What do you think about BG2?

[LittleJoe]

/thread
Awesome xD, best game evar.

 

[Longshanks]

Hell, I'd like examples of BG2's terrible innovations.

Not necessarily innovations, but aspects that took the genre in a bad direction, or at least were continued with in later Bioware games (even further simplified and poorly executed): teen-level romance options, boring banter with cliched 2-dimensional companions, fake choices, weak consequences, combat as almost only answer to problems, focus on emotional companions and linear story rather than roleplaying, many would also add RTWP combat.

 

[Drog Black Tooth]

OK, here's an example of Arcanum's writing.

In your adventures you stumble upon an ancient temple. There you find a crumbling skeleton that can barely speak, he begs you to help him, to find a potion that might restore him. However, once you find the potion and pour it on the skeleton...

-Ahhhhh!!!! Yes!!!! My flesh is restored!!! [The man before you laughs, ominously.] I'd forgotten the pleasures, the feelings, the rush of blood running through my veins. It's ecstasy...!
-Who are you?
-[He looks at you, surprised, as if he's forgotten that you were there.] Me? I am Torian Kel, Warlord in the Gray Legions of the Derian-Ka. [He looks around, at both you and the surrounding temple.] How many years has it been...? All of this, and you...so unfamiliar...
-I don't know...how long were you like that?
-I...I don't know. I was a warrior, raised from the grave to serve in the undead legions of the Derian-Ka. We fought a great battle with the...what was it?...So many years ago, and I am all that is left...[A great sorrow passes over his features.] Alone, so alone...
-Torian Kel...I have many questions. Might you answer them?
-[The warrior shakes himself, turning to you.] Forgive me. I owe you a debt of gratitude. [He holds an arm over his breast, bowing slightly.] What question did you have?
-I had some questions about the Derian-Ka...
-What would you like to know about the Derian-Ka?
-Who were they?
-The Derian-Ka was the ancient Order of the Dead, formed by the disciples of the great necromancer, Kerghan, in the years following his banishment. They were a secret society, unknown for years, who practiced the arts of Dark Necromancy...
-Why was it so secret? What were they doing?
-Perhaps things are different now, but the practice of the dark necromantic arts was forbidden for many years. The Derian-Ka lived among the shadows for centuries, wielding their dark magicks behind locked doors, uncovering the secrets of the spirit worlds...soul-poisons, the raising of the undead [He points to himself.], speaking with spirits beyond the grave...
-What happened to them?
-There was a great schism in the Order. Within the Derian-Ka were an order of assassins. They were called the Molochean Hand, and for centuries they were the silent weapon of the Derian-Ka, a deadly defense against the world and its prejudices. But one day the Hand turned against the Order, and there was war between them...
-And so? What caused the schism...?
-I never knew what happened to cause that rift. But because of it, the Gray Legions were raised...
-What were the Gray Legions?
-The Gray Legions were a great army of the undead, raised by the Derian-Ka as protection against the Molochean Hand. Our sole purpose was to eradicate all traces of the Hand, so that the Order could continue...
-You spoke of a great battle?
**Download the VO for the following lines. (1.15 Mb)**
-[Torian Kel seems lost in thought, his eyes somewhere far away.] 10,000 strong we were, fearless and of one mind. Standing upon that battle-field, the darkened sky reflected in our black, burnished Dread-Armor...the stamping cavalry on their Shadow Stallions behind the endless rows of the stone-faced pikemen. It was cold, but we had no breath...the air was so still...
...
The Hand? Yes, the Hand...[A look of pain, regret.] The Hand were the greatest warriors of their time. Quick, deadly, precise. They stood across from us, on the opposite ridge. Lightly armored, faces masked...their archers armed with Elven Great Bows, almost as tall as they were. [His voice is a whisper.] And fire, stranger, so much fire...
...
Oh yes...there was a battle the likes of which Arcanum had never seen, perhaps will never see again. The Hand threw themselves against us, we without death, time and time again. They severed the arm that held the sword, burned the body which held the arm, destroyed the souls within those bodies...the Hand, you see, were themselves not unlearned in the ways of magick...
...
Yes...the Gray Legions fell on that day, but so did many of the Molochean Hand. A few soldiers from both armies stumbled off the battlefield, and were lost to history. The Derian-Ka were never heard from again...
...
As I said, there were a few Gray Legionnaires who survived. Because we were undead, we walked Arcanum for centuries, trying to stay hidden from the eyes of man. But the flesh, even the flesh of the undead, cannot last forever. Little by little, year by year, our earthly shells decayed...
...
Yes...and I was fortunate. Do you see the piles of dust scattered here and there? Those are the last remains of my companions. Dead, but not dead...you see, their souls are still trapped here on this plane. Forever tied to their earthly remains. A curse...a cruel, cruel curse...
...
There is nothing I can do. The Dragon's Blood pool can restore the flesh, but even it has its limits. Nothing will ever raise my comrades from the dust. They will live on...without voice, without dreams, without vision...

 

[nomask7]

Hell, I'd like examples of BG2's terrible innovations.

It's the same list as the list of innovations. It may be possible to build something pretty good around them, at least it's possible if the spirit eater system in MotB was somehow inspired by the crude Slayer/Hero duality in BG2 (it probably wasn't), but that doesn't redeem them. It's possible to build something decent around them the same way it's possible to grow carrots in horse shit. BG2 never managed that feat, however. If you think BG2 and MotB have a relation, it's the same relation that's between Beethoven's Diabelli Variations, a staggering masterpiece of unprecedented ambition and achievement, and Diabelli's original theme, something which Beethoven concisely identified as "crap".

 

[Black]

Seriously overrated.
I can't believe there are people out there who really think that BG2 is a better RPG than Arcanum or Fallout.
God damn idiots.

 

[Qwinn]

Drog:

That is indeed an example of good writing for Arcanum, and I never said the writing was bad. In fact, I remember saying that the story and the setting were quite good. You've apparently misunderstood my complaint here. Look through that dialogue for anything decent in terms of what -you-, as the protagonist, say. There is none. Some of the NPC's you meet during the game do indeed have good writing (another example is the dialogue of the guy on that island who was an exiled prince. I enjoyed it anyway).

But that's not what I'm criticizing. I'm complaining about the writing for the -protagonist-. When do you, as the protagonist, ever get to say something even remotely witty or with any sort of personality? I don't remember much. Again, maybe there's some in the last third of the game, but I kinda hoped I'd have found some such content somewhere in all the dozens of quests in Tarant, for example.

As someone else mentioned, most dialogues I encountered after doing pretty much every side quest available before Qintarra, you could pretty much just ask questions (as in the dialogue you chose), or giving an unreasonably hostile response that usually led to combat, or "Bye". The writing for the -protagonist-, the writing that enables actual -roleplay-, was pretty bland and robotic and simply did not have the depth that the protagonist in BG2 can have.

Hopefully you'll understand what it is I'm actually talking about now.

Qwinn

P.S. Looking back, I can understand why you interpreted my complaint the way you did, as I was criticizing the total lack of content for a great number of the NPC's that can join you. And I still think that's a valid complaint - you apparently don't mind that people risk their lives for you repeatedly with no real explanation for their allegiance, and that's fine. It really is pretty much a combination of these two things. Between only a small handful of potential party members with -any- personality, and almost all dialogue seeming to be exposition instead of interaction, I just don't really think there was much "roleplay" in the game. Doesn't mean it didn't have other strong points. At least some of the expositions were good reads.

 

[Qwinn]

If you think BG2 and MotB have a relation, it's the same relation that's between Beethoven's Diabelli Variations, a staggering masterpiece of unprecedented ambition and achievement, and Diabelli's original theme, something which Beethoven concisely identified as "crap".

Yes, in light of such tepid praise, I can totally understand your extreme screaming butthurt outrage when I suggested that you were holding up MotB as a standard for creative writing.

Qwinn

 

[Vault Dweller]

Between only a small handful of potential party members with -any- personality, and almost all dialogue seeming to be exposition instead of interaction, I just don't really think there was much "roleplay" in [Arcanum].

The mind boggles.

 

[Qwinn]

Okay. An example. First dialogue in the game. Playing a dwarf, first conversation with Virgil, the whole "I am a dwarf! I am outraged that you would think I would be a reincarnation of some elf!" -That- felt to me to be terribly cliche and unoriginal. I don't have the text for it, but the lines were just... bleah.

In BG2, I felt I was much more often given responses that I -wanted- my character to say. Ones that fit the personality I envisioned for him. "Gasp! I am a dwarf! I am outraged that you think I could be the reincarnation of an ELF!" is not the height of creativity.

Qwinn

 

[Hamster]

Seriously overrated.
I can't believe there are people out there who really think that BG2 is a better RPG than Arcanum or Fallout.

Better RPG than Fallout? No. Better game overall? Hell, yes!

 

[Qwinn]

Note that there were exceptions. I thought the dialogue with the bandits guarding the bridge out of that first town (Shadow Hills, was it?) was well done in terms of options for the protagonist. But there weren't that many like that, at least in what I played through.

I will add this amendment. I thought the writing for evil options was considerably better than that available for playing a good character. If someone likes playing evil, I could see why they'd like it. I personally don't enjoy playing evil characters, though, so I couldn't enjoy them. Often, trying to play a good character, I felt like I was being forced to play a pretty banal and shallow character. I didn't feel that way in BG2.

That may well explain why different people have such different views of it.

Better RPG than Fallout? No. Better game overall? Hell, yes!

I wouldn't go that far. I'd say I enjoyed the first Fallout as much, maybe even a little more, than BG2 (and yes, I'd agree that Fallout was considerably better -as an RPG-). But I thought BG2 was better than Fallout 2 in most ways. Irenicus was an IMMENSELY better final villain than President Dick Richardson, ffs, and while unlike most people around here I don't say "If you disagree with me you're an idiot" all that often, in that case, yeah, absolutely, if you think President Dick Richardson was a more believable and well portrayed villain than Irenicus, you probably are an idiot.

Qwinn

 

[Longshanks]

Seriously overrated.
I can't believe there are people out there who really think that BG2 is a better RPG than Arcanum or Fallout.

Better RPG than Fallout? No. Better game overall? Hell, yes!

That's hell no! to both for me, same goes with Arcanum v BG2.

 

[Hamster]

Seriously overrated.
I can't believe there are people out there who really think that BG2 is a better RPG than Arcanum or Fallout.

Better RPG than Fallout? No. Better game overall? Hell, yes!

That's hell no! to both for me, same goes with Arcanum v BG2.

Since i played Arcanum a very long time ago it's hard for me to properly compare it, but i finished replaying Fallout half an hour ago. Many aspects of the game are broken or mediocre. Combat is bad, exploring the gameworld is not very interesting, party system is fucked up, dialogues are nothing spectacular, etc.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Seriously overrated.
I can't believe there are people out there who really think that BG2 is a better RPG than Arcanum or Fallout.

Better RPG than Fallout? No. Better game overall? Hell, yes!

Better RPG-Better Game?

Stop making such arbitrary distinctions. The last one letter of RPG is the only one that matters.

Nobody ever says "It's a bad RTS but a good game."

 

[Qwinn]

Nobody ever says "It's a bad RTS but a good game."

Heh, I hear variations on that said about lots of different games around here. Fallout 3, for example (at least among those not overwhelmed by Bethesda-hate).

Qwinn

 

[Drog Black Tooth]

Qwinn,
I'm not sure I understand you. Not enough personality, hmm? Perhaps you wanted those lines that lead to the same response, but are slightly different for the sake of LARPing (or alignment changes at best)? In that case, yes, Arcanum doesn't have many of these. And it's a good thing. Almost all choices in Arcanum have actual consequences.

 

[Longshanks]

GTA: San Andreas was a bad RTS, but a p. good game.
The Dark Eye was a good piece of interactive ficion or Adventure, but a p. bad game as it lacks interactivity.

Fallout is a great RPG and a great game.
BG2 is a poor RPG but an average or just above average game.

 

[Black]

Seriously overrated.
I can't believe there are people out there who really think that BG2 is a better RPG than Arcanum or Fallout.

Better RPG than Fallout? No. Better game overall? Hell, yes!

I thought BG 1 and 2 are considered RPGs (yeah, that's stupid, I know) and that's why a game that's a better RPG than BG2 is automatically a better game.
Also, maybe Enclave was worse villain than Irenicus but imo Irenicus (lol revenge!) was far worse than the Master.
And Kerghan is basically upgraded Master!

 

[Hamster]

I thought BG 1 and 2 are considered RPGs (yeah, that's stupid, I know) and that's why a game that's a better RPG than BG2 is automatically a better game.

If you don't know what constitutes a role-playing aspect of the game than i cannot help you.

 

[Hamster]

Fallout is a great RPG and a great game.

Care to explain what parts of this game are great other than role-playing, i.e. choices and consequences? Combat? Exploring? Party system?

 

[Qwinn]

Almost all choices in Arcanum have actual consequences.

I'm not seeing that it has that many more than BG2, I'm really not. I've listed a whole bunch of significant consequences in BG2, and those are just what I remember off the top of my head. Most quests in BG2 had an evil or a good path, just like Arcanum, and very often you chose that path within dialogue. Thinking further about it - the Copper Coronet slaver quest has lots of good and evil dialogue choices, with significantly different consequences depending on which path you take. And there's choosing between the two families in Trademeet, or helping the mayor. And oh yeah, when I was talking about strongholds, there's three different quest chains depending on if you're a good cleric, neutral cleric, or evil cleric. There's also multiple ways to handle getting into Spellhold once you arrive into Brynnlaw. Shit, I can think of tons more. What do you guys -want-, exactly, and what is there so much -more- of in Arcanum?

About the only place I can really remember where it stuck out that the answers you give don't make any difference is confronting the Harpers in the Harper Hold... but that was -explicitly part of the plot- at that point.

Qwinn

 

[Black]

I thought BG 1 and 2 are considered RPGs (yeah, that's stupid, I know) and that's why a game that's a better RPG than BG2 is automatically a better game.

If you don't know what constitutes a role-playing aspect of the game than i cannot help you.

I do know and that's why I'm surprised when people call BG "one of the best cRPGs".

 

[1eyedking]

Baldur's Gate II was meh. After having designed so many adventures for D&D, BG2 came off as uninspired to me. It had that certain isometric-D&D-on-PC flair, but that was it.

 

[Liberal]

The last one letter of RPG is the only one that matters.

The first one letter of RPG is the only one that matters.

 

[Andhaira]

BG2>>Aacnum. Sorry, they are both great rpg's but BG2 is EPIC. it makes you think.

Oh and its got much better presentation unlike arcanum which came out AFTER BG2but for some reason had much worse sprites/graphics, animations, broken combat, broken interface, lower rezo, etc etc.