Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

What do you think about AoD?

Rate AoD

  • Good

    Votes: 123 58.3%
  • Bad

    Votes: 10 4.7%
  • Meh

    Votes: 78 37.0%

  • Total voters
    211

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
24,093
Bro, stop watching weaboo garbage and pick up some English tutorials. I have to read your every Google Translate enhanced post 3 times to understand what you're trying to say.

Krater is a horrible game, that you would use it as an example is just retarded, no matter how well the trees are done(?!). Who gives a fuck about the trees, when the combat is a generic, broken mess?! Graphics and other cosmetic shit are least of AoD's problems. Stop harping on insignificant, superficial stuff, that isn't going to make the game better.
mvg554.jpg


Some people have problem with criticism.

So your problem was combat, and only combat. Why didn't say so? Wait, I used Krater as an example of features AoD doesn't have.

Superficial stuff? Well it reminds me I didn't finish Avadon. Are GFX, textures, colors, trees, grass really superficial? I suspect Krater's developers were not able to create faces if theirs life would depend on it. But they were creative, and they were able to do all other GFX stuff well. Yes GFX can be of lesser importance, but Dwarven Fortress is free and much better that what I seen in first public demo.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
I don't mind the teleporting. It was very annoying the first time I played the demo because I felt I was missing on exploring the city as the game forced me from one place to the other but then I realized there isn't much to explore, so it just saves time you'd spent walking from A to B.

Biggest problem is that when the game starts teleporting you from place to place you have no idea what's going on. Where the fuck did it take me? How do I get back here later? And so on.
 

Marsal

Arcane
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
1,304
Some people have problem with criticism.

So your problem was combat, and only combat. Why didn't say so? Wait, I used Krater as an example of features AoD doesn't have.

Superficial stuff? Well it reminds me I didn't finish Avadon. Are GFX, textures, colors, trees, grass really superficial? I suspect Krater's developers were not able to create faces if theirs life would depend on it. But they were creative, and they were able to do all other GFX stuff well.
I don't even... You're not even trolling, are you?

Yes, graphics really are superficial, you niggerfaggot. Combat, character system, lack of player agency... everything is more important than graphics (especially since AoD has decent graphics already). Now, stop muddying the water and STFU about Krater already.

Yes GFX can be of lesser importance, but Dwarven Fortress is free and much better that what I seen in first public demo.
It's "Dwarf Fortress" and you need to get some glasses.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
Patron
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
28,396
Location
Not Here
Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
Stance still hasn't changed after playing multi-revisions of the demo: :hero:
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Yeah, he just can't get entirely out of the snake oil salesman role

Latest is "it's a rogue-like" which is just hilarious. Never mind that the speed doesn't even get close to a rogue-like, it also misses the randomization. But yeah, it's totally like a rogue-like. And like chess too.
 

visions

Arcane
Joined
Jun 10, 2007
Messages
1,801
Location
here
Biggest problem is that when the game starts teleporting you from place to place you have no idea what's going on. Where the fuck did it take me? How do I get back here later?

/By teleporting:troll:

Disclaimer: I haven't really played the demo yet, so I have nothing of value to say.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
Yeah, he just can't get entirely out of the snake oil salesman role...
Why would I lie? If I say "yeah, you've got me, guys, it's the scripting", would everyone go "ah, ok, we like it now"?

We decided to go with teleporting before we've even switched to Torque and we did it for one simple reason - to speed things up.

...but more important you have to be open to criticism or it never improves.
You didn't see the changelog of R2: Brought to you by constructive criticism?

Starting with no party. He should have stopped and thought "turn-based melee only game with no party. WTF was I thinking?" 7 years ago when people complained.
It's not a combat game.
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
It's not a combat game.

I'm afraid it is (or rather: it can be played as one), combat is an important part of the game. So much that you have basically two games, the combat game and the CYOA game.
I'd still like to see hybrid characters be more viable. But that might happen automatically when you gain more skillpoints.

