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Why do people hate Oblivion so much?

Zed Duke of Banville

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being overall decline when compared with Morrowind
I'm saying this as someone who's put hundreds of hours into Morrowind and buzzed about it on the Codex endlessly, even putting it in my top games list years ago:

Morrowind itself is an almost comical level of decline, especially compared with Daggerfall. It just gets away with it because of the setting and superb art direction. Barring the level scaling - which absolutely is the ultimate failure of Oblivion - I'm honestly not seeing the significant difference between it and Oblivion on a gameplay level.
On the subject of Morrowind vs. Oblivion, there is a lengthy list of failings of the latter relative to the former:
  • Comprehensive creature-leveling such that all monsters and NPCs are set at the same level as the PC, with weaker types of monsters disappearing after the character gains enough levels, and stronger types of monsters not appearing when the character is low-level
  • Comprehensive item-leveling whereby a high-level PC will not only encounter similarly high-level bandits but said bandits will have random pieces of extremely expensive armor and weapons, while a low-level PC will never find weapons/armor of such powerful material; or a weapon on display in a glass case in a castle will be a worthless replica if the PC is low-level but the real thing after the PC gains enough levels.
  • A clunky interface, which was clearly designed for consoles, in sharp contrast to Morrowind's sleek menus.
  • Reduction in the number of joinable guilds/factions offering many quests from 10 in Morrowind to 4 in Oblivion, keeping the more generic ones (Fighters/Mages/Thieves guilds)
  • Factions now centered around quest lines, with 2 of the 4 (Fighters Guild and Mages Guild) being poorly written and boring
  • Full voice-acting for dialogue, which necessitated a drastic reduction in the amount of dialogue per NPC, most of whom have one comment about themselves or their city to offer and nothing else
  • Poor writing in general, with dialogue and books less interesting than in Morrowind
  • Minigames for speechcraft and lockpicking
  • Elimination of certain kinds of items, such as thrown weapons, crossbows, and spears
  • Reduction in the number of skills to the point where axes are considered blunt weapons
  • Regenerating magicka, which effectively means that all health can be easily regained after each combat, thus removing much of the logistics that existed previously
  • Elimination of different physiques (and animations) for Argonians and Khajiits
  • Both in-game and out-of-game world maps that offer far less information than their Morrowind equivalents
  • Automatic fast-travel to any location that's already been visited
  • A quest compass that points to your next destination, the use of which is made necessary by the combination of uninformative journal entries and an inability to ask directions
  • A lack of aesthetics, especially compared to Morrowind's brilliant art direction
  • A generic, medieval fantasy grab-bag setting, without even the coherence offered by Daggerfall's Iliac Bay region much less the spectacular sui generis setting of Morrowind
  • A dull, poorly-plotted main quest, with the only plane of Oblivion featured in the base game (except at the very end) being a generic hellscape with little variation
  • A half-baked action-oriented combat system so that success in combat depends greatly on the player's physical skill, yet is boring and tedious

If you go back to around the time of Morrowind's release, you can see people on the Codex ripping the absolute shit out of it, both as a standalone game and when compared with Daggerfall. I'm not entirely sure when or why the Morrowind veneration in popular culture started.
Morrowind was the Codex's #1 RPG of 2002 and in 2010 was voted the #4 RPG of the 2000s.

Dice-roll combat doesn't work in a real-time first person action game IMO.
Morrowind, as with Arena and Daggerfall before it, does not have action-based combat, but instead a combat system with mechanics dependent on the character's skill, including to-hit rolls. It wasn't until Oblivion that Bethesda Softworks made an effort to make combat more action-oriented.
 

BruceVC

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Despite Dagoth Ur being called a threat and the terror of the sleepers and the corpus disease, you don't really see it affecting the major settlements all that much. No NPCs suddenly attack you like the Mythic Dawn agents do in Oblivion, there's no attacks by ashzombies or the like on towns, no NPCs slowly turn into sleepers, you can pretty much just ignore him.
Over a dozen named NPCs become dreamers over time and go from threatening you to outright assaulting you as they deteriorate. You also get attacked by them in your sleep, and if you mention this to Caius he'll advise you to sleep outside of cities. Any dreamers you don't kill will thank you after you free them and tell others how you helped, boosting your reputation in the province.
That literally has not happened to me.
I just received the dialogue that they are a sleeper and to come to Red Mountain, but after that nothing.
It's great though that I'm mistaken; that is a nice little detail.
You know what they say " if a tree falls down in a forest and no one sees it that doesnt mean it doesnt make a noise " :cool:
 

octavius

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Another huge decline in Oblivion was how 90% of the VA budget was spent on Patrick Stewart, and the rest being of much lower quality than the VA'ing in MW.

