Bill Gates promise to fund it for 5 years even if it made a loss. Bioware and Bethesda immediately jumped ship. Dragon Age Origins development was put onto the back burner for KOTOR's development, as with the sub par Neverwinter Nights and the Starwars Prequel being released at this time Bioware docs saw an oppertunity to enter the 'mainstream' and fulfill their dreams of one day retiring to make documentaries on beer.
*Black Isle self destructs. Troika releases a massive demo of Arcanum and we start realizing the hype train had been way overblown on this one. Someone finds a way to get out of Shrouded Hills in the demo and start exploring Tarant, which was not supposed to happen. Tim Cain throws a fit.
*Vogel releases Avernum, which ends up being a remake of Exile. People wonder if he is insane.
*Arcanum released after massive delays. Most things about the game are outdated; it only sells 234,000 copies and remains to this day Troika's best selling game. Troika starts having financial difficulties, but manage to hang on for a few more years.
*2D gaming dies along with Turn Based RPG gaming.

*Rpgcodex.net founded in 2002 to mark the end of the Golden Age of RPGs™ and document the coming decline. It's all been downhill ever since. Kickstarter will get a massive backlash when Shitters of Shiternity is released.

 

[Kem0sabe]

 

[Jaesun]

This is all kind of vague. Someone needs to put together a proper decline timeline. For example, which game was "patient zero" in terms of decline?

Morrowind (I feel bad for even writing this name....)

Fixed that for you.

 

[Broseph]

Proper answer is actually BG2 because romances.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

it only sells 234,000 copies and remains to this day Troika's best selling game

I refuse to believe ToEE and VtMB didn't sell more than that.
Infinitron What do your numbers say

 

[Gregz]

Big factors that were emerging in the late 90s early 00s:

• Microsoft vs. Sony (Xbox vs. PlayStation console wars)
  
• BitTorrent (PC games piracy)
  
• MMORPGs (infinite character progression and social cooperation/interaction, also online shooters like Counter-Strike take off)
  
• Fast internet connections (accelerated the acceptance and interest in all of the above)
• Increased graphics/3D capability puts extreme pressure on art departments and programmers, requiring more assets, bigger budgets, and larger production studios to compete. Less studios could afford to enter that market leaving only the AAAs left standing, resulting in fewer games, less competition, and pandering to the lowest common denominator for market share.

 

[zero29]

well, what exactly is a rpg the decline?

 

[Telengard]

it only sells 234,000 copies and remains to this day Troika's best selling game

I refuse to believe ToEE and VtMB didn't sell more than that.
Infinitron What do your numbers say

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/troika-games-sales-figures.6612/

 

[Davaris]

For indie gamedevs, we're now even entering the times where there are professional assets with CC0 and CC-BY licenses, and there's going to be more and more of those. For instance, very detailed meshes of hands, skulls, bodies, zbrush brushes, etc. Sites like blendswap are only the beginning of those times.

Getting art from random sources makes the game look like shit.

Also, LOL @ people blaming playstation and xbox and pretending nintendo and sega were not retard-friendly devices carrying retard entertainment.

Yep. A better question for me is, why did PC gaming take off in the first place?

 

[Bester]

Getting art from random sources makes the game look like shit.

Look, if you don't have any sense of taste in order to understand what elements from different sources to combine, then you probably can't buy stuff in different furniture shops because you're probably convinced it will make your house look like shit. In this case you have a problem.

 

[Kattze]

it only sells 234,000 copies and remains to this day Troika's best selling game

I refuse to believe ToEE and VtMB didn't sell more than that.

That's a legitimate and interesting line of thinking. Arcanum was license free, or at least that Sierra owned the IP so it was free for Troika as Sierra was their publisher. ToEE and Bloodlines were both licensed, but their fanbases and brand should have more than made up for it. D&D and VTM obviously. I really have no idea what happened. If I had to hazard a guess I would say insufficient advertising combined with negative reviews due to massive bugs in both products as well as Troika's poor reputation at that point; Arcanum sold ok at the time and got good reviews, but many that played it didn't like it much. I believe most people gave up at Tarant. It's sad, because Arcanum had a lot of potential, though considering that Troika was next planning to make it's sequel a FPS...