About teleporting:
After I played a bit more with the second Teron demo version, I got the impression that the instances of auto-teleporting are already less than before?
At least I got asked quite often if I'd like to teleport or just leave. Leaving usually gave me the possibility to walk there on my own, doing whatever I pleased along the way.
However I never cared too much about the whole teleport thing in the first place. I'm not thinking it's the best thing since sliced bread, as it makes the game feel oddly disconnected at times, but I don't consider it a no-go either. It's certainly convenient.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
99,669
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Latest is "it's a rogue-like" which is just hilarious. Never mind that the speed doesn't even get close to a rogue-like, it also misses the randomization. But yeah, it's totally like a rogue-like. And like chess too.

He never even said the word "roguelike" until somebody on the Codex explicitly made that comparison. Now suddenly it's a core design decision made from the very beginning.
 

zeitgeist

Magister
Joined
Aug 12, 2010
Messages
1,444
It's not a combat game.
Why does it even have interactive combat then? Why not just let the player pick some stats at the start, watch cutscenes, pick some more stats, watch some more cutscenes, and repeat this until it's over. It is the ultimate evolutionary phase of this game concept, is it not?
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
Patron
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
28,396
Location
Not Here
Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
Why does it even have interactive combat then? Why not just let the player pick some stats at the start, watch cutscenes, pick some more stats, watch some more cutscenes, and repeat this until it's over. It is the ultimate evolutionary phase of this game concept, is it not?

I think they want ppl to suffer the effect of C&C in combat. Like...oh you've picked the wrong choice...now we'll have a Combat Check - See if you can beat this one and we'll let you continue. If not, well, you're dead.
If someone is more successful checks, they can have an easier combat encounter or ... avoid it altogether. Yes, I can understand the feeling of satisfaction when I can outsmart an opponent through wit or other less direct means, but when the choice is so obviously labelled and the check is mostly binary - I really can't be amazed at all. I'm just clicking on (Intimidate) all the time without much thought, cause I've pumped on Intimidate, so why shouldn't I use it? Etc.

I might nitpick too much on those kind of things, but like I said before and I still stand by it: It's not my kind of game, and the devs have no intention of changing it. So IMO: :hero:
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
I'm afraid it is (or rather: it can be played as one), combat is an important part of the game.
It is, but the focus isn't on combat.

About teleporting:
After I played a bit more with the second Teron demo version, I got the impression that the instances of auto-teleporting are already less than before?
Yes. We reduced it significantly in R2.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
99,669
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
but when the choice is so obviously labelled and the check is mostly binary - I really can't be amazed at all. I'm just clicking on (Intimidate) all the time without much thought, cause I've pumped on Intimidate, so why shouldn't I use it? Etc.

Again, weren't the tags removed? In that case, they have changed it.

EDIT: Here http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2576.0.html

We're removing the tags; I believe they contributed to “metagaming” a lot.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
99,669
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Yeah, that was my issue with TOEE dialog, aside from the general lack of it. Those skill labels were just game ruining.

And I really think the whole idea of C&C working like that is just wrong, too.

There's two things people care about with C&C.

First is that it makes the world seem more realistic. I CAN do the illogical thing, try to kill lord british, whatever. And the world reacts to me in a sensible manner, recognizes my sex and past accomplishments or misdeeds. That's the main thing.

The other thing is the choose your own adventure aspect which is general light even in games like fallout. Join! Die! Join! Die! The thing about this part is that if you don't give a flying fuck about the thing you are choosing it's pointless. I've "chosen" to get past this dialog using intimidate again, the only dialog option that ever works. Huzzah! Unfortunately VD obsessed on this CYOA portion which is not very practical way to make a game, and when it's done by anyone but a truly superb writer it becomes even more pointless. And when it's that way over mundane situations over and over, well, it's a complete waste of time.

Bingo. As I've said more than once, the Codex has fetishized the CYOA aspect of C&C for years, at the expense of a more holistic definition of "choices and consequences" and world reactivity - and Age of Decadence is the result.