The best thing about Oblivion remains its moddability.
 

Bohrain

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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Even in terms of moddability it pales in comparison to Morrowind and Skyrim. It's much more unstable and you need to change more fundamental things like leveled lists and face meshes.
 

Bohrain

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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
It's more of an issue of lack of voice direction than the quality of voice acting itself. They were just reading random lines with no context so every delivery sounds the same.
 

CthuluIsSpy

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What's funny is that there are mechanics and features in Oblivion that would have been great in Morrowind.
- Oblivion introduces horses. Some sort of mount would have been very useful in MW. Oblivion also introduced Fast Travel, which completely rendered the horses they introduced obsolete. Amazing job Bethesda

-Oblivion's Alchemy menu is better than Morrowind's. Doing Alchemy in Morrowind is a pain in the arse because you have to do so much scrolling, the box closes everytime you select an ingredient so you have to do even more scrolling

-Quick casting, which was so good the Code Patch added it to Morrowind.

- It's easier to find the potion you want to use in Oblivion, because in Morrowind they all look the fucking same

- The aforementioned AI routines and behaviors in Oblivion.

- Better side quests. The side quests in Morrowind tend to be pretty dull. Even the Hortator part of the main quest is pretty boring.

If you were to combine the best aspects of Oblivion and Morrowind you'd get something Transcendent. Instead we got Skyrim which has neither of them and makes what remains worse and barebones, requiring the player to fill the gaps with mods. Because why bother putting in effort into your product, when you have a loyal fanbase of patsies willing to do the work for you?

:keepmymoney:
 

Sykar

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"My lord here is the cheese and ham sandwich you ordered!"
"Excellent, become my most trusted advisor and agent, fuck all those others who have undergone most difficult missions for me and earned my trust over years upon years!"
 

Hag

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I'm not entirely sure when or why the Morrowind veneration in popular culture started.
Pretty sure it comes from people like myself to whom it has been the first real exposure to RPGs. When you come from an earlier Daggerfall/M&M/Wiz/Ultima/Muds/etc. background it is easy to see the cracks in the seams and despair at all the terrible flaws.
But imagine you are from that numerous generation, the first that grew up with computers as common house appliance and video games as a nerdy but widespread hobby, and you discover Morrowind out of nothing, and furthermore as a teen when you are easily hooked on fantasy ? You have the greatest fucking time of your life and you share it on the early 00s internet with others guys having a blast and everybody mods and rejoices.

Yeah the systems suck but what the hell, you can break in houses to steal silverware and flee by the roof to the sunset. It is fun. It had no barrier of entry. It was every fantasy novel reader wet dream incarnate. Despite its terrible state at release and litany of bugs people got hooked on it in a way that would only be replaced by WoW who, incidentally, kind of split the Morrowind fanbase.
 
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Lemming42

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On the subject of Morrowind vs. Oblivion, there is a lengthy list of failings of the latter relative to the former:
I agree with a lot of these. I would note that I've already agreed the world of Oblivion is very boring and that Morrowind's is self-evidently better, which covers many of these points. To pick out some that I don't agree with though:
Reduction in the number of joinable guilds/factions offering many quests from 10 in Morrowind to 4 in Oblivion, keeping the more generic ones (Fighters/Mages/Thieves guilds)
This is obviously true, but a lot of the factions in Morrowind offered incredibly boring cookie-cutter fetch/kill quests. Oblivion has less joinable factions, but the ones that remain offer far more interesting* content than Morrowind (with all the usual disclaimers about how everything in Oblivion is in some way shit).