 

[Davaris]

Getting art from random sources makes the game look like shit.

Look, if you don't have any sense of taste in order to understand what elements from different sources to combine, then you probably can't buy stuff in different furniture shops because you're probably convinced it will make your house look like shit. In this case you have a problem.

Show us how its done.

 

[Xenich]

Also, LOL @ people blaming playstation and xbox and pretending nintendo and sega were not retard-friendly devices carrying retard entertainment.

Well, take a lot at the games from Nintendo and Sega during those days. The 8-bit Nintendo had many of the early RPGs ranging from Wizardry, Ultima, Gold Box series, wide range of blobers, etc... Sega was a bit weaker in that selection, but they were always a bit light in the Western RPG area. Even 16-bit carried that trend on, though admittedly it was less in the numbers as the 8-bit days. Now a lot of those PC game ports were pretty weak, but... they existed and the idea of a "console" mentality didn't really start to become apparent until I would say... maybe.. 32-64 bit? That is when you saw fewer and fewer PC style games on the consoles as it was with the 8 and 16 bit. The 64 bit games were obvious. This is where Nintendo pretty much threw out most RPGs and became the kiddie console game system. Playstation began that trend as well. PC style of development was all but gone. Console focus and design was king. Honestly, much of the early console days were simply put... "Arcade" systems trying to bring the 70s/80s arcade joints to the home living room. Atari, Colecovision, intellivision, etc... all "arcade" systems in truth.

That very distinct "Console" mentality I didn't notice until later on, during the PS and on days. That is when games started to be "marketed" with that mentality.

 

[Cadmus]

Jesus, those Troika sales numbers are ridiculously low, considering Bloodlines alone was about 30 times better than Skyrim which has sold 20m.
Is there any account of the troika games sold till now that they are actually considered classics?

 

[Bester]

Getting art from random sources makes the game look like shit.

Look, if you don't have any sense of taste in order to understand what elements from different sources to combine, then you probably can't buy stuff in different furniture shops because you're probably convinced it will make your house look like shit. In this case you have a problem.

Show us how its done.

Look at any game, 99% games use "different sources" aka different people.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

it only sells 234,000 copies and remains to this day Troika's best selling game

I refuse to believe ToEE and VtMB didn't sell more than that.

That's a legitimate and interesting line of thinking. Arcanum was license free, or at least that Sierra owned the IP so it was free for Troika as Sierra was their publisher. ToEE and Bloodlines were both licensed, but their fanbases and brand should have more than made up for it. D&D and VTM obviously. I really have no idea what happened. If I had to hazard a guess I would say insufficient advertising combined with negative reviews due to massive bugs in both products as well as Troika's poor reputation at that point; Arcanum sold ok at the time and got good reviews, but many that played it didn't like it much. I believe most people gave up at Tarant. It's sad, because Arcanum had a lot of potential, though considering that Troika was next planning to make it's sequel a FPS...

I dunno where these sales numbers are from, but I seem to remember reading that ToEE was their best selling game (eventually, over time). Perhaps I'm remembering this wrong though.

 

[tuluse]

Jesus, those Troika sales numbers are ridiculously low, considering Bloodlines alone was about 30 times better than Skyrim which has sold 20m.
Is there any account of the troika games sold till now that they are actually considered classics?

Bloodlines had multiple game breaking bugs in it. Most people would consider a game you can actually finish to be better than one you can't.

There is no word on Bloodlines, but for Arcanum and ToEE you can look at this all time best selling: http://www.gog.com/games##sort=bestselling&page=1?as=1649904300

Witcher 2 sold a minimum of 40k copies on Gog, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Witcher_2:_Assassins_of_Kings#Sales. So ToEE is somewhere north of 40k and Arcanum somewhere south. Exact numbers unknown, but since they're all listed so close I can't imagine there are large differences. Also, it's pretty much guaranteed that W2 is more than 40k now.