lvl 2 Blue Slime
Educated
The real question is would PoE have been as successful as BG3 if PoE was fully 3d and had the camera zoom into your characters during dialogue.
Larian hasn't lacked for resources since the first Divinity: Original Sin.Sven was trying to remake Ultima 7 since Divine Divinity which while not one of the best games ever made is still a pretty good game. His studio A sucks mainly because of the lack of resources.
What reviews have you read? The ones on codex? Normie reviewers "loved" PoE when it came out. Mostly because they didn't know any better. Felt like it's good even if they don't quite comprehend it. Like a pretencious tv show.PoE was seen as a let down after all the hype it had
RTwP is not a problem, the success of the Pathfinder games by Owlcat is proof of that. You can clearly still make RTwP rpgs with decent sales numbers if the whole package is good.Obsidian took a fundamentally flawed system (RTwP) that's only revered due to nostalgia by a small percentage of gamers, and claimed that they could make it better. They did succeed at that too imo, but that didn't matter because the end product was still mediocre at best. Some of the old schoolers who liked the old games despite their flaws weren't there anymore, for one reason or the other. Casuals (i.e. the people who actually determine whether your game is commercially successful or not) would rather play something like Dragon Age: Origins. They failed to ride that initial kickstarter craze, and what they did for the second game didn't matter, as it rarely does.
Larian took a tested an proven system that's usually thought of as "boring" by casuals because of them never actually trying it. They focused on the "fun" aspects of the game during their marketing campaign, like the humour and being able to spend quality time with your partner. In the meantime they made it obvious where the inspiration was coming from and filled their game with little homages. Casuals didn't care about the flaws because they were in it for the fun, and the old schoolers were happy to shill the game with passion because it scratched their itch properly. Rest is history.
So it was essentially a matter of the smart guy at the head of Larian making good decisions, and the opportunist guy at the head of Obsidian making uneducated ones.
If PoE was made & played like DAO it woulda been much more succesful yes. Wouldn't have been as successful as BG3 cos the budget/production quality isn't even comparable, come to think of it a DAO-like gaym would also have been much more expensive to make.The real question is would PoE have been as successful as BG3 if PoE was fully 3d and had the camera zoom into your characters during dialogue.
I didn't say RTwP was the problem, only that it was flawed. If people enjoyed something flawed years ago, they can enjoy it now too. I also played and enjoyed Kingmaker as a RTwP game until that absolute genius came up with the TB mod.RTwP is not a problem, the success of the Pathfinder games by Owlcat is proof of that. You can clearly still make RTwP rpgs with decent sales numbers if the whole package is good.Obsidian took a fundamentally flawed system (RTwP) that's only revered due to nostalgia by a small percentage of gamers, and claimed that they could make it better. They did succeed at that too imo, but that didn't matter because the end product was still mediocre at best. Some of the old schoolers who liked the old games despite their flaws weren't there anymore, for one reason or the other. Casuals (i.e. the people who actually determine whether your game is commercially successful or not) would rather play something like Dragon Age: Origins. They failed to ride that initial kickstarter craze, and what they did for the second game didn't matter, as it rarely does.
Larian took a tested an proven system that's usually thought of as "boring" by casuals because of them never actually trying it. They focused on the "fun" aspects of the game during their marketing campaign, like the humour and being able to spend quality time with your partner. In the meantime they made it obvious where the inspiration was coming from and filled their game with little homages. Casuals didn't care about the flaws because they were in it for the fun, and the old schoolers were happy to shill the game with passion because it scratched their itch properly. Rest is history.
So it was essentially a matter of the smart guy at the head of Larian making good decisions, and the opportunist guy at the head of Obsidian making uneducated ones.
Like a dame approaching the wall and trying to relive the brief moment when she was prom queen. Pretty sad honestly.Obsidian is still too hung up on its Fallout NV days. They can neither let go of it, nor do they have the will or incentive to innovate and carve out their own niche. With Avowed, they'll now ostensibly attempt to make a Skyrim clone. That pushes them one year (!) forward. Bravo.
Probably, but I think BG3's whimsical style and anime-styled characters are what made it click for normies, PoE was way too bland and gritty for most fantasy RPG fans.If PoE was made & played like DAO it woulda been much more succesful yes. Wouldn't have been as successful as BG3 cos the budget/production quality isn't even comparable, come to think of it a DAO-like gaym would also have been much more expensive to make.The real question is would PoE have been as successful as BG3 if PoE was fully 3d and had the camera zoom into your characters during dialogue.
What is or isn't a snoozefest is utterly subjective. For the normie masses a turn-based game is a snoozefest by default.DOS2 - standalone sequel with quirky environmental combat and coop that will attract even casual players who aren't normally into cRPGs.
PoE2 - direct sequel to a snoozefest of a game that almost no one completed, zero appeal to people who aren't into cRPGs.
Your co-op point is valid but DOS1 had co-op, even local co-op IIRC, and PoE was still the bigger thing.
Then we agree mostly. I just found it strange that you mention RTwP so explicitly, when the choice to use RTwP it is not the main reason that PoE1/2 failed to meet expectations. However, I disagree that they made it better. The mechanics and combat are not designed well for RTwP. Sometimes less is more and PoE's convoluted systems are good example for that.I didn't say RTwP was the problem, only that it was flawed. If people enjoyed something flawed years ago, they can enjoy it now too. I also played and enjoyed Kingmaker as a RTwP game until that absolute genius came up with the TB mod.RTwP is not a problem, the success of the Pathfinder games by Owlcat is proof of that. You can clearly still make RTwP rpgs with decent sales numbers if the whole package is good.Obsidian took a fundamentally flawed system (RTwP) that's only revered due to nostalgia by a small percentage of gamers, and claimed that they could make it better. They did succeed at that too imo, but that didn't matter because the end product was still mediocre at best. Some of the old schoolers who liked the old games despite their flaws weren't there anymore, for one reason or the other. Casuals (i.e. the people who actually determine whether your game is commercially successful or not) would rather play something like Dragon Age: Origins. They failed to ride that initial kickstarter craze, and what they did for the second game didn't matter, as it rarely does.
Larian took a tested an proven system that's usually thought of as "boring" by casuals because of them never actually trying it. They focused on the "fun" aspects of the game during their marketing campaign, like the humour and being able to spend quality time with your partner. In the meantime they made it obvious where the inspiration was coming from and filled their game with little homages. Casuals didn't care about the flaws because they were in it for the fun, and the old schoolers were happy to shill the game with passion because it scratched their itch properly. Rest is history.
So it was essentially a matter of the smart guy at the head of Larian making good decisions, and the opportunist guy at the head of Obsidian making uneducated ones.
What made me like Kingmaker wasn't the game being RTwP. But the RTwP aspect of it didn't annoy me too much either, because it was familiar. Can't say the same for PoE.
PoE lacked soul (heh) in terms of writing and the story. But there are very successful games that are even shittier in those.
They made the RTwP part itself better as in they improved how it plays and made it easier to control your characters and understand what's going on (barring the exaggerated visuals)Then we agree mostly. I just found it strange that you mention RTwP so explicitly, when the choice to use RTwP it is not the main reason that PoE1/2 failed to meet expectations. However, I disagree that they made it better. The mechanics and combat are not designed well for RTwP. Sometimes less is more and PoE's convoluted systems are good example for that.I didn't say RTwP was the problem, only that it was flawed. If people enjoyed something flawed years ago, they can enjoy it now too. I also played and enjoyed Kingmaker as a RTwP game until that absolute genius came up with the TB mod.RTwP is not a problem, the success of the Pathfinder games by Owlcat is proof of that. You can clearly still make RTwP rpgs with decent sales numbers if the whole package is good.Obsidian took a fundamentally flawed system (RTwP) that's only revered due to nostalgia by a small percentage of gamers, and claimed that they could make it better. They did succeed at that too imo, but that didn't matter because the end product was still mediocre at best. Some of the old schoolers who liked the old games despite their flaws weren't there anymore, for one reason or the other. Casuals (i.e. the people who actually determine whether your game is commercially successful or not) would rather play something like Dragon Age: Origins. They failed to ride that initial kickstarter craze, and what they did for the second game didn't matter, as it rarely does.
Larian took a tested an proven system that's usually thought of as "boring" by casuals because of them never actually trying it. They focused on the "fun" aspects of the game during their marketing campaign, like the humour and being able to spend quality time with your partner. In the meantime they made it obvious where the inspiration was coming from and filled their game with little homages. Casuals didn't care about the flaws because they were in it for the fun, and the old schoolers were happy to shill the game with passion because it scratched their itch properly. Rest is history.
So it was essentially a matter of the smart guy at the head of Larian making good decisions, and the opportunist guy at the head of Obsidian making uneducated ones.
What made me like Kingmaker wasn't the game being RTwP. But the RTwP aspect of it didn't annoy me too much either, because it was familiar. Can't say the same for PoE.
PoE lacked soul (heh) in terms of writing and the story. But there are very successful games that are even shittier in those.
Not that amazing/weird considering Obsidian has always been a B-studio getting other developers' sloppy seconds. Sometimes the results were good (New Vegas), sometimes heavily flawed but with some redeeming features (KotoR2), but usually just plain mediocre (NWN2, Dungeon Siege 3).I just find it amazing/weird that Owlcat (an unknown Russia studio) just comes out and washes away everything Obsidian did it, except New Vegas I guess.
How's PoE system unintuitive or convoluted? I never understood this complaint tbh.Systems-wise PoE is also completely unintuitive. Even RPG veterans have to read all the descriptions of attributes and skills because none of them work like you'd expect - remember the buff wizards meme. Hurr durr strength increases all damage including magic because balance. PoE's systems are highly abstract, based on Josh's ideas of balance, trying to prevent minmaxing, etc.
Having to look at tool tips to get an idea of what stats do is the opposite of intuitive.How's PoE system unintuitive or convoluted? I never understood this complaint tbh.
All stats are presented clearly on the char creation screen and you see that e.g. +1 DEX will give you +3% action speed, +5 reflex defense etc. Can't get any more clear then that.
Show me some good cRPG with relatively good/complex system where you don't have to look at stat description AT ALL to know what each of them do.Having to look at tool tips to get an idea of what stats do is the opposite of intuitive.How's PoE system unintuitive or convoluted? I never understood this complaint tbh.
All stats are presented clearly on the char creation screen and you see that e.g. +1 DEX will give you +3% action speed, +5 reflex defense etc. Can't get any more clear then that.
I dumped my Dexterity the first time I played an IE game because I assumed higher AC was better. What does Wisdom do for your Cleric? Well the character creation screen usually doesn't tell you. (I'm aware that this stuff is in the manual, but how is that any more intuitive than what Pillars does?) A lot of people take their D&D knowledge for granted.Show me some good cRPG with relatively good/complex system where you don't have to look at stat description AT ALL to know what each of them do.Having to look at tool tips to get an idea of what stats do is the opposite of intuitive.How's PoE system unintuitive or convoluted? I never understood this complaint tbh.
All stats are presented clearly on the char creation screen and you see that e.g. +1 DEX will give you +3% action speed, +5 reflex defense etc. Can't get any more clear then that.
What happened to RTFM? Do we need everything to be self-explanatory now, without even bothering to read like one line stat description?
In any decent game you have to check somewhere what does each stat/skill affects. Hell, when I played BG1 for the first time, totally unfamiliar with DnD rules, I thought that STR governs only extra dmg and DEX is for melee +to-hit bonus.
If everything can flatly scale off all the stats things tend to become balanced™. For example I remember that spells felt like "attacks with effects" at the time - they could miss like attacks and had generic damage due to the fact they were made to scale.Show me some good cRPG with relatively good/complex system where you don't have to look at stat description AT ALL to know what each of them do.Having to look at tool tips to get an idea of what stats do is the opposite of intuitive.How's PoE system unintuitive or convoluted? I never understood this complaint tbh.
All stats are presented clearly on the char creation screen and you see that e.g. +1 DEX will give you +3% action speed, +5 reflex defense etc. Can't get any more clear then that.
What happened to RTFM? Do we need everything to be self-explanatory now, without even bothering to read like one line stat description?
In any decent game you have to check somewhere what does each stat/skill affects. Hell, when I played BG1 for the first time, totally unfamiliar with DnD rules, I thought that STR governs only extra dmg and DEX is for melee +to-hit bonus.
Eh, never could into Paradox grandies. Give me some dumb blast like Starcraft or C&C over EU or Victoria any time.RTwP is good for strategies and wargames. RTwP strategy > RTS