*interesting in terms of quest premise and structure, not necessarily in terms of worldbuilding or loredump-iness

Full voice-acting for dialogue, which necessitated a drastic reduction in the amount of dialogue per NPC, most of whom have one comment about themselves or their city to offer and nothing else
In Morrowind, many NPCs have no unique dialogue at all, and many others have one or two unique lines just like in Oblivion, the rest being generic wiki dialogue. There's no real difference between some generic Oblivion NPC who says "Hello, I'm Dickius Headius, and I work at the Bandit Camp. Let me mark it on your map" and, say, Eldafire from Seyda Neen, who as far as I know has no unique dialogue except "go clear out the smugglers" (which I think is her "Little Advice" or "Little Secret" dialogue).

Automatic fast-travel to any location that's already been visited
This is a tough one - I think there's advantages and disadvantages to both systems. I've played Oblivion and Skyrim with mods that disable fast travel and to be honest it just renders the whole experience very tedious. I think they were ultimately right to allow for fast travel to all previously visited locations. Having to walk to and from Silt Strider ports or docks in Morrowind does definitely give the whole game a better sense of place and feeling of verisimilitude, and does a lot to make the player consider how they'll reach each destination, but it's essentially just LARPy busywork since there's no real travel resources the player can deplete or anything. And again, the complete non-reactivity and stillness of the world means that the experience of walking to fast travel networks gives that "empty MMO where I'm the only player" feeling after a short while.

Morrowind, as with Arena and Daggerfall before it, does not have action-based combat, but instead a combat system with mechanics dependent on the character's skill, including to-hit rolls. It wasn't until Oblivion that Bethesda Softworks made an effort to make combat more action-oriented.
I think there's an old interview about Todd specifically wanting action combat in Morrowind and coming in and fucking it all up at the last minute, hence the results. In Daggerfall the player skill/character skill disconnect feels far less egregious because your attack speed is tied completely to your actual Speed attribute and you can't really cheese everything by bunnyhopping around (though you still can to some degree). Morrowind has the incredibly stupid quick attack/power attack system, presumably there to make it feel more action-y, but the result is that you're choosing between spamming many die rolls and making one big die roll.
 

CthuluIsSpy

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Yeah, the combat in Morrowind isn't great.
Not because of the hit rolls, but because there is no point in using any attack other than the most damaging one and spamming the attack button.
Trying to use the other attack modes feel very awkward, and I don't think it was like that in Daggerfall? Didn't it work based on mouse movement rather than player movement?
 

Lemming42

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Yeah, Daggerfall and Arena have the weird mouse movement mechanic - allegedly each directional swing gives different chance to hit and damage potential. After the player chooses a direction to swing, everything comes down to the character's stats, right down to the speed of the attack animation itself.

The core criticism to be made is that most players will just rapidly flail the mouse in all directions to try and unleash some kind of Fist of the North Star barrage on enemies, but it's still not as awkward as Morrowind's IMO (or Oblivion's, for that matter).
 

Lemming42

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Just to add: I clicked this link and indeed:
sTe9vlK.png

I went looking for the old thread about the Todd interview I mentioned earlier - turns out I'd misremembered and it was actually an interview with Douglas Goodall ragging on Todd.
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/why-morrowind-sucked-the-douglas-goodall-interview.10408/
There's an old Codex thread from 2005 about it here, might make interesting reading to see what people were saying about it back then. I haven't read over it recently myself, so if it's fuill of people singing Morrowind's praises then I suppose I'm off-base, but I do seem to remember reading old threads on the Codex around the time I joined where people were shitting on the game much more openly than they often do these days - then again, we seem to have twice-yearly "Morrowind is shit" threads so maybe things haven't changed that much.

I remember finding it odd that Codexers of old were bashing a CERTIFIED CLASSIC, but now I'm thinking Morrowind's legend started to grow to its current "best game ever" heights quite a while after it came out, probably hastened along by the retrospective backlash Oblivion started to receive a few years after its release.
 
Last edited:

Bad Sector

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
There's no real difference between some generic Oblivion NPC who says "Hello, I'm Dickius Headius, and I work at the Bandit Camp. Let me mark it on your map" and, say, Eldafire from Seyda Neen, who as far as I know has no unique dialogue except "go clear out the smugglers" (which I think is her "Little Advice" or "Little Secret" dialogue).

The main difference is that Eldafire - and many other NPCs - can still give directions to local shops, inns, potential quests and important NPCs in the region and of course provide game relevant information, whereas Dickius Headius is a pointless waste of digital space (also IIRC you learn about every location "automatically" from quests no need for NPCs to mark things on the map).