However, since I still like the game, I propose a fourth survey option - "Good for what it is". :smug:
 

made

Arcane
Joined
Dec 18, 2006
Messages
5,131
Location
Germany
Coming soon, Teleporting: The RPG

"We want Portal 2's audience!" - Vault Dweller
 
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
4,641
Strap Yourselves In Codex+ Now Streaming!
I'm not sure anymore if it's even possible to make a good game using dialogue skills and non-violent gameplay as a core design element. See, on the codex you could always read that Fallout provided three different character types, fighter, diplomat, thief - and each of those would offer a unique path through the game and gameplay experience. But that's basically bullshit.

Let's ignore the Thief archetype here (because everyone knows how underdeveloped thieving and stealth elements in Fallout were) and concentrate on the diplomat vs. fighter dilemma. At least for me both Fallout 1 and 2 never promoted this exclusive style of playing, where you need to choose between being a strict talker or a fighter.
I played through both games as a diplomat many times, but every time my diplomatic character has been some kind of hybrid - i.e. a somewhat weaker, but still capable fighter who as a tradeoff could use his silver tongue in different situations to make life easier for himself (I'm using the fallouts as an example, but it was really the same for me in Arcanum, even more so in PS:T, Mask of the Betrayer etc.). Sure, at least in Fallout 1 technically you could finish the game without killing anyone - but the completely non-violent path seemed always more of a cool gimmick to me ("wow, how amazing that somebody actually thought about implementing that!").

See, I love non-violent solutions, alternative paths, using dialogue skills etc. I don't agree with people who say that this is not gameplay. Discovering alternative solutions, finding out about the different possibilities the game world offers you not only gives your game a sense of freedom and player-choice, makes the world more reactive, detailed and charming, but it is also a genuinely fun element from a gamist perspective.

However, it is one thing to add those little details, options, secrets and non-violent possibilities to your game and let the player discover them. It is something entirely different to choose non-violent gameplay as your core element and design your entire game around it. The non-violent elements stop being cool extra options that the player has to discover by being perceptive or experimenting with different character builds in the game. Instead, the become a key gameplay element and in this process they become a boring and little engaging CYOA. The joy of discovering those options is gone, because they are presented to you on a silver-table. Once you take those elements for granted (because they have become a core element and not something that has been added on top of the combat-gameplay) they lose all their appeal.

That's why I never got the Codex bitching about Bloodlines. OH NOES YOU CAN'T FINISH THE GAME WITH A DIPLOMATIC CHARACTER! Well guess what, who the fuck cares? You can create a combat-capable character that with a few tradeoffs to his fighting abilities can make full use of all the diplomatic skills the game offers.

For me, the choice in Fallout, Arcanum, Mask of the Betrayer or Bloodlines was never about playing a diplomat or a fighter. Rather, it was a choice between playing a fully-fledged super strong fighter or playing a hybrid, ie. a much weaker fighter (who could still hold his ground in combat though) who has access to interesting extra options during the game.

I feel that denying the player option to be a hybrid and forcing him to choose exclusively between being a pure fighter and a pure diplomatic character is disastrous for gameplay. Because let’s face it, clicking through dialogue options and using your [intimidate] [persuade] etc. skills JUST ISN'T THAT MUCH FUN from a gameplay perspective. Without more or less regular combat encounters to balance them out these options become boring pretty fast.

The codex obsession with so called C and C and exclusive and radically different gameplay paths for different character archetypes (diplomat, fighter, thief) has been unhealthy from the start. No existing game ever fulfilled these criteria, neither Fallout nor Arcanum. AoD is the product of this unhealthy obsession and the ultimate proof how misguided it was.

I will still buy the game propably because I want to reward the hard work and courage that VD and his team have shown, and judging from the demo there is still a lot of stuff I like about the game. But I don’t feel this is the direction in which RPGs should be heading.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom