Which game of the new "batch" of tacticools is the best?

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Licorice if you liked Fantasy General and Panzer General then you might want to check out Open General or Battle for Westnoth.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Are any of these new games difficult in any way or are they all just larpy going through the motions to feel good and watch the numbers go up type deals?

Troubleshooter is an unusually lengthy game in which the difficulty tends to increase even as you acquire new player-characters and more capabilities from the intricate character-customization system. Also probably the best game of 2020, in any genre.
Might seem easy for the first dozen hours, at least, though.

 

[Nutmeg]

I found Into the Breach much easier than ironman X-COM.

X-COM 1994 or 2012?

I haven't played the latter so I don't know.

The former though is pretty darn mindless once you learn it. You just go through the same motions for each of the four mission types. Once you learn the motions, the battle is really won at the strategic level by making sure you have the right counters for the evolving threat, which really just means learning what research to prioritize (basically fusion weapons then psi) and how to build bases. Aside from coming in unprepared, the only way to lose an actual battle is either extreme luckshit (getting btfo'd as you exit your craft on a terror mission) or not being patient enough hunting that one last alien (although you rarely lose the battle that way, just put yourself behind strategically cause you let some of your best soldiers die).

Due to its sandbox structure, the game doesn't have ranking or any real scoring either, which is also IMO a big source of mindlessness as the game sees no difference between boring super patient smoke grenade cover map sweeps and something more efficient and harder to pull off.

Don't get me wrong, X-COM is a game I deeply loved, but thinking about it in terms of the intellectual challenge it provides, beyond the initial learning curve, it comes up very short.

 

[Nutmeg]

Licorice if you liked Fantasy General and Panzer General then you might want to check out Open General or Battle for Westnoth.

I've played Wesnoth. It's good. Best MoM clone is Falcom's Vantage Master. Now there's a difficult game.

 

[Nutmeg]

Are any of these new games difficult in any way or are they all just larpy going through the motions to feel good and watch the numbers go up type deals?

Troubleshooter is an unusually lengthy game in which the difficulty tends to increase even as you acquire new player-characters and more capabilities from the intricate character-customization system. Also probably the best game of 2020, in any genre.
Might seem easy for the first dozen hours, at least, though.

How is the game structured? You said earlier it's missions, does that mean linear, or branching, or ...?

Is there any way to grind (usually a red flag)?

It seems like there's no mission ranking, turn limits or anything like that, which is also a red flag. Is that true?

 

[Grunker]

Are any of these new games difficult in any way or are they all just larpy going through the motions to feel good and watch the numbers go up type deals?

Troubleshooter is an unusually lengthy game in which the difficulty tends to increase even as you acquire new player-characters and more capabilities from the intricate character-customization system. Also probably the best game of 2020, in any genre.
Might seem easy for the first dozen hours, at least, though.

I found Urtuk to be the most genuinely difficult experience in recent times, though Troubleshooter certainly isn’t easy

 

[Galdred]

I found Into the Breach much easier than ironman X-COM.

X-COM 1994 or 2012?

I haven't played the latter so I don't know.

The former though is pretty darn mindless once you learn it. You just go through the same motions for each of the four mission types. Once you learn the motions, the battle is really won at the strategic level by making sure you have the right counters for the evolving threat, which really just means learning what research to prioritize (basically fusion weapons then psi) and how to build bases. Aside from coming in unprepared, the only way to lose an actual battle is either extreme luckshit (getting btfo'd as you exit your craft on a terror mission) or not being patient enough hunting that one last alien (although you rarely lose the battle that way, just put yourself behind strategically cause you let some of your best soldiers die).

Due to its sandbox structure, the game doesn't have ranking or any real scoring either, which is also IMO a big source of mindlessness as the game sees no difference between boring super patient smoke grenade cover map sweeps and something more efficient and harder to pull off.

Don't get me wrong, X-COM is a game I deeply loved, but thinking about it in terms of the intellectual challenge it provides, beyond the initial learning curve, it comes up very short.

The former one is formulaic indeed, and I agree about the lack of time pressure issue, which makes being patient way too important. But still, you usually have to make decisions on the fly when things start not getting your way (in terror missions mostly).

The newer ones could be of interest to you actually:
They are much more "gamey" (always choose one mission among 3. The aliens always are in "pods" of 3-5, and pods won't support each other), but the cover/flanking system is definitely puzzlier, and XCOM 2 has time pressure all over the place. XCOM 1 doesn't really, except for terror missions and bomb defusal (and you don't really have a strong reason to save more than 1 civilian in Terror missions in NuXCOM1).

But I would definitely recommend you to get the 2nd one on sale. The first one(2012) is usually considered better, but at the highest difficulty level (Impossible Ironman), memorizing the pod locations and layouts of all the maps was more important than anything else (while the second one has randomized missions).

Edit: However, all the nuXCOM also suffer from the same issues as the earlier ones: the difficulty is frontloaded, and they become easier as time goes (with some spikes as new opponents are introduced, but the late game is still much easier than the early game).

You also have XCOM:Chimera Squad, which totally gutters the permadeath and geoscape, but has more "balanced" fights (as all are presets, and they removed the variable number of opponents by turning it into a succession of rooms to storm).

 

[minakami]

But anyway, I prefer the more puzzle like ones (e.g. Fire emblem, Advance wars, Into the breach) because they are more intellectually stimulating than larpy ones like the original X-COMs (which I loved when I was a kid but don't care for much as an adult).

Fire Emblem is pretty larpy too tho.
I would recommend Tastee: Lethal Tactics, Invisible inc, Gloomhaven and Trials of Fire if you want some puzzly tacatical games.

 

[Galdred]

But anyway, I prefer the more puzzle like ones (e.g. Fire emblem, Advance wars, Into the breach) because they are more intellectually stimulating than larpy ones like the original X-COMs (which I loved when I was a kid but don't care for much as an adult).

Fire Emblem is pretty larpy too tho.
I would recommend Tastee: Lethal Tactics, Invisible inc, Gloomhaven and Trials of Fire if you want some puzzly tacatical games.

I haven't played Tastee Lethal Tactics, and Invisible Inc had already been recommended, but Gloomhaven and Trials of Fire are really great suggestions indeed, and should fit your requirements pretty well.

 

[Nutmeg]

Thanks for all the discussion dudes. I'm really out of the loop when it comes to tactics games newer than ~2010.

I had Unity of Command on my radar and that's about it.

Fire Emblem is pretty larpy too tho.

The ones where you can grind like 2 and 8 yeah. Those suck. But the ones where you can't are good if you play for rank, IMO.

Shout out to Gungnir. Still haven't managed to 3 star nightmare that. Very innovative game in terms of time keeping and I wonder why no one copied its systems.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

reasons for not playing templar battleforce:
???

the only issue I had w/ that game was that on the bigger maps moving across them took forever since even 'exploring' was turn based basically and could go the 'wrong way' up some hall way and have to turn back and then take half an hour just walking across the screen fighting little monster things on the way sometimes, it was tedious at times how long it took to move

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

How is the game structured? You said earlier it's missions, does that mean linear, or branching, or ...?

Is there any way to grind (usually a red flag)?

It seems like there's no mission ranking, turn limits or anything like that, which is also a red flag. Is that true?

Troubleshooter's mission structure is generally linear, though many missions are optional and you might receive multiple new missions at a time, so it isn't simply forcing you to always complete a specific mission. Since the game allows you to replay missions, it is possible to grind, but this should only be necessary if you're stuck on a mandatory story-related mission. The game does rank your performance at the conclusion of every mission, and many missions have some kind of time limit built in due to the circumstances of the particular mission, though the majority of missions lack have a time limit; also you might have limited time before more enemies arrive or some other kind of event occurs.

 

[Grunker]

Grinding doesn’t really help that much on higher difficulties anyway since they level scale.

Regarding time limits, this game doesn’t need them like XCOM did. It’s not an overwatch-your-way-forward at all, it’s much more an RPG. Most if not all of your characters won’t even be able to overwatch anyway.

 

[Lhynn]

You cant really grind levels in troubleshooter (Unless you tweak the difficulty options for that), its structured in such a way that higher level missions unlock as you unlock the story, and that the experience reward for low level enemies is rather small. What you may find yourself farming is masteries, to craft them you specific ones, and while the system is incredibly flexble, you will be needing so many in the endgame that you may have to repeat a few violent cases (Longer missions with many bosses and the option to retreat after fulfilling objectives. Usually very hard when first unlocked and until you more or less get the hang of how the mission plays out) to craft enough high end masteries for everyone, or to get masteries for your monsters or robots.

 

[Demo.Graph]

An update, I guess.
I've tried Airships. While the premise is nice (steampunk airships nuking each other in tacticool, lego-style ship editor included), the realization is poor.
Tactical maps are small and support maybe 5-6 units from each side comfortably. You can't really maneuver with movement or fire. The landscape is tactically insignificant.
Limited maps make ship specialization redundant. There're maybe 3 ship specs (bomber/sieger, gunboat and boarder) and they're based primarily on a weapon balance, not an operational / economical one.
Operational landscape is absent. There're no vision or logistics systems both on tactical map and on the strategic one. Strategical layer is in a beta stage at best.

Also, I found that:
- without the third dimension, ship models are created in a strange way and "feel wrong";
- interface is clumsy;
- ship parts are unbalanced - there're significant incentives to create one gigaship instead of the fleet of small craft. Probably because the dev had realized that his maps are too small for a proper tactical wargame and adjusted the balance accordingly. Also baloons and sails get obsolete too soon.

Soundtrack is nice, but gets repetitive too soon.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

This should come into EA sometime this autumn.

 

[Alienman]

Looks interesting. Uses AP and everything. I wonder if there is any interrupt mechanic.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

This does have Steam demo, but I'm already going to try 4 different ones, so no time for this.

 

[Parsimonious cook]

This does have Steam demo, but I'm already going to try 4 different ones, so no time for this.

Tried out the demo (which is more like a proof of concept, there is only one very small mission). I like it, it is basicaly the OG XCOM except you arrest criminals instead of aliens. Of course this is a bit of a problem too, since XCOM would not be that great if it was just about the tactical layer - there are supposed to be some strategic parts too (your operators should gain better stats through doing stuff in missions), but apparently nothing major.

You can select equipment for the operators prior to the mission (there are multiple primary and secondary weapons and multiple types of body armors - heavier ones decreas APs, but protect better - I guess full game will have more stuff). During the mission itself you move the team members just like in XCOM, there is overwatch fire etc, however this being a SWAT game, you are supposed to solve the situations without injuring anyone if at all possible (ie like in SWAT4, you get penalties for injuring/killing suspects and there is a minimum passing score for each mission). Each team member can use the SWAT4 style camera to look through the doors, you have options to open/lockpick/kick/breach the doors.

Suspects and civilians are usualy not cooperative, you can shout at them to give up (each shout decreases their morale a bit, its more effective if you shout at short distance and the target is not looking at you), use a peper spray or flashbang. You can of course shoot as well, but there will be a severe penalty for shooting without warning.

So basicaly its XCOM take on SWAT4. The game systems are simple but functional, the game will stand and fall with the mission design. I got this on wishlist.

Edit: just checked the Steam forums and the game is apparently being made by a single indie dev - I guess one should approach this with limited expectations.

 

[Thorgeim]

this is giving me some serious Police Quest: SWAT vibes, the original first one where you had to use hand signals and go through trainings, I was 11 when it came out, didnt know much English and still played the game every day hoping to get through some of the missions and get my sniper training done. Even the music is quite fitting here. Single indie dev thing is unfortunatey, would be good to have a good modern game like this.