The writing feels like wikipedia articles ("I am a pauper. In the province of Morrowind paupers paup around...etc...") but the dialog system is certainly not an issue nor you need unique dialog for every NPC (in fact many NPCs in Oblivion have the same non-dialog where they simply tell you their name, it only feels different because there is a voice actor reading the lines instead of being written in a text window).

If anything i'm 100% sure that the "wikipedia" feel would have been largely eliminated even if the exact same shared topics Morrowind NPCs have were still there but the responses used a more "natural" language instead of feeling like they were copy/pasted from the game's manual.

finding it odd that Codexers of old were bashing a CERTIFIED CLASSIC

I don't think there is anything odd with bashing a (then) new game, it is practically tradition to do that around here :-P
 

MWaser

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The only reason to ask for people's backgrounds in Morrowind is to find the few unique NPCs who have funny special dialogue for it.
"Oh, well, yes, Ahnassi must tell you, Ahnassi is a monk, yes, but perhaps Ahnassi is more gentle thief than a monk. Ahnassi takes things, yes, but not like some. Ahnassi spills no blood. No weapon. No fighting. Ahnassi comes and goes and is not seen. It is not easy to explain to the unclawed. A thing is precious, but not protected? That is foolish. And if Ahnassi takes this thing, it is the fool's fault, not Ahnassi. That is the way of my people."
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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Another huge decline in Oblivion was how 90% of the VA budget was spent on Patrick Stewart, and the rest being of much lower quality than the VA'ing in MW.
Yes, it would be ludicrous for a CRPG to spend a large part of its budget on celebrity voice-acting, especially from Patrick Stewart. :M

0lOnYY0.png

The only bad voice actors that I recall in Oblivion were the two that did the female Nords/Orcs and the female Redguards.
Female Nords and Orcs were voiced by Lynda Carter, the wife of Zenimax CEO Robert Altman, better known as Wonder Woman in the television series.

fbad8def99e76094e0c7fa7b33a060ac-1906272479.gif


- Better side quests. The side quests in Morrowind tend to be pretty dull. Even the Hortator part of the main quest is pretty boring.
Oblivion had great quests for the Dark Brotherhood, good quests for the Thieves Guild, and a handful of creative miscellaneous quests. However, the quests for the Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, and main quest-line were generally boring, which meant that any fighter- or mage-type character who wasn't an assassin would stumble across a few good quests randomly but otherwise experience lower-quality quests than generally existed for these character types in Morrowind.
 
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Female Nords and Orcs were voiced by Lynda Carter...
Cute in the 70s, but I hope she didn't quit her day job.

Maybe I just haven't heard enough of Patrick Stewart's VO but his performance in Oblivion didn't strike me as very recognizable and that alone makes him not worth the price. He sounded fine, but practically any older English actor could have given a similar performance playing Uriel. Sean Bean on the other hand was unmistakably himself as Martin.
 

CthuluIsSpy

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Another huge decline in Oblivion was how 90% of the VA budget was spent on Patrick Stewart, and the rest being of much lower quality than the VA'ing in MW.
Yes, it would be ludicrous for a CRPG to spend a large part of its budget on celebrity voice-acting, especially from Patrick Stewart. :M

0lOnYY0.png

The only bad voice actors that I recall in Oblivion were the two that did the female Nords/Orcs and the female Redguards.
Female Nords and Orcs were voiced by Lynda Carter, the wife of Zenimax CEO Robert Altman, better known as Wonder Woman in the television series.

fbad8def99e76094e0c7fa7b33a060ac-1906272479.gif


- Better side quests. The side quests in Morrowind tend to be pretty dull. Even the Hortator part of the main quest is pretty boring.
Oblivion had great quests for the Dark Brotherhood, good quests for the Thieves Guild, and a handful of creative miscellaneous quests. However, the quests for the Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, and main quest-line were generally boring, which meant that any fighter- or mage-type character who wasn't an assassin would stumble across a few good quests randomly but otherwise experience lower-quality quests than generally existed for these character types in Morrowind.
Perhaps, I thought the Mage guild quests were better than Skyrim's at least, though I never joined the fighter's guild.
Oblivion's Daedric quests were pretty good as well. Vaermina's is an acid trip.
 

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